Faith and Death

Lucid Lounge
1

Yesterday a 22 year old woman gave birth to twins in Shropshire, England. Normally this would be an incredibly happy occasion, with people celebrating new life. But there were complications, and the doctors decided that she needed a blood transfusion. There was just one problem, she was a Jehovah’s Witness. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that it’s a sin to have a blood transfusion, and she had signed a form beforehand saying that should it be necessary, she didn’t want one.

So this new mother was allowed to die, rather than have a blood transfusion. And now her twins will grow up without a mother, and her husband with no wife. Her family will have lost a daughter. And all this is because of her faith.

(here’s a link to the story mother dies after refusing blood transfusion
and a related article about Jehovah’s Witnesses and blood transfusions Jehovah’s Witnesses and blood transfusions)

So, I find this a rather sad story. There’s a video interview with a Jehovah’s Witness on the bbc news. I’ll quote it

So never mind that there is a passage in the bible where God tells some children to stone a man to death because he’s collecting wood on the Sabbath day, never mind that there are contradictions after contradictions, and that each of the many different forms of Christianity don’t interpret the bible in this way; because this woman was born into a family of Jehovah’s Witnesses, she is now dead. If she had been born into a family of Catholics, or Hindus, Muslims or Atheists she would now be alive.

And there’s the thing, in a way she didn’t have any choice. The vast majority of people born into a religion stick to it. If we’re told something is true as children we tend to believe it, and the majority of children in the world are being told that blind faith is a good thing, and to believe without question what you’re told.

I’m sure that she sincerely believed that she would go to Hell if she had a blood transfusion. But this is because she was indoctrinated with it as a child. Pure chance led her into being born into this religion, but society kept her there. Where are the charities that try to get people to question these life threatening beliefs? But here, it goes the other way.

There are hundreds (if not thousands) of faith schools in the UK. These are schools which are funded through taxes to tell children that Christianity is right, or Islam is right, or Hinduism is right. Children are being segregated at a young age, and being told that their version of blind faith is correct, while everyone else’s is wrong. This is being funded by the government!

The thing is she may have been correct, but we should be teaching children to question everything, not to blindly accept. There may be one religion that’s right, and all the others may be wrong. But we need to stop respecting religion. We should always respect someone’s right to have a religion, but we must not respect the religion itself, we must question and question every aspect of it, again and again, and someday we may be able to prevent needless deaths like this one.

How many more lives must be lost to faith?

2

I realise I may have come across as a bit arrogant there. It may have seemed that I think that I know that I’m right and everyone else is wrong and just has to be taught that. I apologise for that if so. I’m actually agnostic, it’s just that this story evoked a lot of emotions in me, and it’s a subject I feel very strongly about.

It’s not that people should be taught there is no God, for all I know there might be. It’s that they should question everything. If this woman had thought “would God prefer me to have a blood transfusion or leave my children without a mother” and really thought about it independantly, she may still be alive.

And if her answer was still that he prefered her to die, then she may have considered why she was actually worshipping this God.

3

If you think that accepting to let someone die for such things is just plain wrong (not to mention ignorant and barbaric), I don’t see how you could think you’re not right.

Come on now.

Fundamentalism claiming lives…where did I hear that before?

There are anti-terrorism laws (and wars), but nothing about bigotry when it causes deaths.

It’s as bad as killing people in the name of god if you ask me. Wait, it’s actually the same thing.

4

I meant religion wise rather than morailty wise. E.g. my statement that we should question all religion doesn’t come from me thinking that I know that all religions are wrong, it comes from me thinking that the only way to get anywhere nearer to the truth is to question everything.

5

ok … I feel like I need to speak up.
No one can say someone else has just blind faith and has never thought about it themselves and decided to be truthful to what they believe. She made a choice and she must have spent time thinking about it.

she probably did a lot of soul searching do you think it would be easy to do?

6

If she chose to die and abandon her children, husband, and family by refusing a harmless (actually beneficial) blood transfusion, I don’t know what kind of “thinking” there could be behind such a decision.

Unless you meant something else by thinking.

I am not against religion, but against avoidable deaths. And angry.

This time religion happened to be the cause, but it might have been something else.

7

You guys need to consider something here. Nameless One and Dreamer, I am assuming your ages fall into the teens-twenties category, due to the general age range of the forum, so correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like both of you have done a great deal of thinking and contemplating and soul searching. What makes you think this woman’s life was any different? No one can go through life without questioning whatever faith they hold, contemplating it and others, and experiencing that faith full force. She lived her life, and based on her experiences, found that being a Jehovah’s Witness made sense to her. Just because someone was raised one way does not mean they are going to be indoctrinated for life. I was raised a lax Catholic, and look at me now! I’ve replaced mass and communion with mushrooms and meditation, because through all of my journeying, this is what I’ve found to be pure. Don’t judge other people, the world she saw is vastly different from what you see, what you see is vastly different from what I see, and so on and so forth. Her world, through her twenty-two years of life, led her to a being she knew as Jehovah. No one can possibly be forced into a religion through childhood indoctrination, the force of your adult life and the revelations held there are too strong. It is all a matter of personal choice. she chose her religion, was not forced into it. And if she had swallowed her faith and gotten a blood transfusion, she would have lived the rest of her life knowing that she has desecrated the most important thing in the world, she has sinned against the deity that created her, and that would be a heavy burden to live with.
She found her faith and died for it. I admire that. I would readily die before desecrating the sacred mushrooms or cactus, and she has done something in the same vein, standing up for her faith. Yes, it is sad that something which probably will have no cosmic repercussion like a blood transfusion was denied and someone is dead, but I think it is better to die in peace with your faith than to die without it.

