Interfacing the sub-conscious

I was replying to another post talking about how our imaginations fade as we get older, I disagreed strongly, but in replying I realised that many see the sub-conscious in different ways. I have my own perspective and wanted to share and get it clear in my mind. Perhaps also even get others thoughts and ideas on the topic.

When we dream or try to lucid dream, we are in many ways entering a world which reflects our sub-conscious. Assuming of course you believe that some or all our dreams occur only in our heads, which for the purpose of this post, I will assume. Many seem to be under the impression that the sub-conscious is self-aware, that it judges them or is even malicious towards them. I disagree with this, for me it’s like looking at a drill and saying its alive and thinks. I suspect we do this because we have an innate tendency to humanise things. “My car is a she, etc etc” “my computer hates me…” and so on. I don’t see my sub-conscious that way and I don’t think seeing it that way is helpful or useful.

How do you see the sub-conscious?
I see it as a tool; a pattern matcher which does my bidding. It fires and triggers emotions based on many things, animal instincts which are embedded in my dna. Based on my experiences in life, I touched a cooker door when it was hot once, now when I am near a cooker I feel anxiety at touching it. Perhaps if you never touched it, the anxiety comes from imagining how touching it would feel.

The key for me though is the patterns, they can be incredibly complex patterns, but still just patterns. It can react not just by firing our emotions, but by catapulting thoughts and memories into our mind as well. As somebody who often has intuitive flashes, this happens often. I see something and inexplicably think of something else, or remember something. I also feel our thoughts can drift to shaping those patterns and thinking about sub-conscious data. Somewhat how dreams work. When that happens we are driving our sub-conscious, even programming it. As I said earlier, from imagining how it would feel to touch a hot oven door and knowing it would be harmful to us. (rational thought) We built and create the anxiety at doing so. (irrational pattern) telling ourselves it’s stupid to feel that way, doesn’t address the root of the issue. Having faith in or reaffirming our ability to stop ourselves from touching it and burning ourselves however… does.

Why doesn’t it just do what I want if it’s a tool?
For me the answer is simple, we do not understand consciously how to program and shape it. I can’t claim mastery of controlling my sub-conscious but I’ve done enough to know that I have some control over it. My favourite example is being able to set my own internal ‘alarm’ to wake me up at a specific time. I don’t just mean regular times either, I’ve woken myself after varying amounts of sleep like 2-4 hours using this system at 3am, a very unnatural sleep pattern.

There is a difference between what you want, and what you really want at the deepest level. We can’t lie to, or fool ourselves, trying to do so will only lead to misery and a feeling of emptiness. In the case of dreams, it’ll likely lead to failure. When we dream, we are confronted by this in the form of the environment being driven by our deepest thoughts and expectations. Common problems seem to be caused by it, “I can’t fly, I fall” being caused by the deep expectation that you can’t really fly, that would be illogical.

How do you control it then?
One of the most important things I can see is to be honest with yourself. This might seem obvious and even insulting, but it’s incredibly easy to deny how you really feel. Denying how you really feel pushes it from your mind, the patterns remain active and blocking you, but you are no longer even aware of the thought which forms them. This renders you incapable of actually addressing the thought causing the problem. Leading to the belief that your mind is working against you, only further pushing you away from properly interfacing with your sub-conscious.

Once you acknowledge why you feel a certain way, you can start to analyse it. Consider why it is the case, consider the things which might invalidate the idea. To take the flying example from earlier, you can start to think about why in a dream you can do whatever you want. I had the flying problem, after spending some time in real life reminding myself that anything is possible in dreams, (reprogramming my sub-conscious by positive reinforcement.) my next dream saw me soaring into space. I’m doing a similar thing with my attempts to transform into a dragon destabilising the dream. I dreamed of being at the epicentre of a nuclear blast, watching somebody suffer it. Being flying creatures that could blast the world with electricity and seeing the world from space having a slider to move time forwards and backwards. Thinking things like this seems a good way to realise it’s a misconception, more than just denying it.

I’m not guru in this regard, I can only share some of the insights I’ve gained from trial and error. Perhaps others can also share their experiences and we can all gain.

Final thoughts
I was uncertain whether to post this in cloud, or here. Some of what I’ve discussed in my post can be applied to life in general as well. For me that is the massive power of dreams, and how they affect real life. When we dream we are looking at a mirror of ourselves, at all our beliefs, thoughts, ideas and expectations laid bare and uncensored. If we look at them carefully, we can begin to understand ourselves better. You don’t have to be spiritual to believe dreams can be a key to massive potential.

How appropriate that a forum like this has such connections to “through the mirror” :wink:

I’m usually not a reader of long posts because I am rather short on time at the moment, but while looking for new posts, the mere topic title caught my attention. And see who posted it, I figured it’s likely worth a read, and so it is.

I found that there are a lot of ideas that I agree with or rather, that I concluded myself already earlier. I will comment the most important points:

This gives heat to a lot of debates and actually, defining what kind of view you hold is essential to any kind of discussion you want to have about such a topic. Agreeing with your point makes it a lot easier to follow your arguments, and indulge in even more agreement :wink:

I also disagree with the subconcious being self-aware. Otherwise you could easily come up with the idea of having an inherently split personality (the aware concious and the aware sub-concious, residing within the same body and brain). Dragon’s explanation of how it should be viewed seems more accurate:

Indeed, I think our SC is a bulk of data assembled somewhere within our brain (maybe not in an explicit location but rather scattered, but I’m not a neurologist… this could be easily analyzed by asking people who had obtained brain damage to a specific region and how this affected their SC, but that is not the topic here). This bulk of data serves as a filter to our thoughts and emotions, modifying them in any way (amplification, damping, changing the direction completely, …).

I am not sure how much this is related to the subconcious. I think this has to do with associative memory, which is the way our brain stores information: by linking them to already existant information. I can only agree in so far that presumably all parts of our memory contribute to the shape of our SC.

This is where it gets interesting. I was also wondering about how to shape our SC. My intention wasn’t even to “use” it as a tool for myself, but mere experimenting at first. Like you assemble an electrical circuit to fulfil various purposes. But at first you only see what you can do, and later see what specific purpose you can achieve that is generating a real use for you. I haven’t had the time yet to try anything specific though, so mere theory so far.

I tend to disagree. You do not know at the very moment how to do it. Neither do I. Probably nobody does. But as long as we can observe the inputs and outputs, we do not necessarily need to know the internal wiring of a black box to understand how we can use it for our own purposes. Progress in this might eventually be made (by psychologists I guess).

I give you my full acknowledgement to the first part. However, I have a different idea on the result of “lying to yourself”. In my opinion it can not only lead to misery, or a feeling of emptiness, as you describe it. I think the result is very different from person to person. A lot of people constantly lie to themselves. I’m no exception, and neither are you. Being aware of it might make it easier to prevent it at times, but can you really tell what you are feeling every single second of your life? I find that too difficult, and escaping in illusionary feelings can sometimes be far more blissful.

I already gave some thoughts on this above. I am not sure how severe you see self-denial, but I think I might have a more tolerant view on this aspect. I wouldn’t force it on anybody to live their life more concious