8

Young-age brainwashing is possible.

Also, not everybody thinks critically about their faith later and tries to adapt their views accordingly.

Close-mindedness and bigotry exist.

I wish everyone did what you say.

I don’t know if that was the case here.

She just threw her life away and gravely, permanently damaged many other people’s (even if this is arguable because of their faith), if you ask me. And needlessly, on top of that.

Now, I really hope there is a god(s). Even if I don’t think they’d be that delighted of such…practices.

9

Do you honestly think that a human being with a functioning mind could live 22 years and not contemplate her faith? Are you trying to tell me there is a single Christian(or member of any other religion) who has never had a crisis of faith? It was HER CHOICE to belong to that religion. It was HER CHOICE to be closed minded, open minded, bigoted or loving. Thus it was HER CHOICE to die, not the fault of any faith. And the death was not needless. Had she gotten the blood transfusion she would have lived the rest of her life in guilt. Now she has stood up for the God she loves and what he has told her to do in the face of our society and the prospect of more earthly pleasure.

10

Well, it was actually in the prospect of not orphaning her two kids, not widowing her husband and not giving her relatives and friends a loss to mourn.

And she would have looked much better in the face of our society hadn’t she done what she did.

I’d be a tiny bit careful about beliefs when life is at stake…

I would also add that no god would ask people to permanently abandon their relatives, or to die for that matter, but whatever.

I thought human life had some value, but apparently anything can be thrown out of the window.

Anyway, I honestly think (actually know) that there are too many people out there for AD 2007 that don’t slightly question their beliefs for their whole lives. And often not by choice, but because of their situation. Fundamentalists, for example.

I wish I had your faith in humanity.

11

Moogle - I didn’t say either that she had blind faith or that she didn’t think about it. I said that religions often promote blind faith, and that I don’t think she thought about it independantly.

First off IMO religion teaches you not to question things, to accept them. E.g. in the bible, when Jesus is resurrected, the disciples don’t believe he has come to life again. Only when they see proof, do they believe. They question it. But Jesus says to them “blessed are those who believe and did not see.” So those who accepted without proof. Surely that is either those who do not question, or those who don’t require proof to answer their questions.

Now going on from this, this woman would probably have been brought up to accept that Jehovah’s Witnesses are right, and that you are blessed if you have faith, if you accept these things without proof. In general Jehovah’s Witnesses live in their own communities, and although she would have had other influences at school most of her influences would have been from that community.

So I’m sure she thought about it, but on the religion’s terms. I would imagine (though obviously there’s no way I can know) that she would have weighed up abandoning her children and insulting God, and she chose to abandon her children.

But what I’m saying is that everyone should be taught to question everything. So in her case to question if there is a God, to question why Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in God, to question why he wouldn’t want her to have a blood transfusion, to question why Jehovah’s Witnesses think that God doesn’t want them to have a blood transfusion, to question the wisdom of abandoning her children e.t.c.

Now you may say, but she might have thought of all that, and you could be right. But I can’t imagine a parent choosing to abandon their children when they see just how much faith is required to make the connections that her religion makes. Now I’m not saying that they’re wrong in their religion (for all I know they could be right) but to abandon your children surely you have to “know” your beliefs are right, and if you “know” your beliefs are right you’re not questioning everything.

Daylight - I disagree with you. Surely, since the majority of children born in countries where most people are Christian become Christian, since the majority of children born in countries where most people are Muslim become Muslim, since the majority of children born in countries where most people are Hindu’s are Hindu e.t.c. the religion you are born into must have a profound effect on your future beliefs. It is far more common for someone to stick to their religion than to change it. Now of course she could have changed it, she did have the choice to have a blood transfusion in the end, but the balance was always weighted against her.

If she had been born an Atheist or a Jew or a Buddhist she would have been vastly less likely to become a Jehovah’s Witness in later life, and so vastly less likely to die like she did.

In my eyes she abandoned her children. Either she did that just on her faith, in which case I deeply disapprove, or she “knew” she was right. But IMO she can’t have questioned everything if she “knew” she was right, and so if she’d been taught to question, maybe this tragedy wouldn’t have happened.

12

“blessed are those who believe and did not see.”
that for me is a reference to the generations to come who would not be able to get first hand proof of the resurrection ie our generations … it is not about blind faith

but you by your posts know you are right … so you are not fully questioning everything. What you are posting is what you believe to be the truth and the right way to do things.

13

Hmm, I disagree. A quote by Winston Churchill that I failed to find, but will nonetheless give you the gist of is: “A man who has nothing to die for is a life in vain.” I agree with this quote, mainly because I think that just believing in something can be more important than the beliefs itself, but the belief is important as well. This belief can give reasons to live, and, a place in this world, where otherwise there may have been none. Then there is what you believe in, which is important. Believing in something is like valuing something. What do you value in life, what do you think is worth dying for? What if you didn’t value anything in life, where would you be without values? Lost, is what I think. I know what I value, and these are: freedom, western civilization. and I am willing to die for my faith.

14

Wonderful quote, from the Bible I can only assume, it means a very different thing, yet in many ways the same thing to me. I had to see before I had faith and I wish it was not that way.

You guys have to look at it from her perspective. There is this God, he created you, he loves you, he will judge you, he will give you heaven or hell, he is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, the way, the truth, and the life. After you, your husband, your children, and everyone else is dead, you will all be re-united, and hopefully, through your faith in Christ, get into heaven. So she did not abandon her children, she followed her God’s will and will see her children when Christ comes back. That is her world, her truth, and who are you to judge her based on your world and truth? Your world is not applicable to everyone, nor is mine, just as theirs is not applicable to yours.

15

Daylight, I’m glad you have so much faith in humanity, but a lot of people DO NOT QUESTION THEIR FAITH. I’ve spoken to several people who seem to have the blinders of zeal on, and can’t combat things I might argue with actual logical points. Some people just don’t think about their religon. If people did, as you think they do, then perhaps the world would be a much better place.

People should always find their own crisis of faith, to really think.

16

Ok I know some people here are gonna say im single minded, or ignorant or something but whatever.

I think it’s just stupid, come on, she died for such an assinine reason. And as Dreamer stated, a daughter, mother, and wife would be lost as a result of such stupidity.

What is this pointless act of claiming one’s own life over faith.

17

Well some religions say you should not question your faith (it’s, after all, faith). That’s totally wrong. That’s the worst thing you could make someone do: not question how they act, act irrationaly, without reason, believe things without any reason, close themselves to seeking the truth, close themselves to growing or to the possiblity that they are wrong. Even if you do question it, the problem is that since it’s taught in us from childhood we are prone to stay adhered to it, even if it tell’s us pure nonsense.

On top of that, if you really were to really question your faith, objectively, without the adherence or preference or partialization to your current faith, it’s very probable you would not follow it, or follow another religion rather.

I think religion is poison. It did us good for much time, but its already time for most of humanity to leave it behind. Otherwise it wo’nt do us good anymore, it will rather limit our growth and freedom.

18

I don’t think of religon as poison, but rather something people should find on their own, not blindly follow. If everyone, EVERYONE, made their own religon everytime, cut their spirituality to suit their own beliefs, then think of what would happen to the world. All major religons would suddenly lose their power, cults would be utterly destroyed, autocracies founded on divine right ruling would be torn to pieces, and no-one, I mean no-one, could hide behind the protection of a symbol. The world would be better.

19

He loves you, but may torture you forever. Contradiction #1.

And asking people to die. Contradiction #2.

And let’s stress “hopefully”. But what if not? Bummer.

It looks like she did to me, but let’s assume she didn’t. She always made someone’s life hell.

I am just using Common Sense™. I thought it was applicable to everything.

No wait, it’s not.

But let us set any kind or thinking and logic aside, let’s assume that’s the way it is. I wouldn’t do that even if GOD himself told me to refuse the transfusion and abandon my family. I would NEVER abandon my family, for ANYONE nor ANYTHING. Let alone give up the joy of seeing my children being born and raising them, and living with them. Not even if threatened with hell. Not even if there waas 100% certainty of what you said. Not even for a perfact being (with a ton of shortcomings, but whatever).

What a selfish monster I am, eh?

20

How old were the people you talked to? I’m not sure of your age, but many here are younger, and a 14 or 15 year old will have alot less to say about their faith than a twenty two year old. I’ve also noticed that blind faith is often weak faith. Those with blind faith, I don’t think, would die for it. You have to be pretty into it to actually die for it.
And what is the point here? That the Jehovah’s Witnesses are evil? That certain things within the Christian religion may cause people to die? Well so there is in Hinduism, Islam, and hell, how many suicides do you think happen due to episodes of purposeless-ness and feelings of being alone and useless that come along with not believing in God?
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Edit; the post above was posted at the same time as mine;[/color]

First of all, Hell is not a place of torture. Careful study of the bible will show that the “torture” spoke of is a metaphor for the terrible fate of not being united with God. The “second death”, you cease to exist.
(I’ll get to the asking to die part shortly)
Secondly, my point is that in your world she abandoned her children, but in her world she sacrificed herself for something that is greater than herself and her children. Don’t judge people based on the vantage point you are stuck in. Reality is subjective, get used to it.
And as for the asking people to die part, to some people, God’s will is more important than their life. Who are you to say that they died for nothing when they believed they died for everything?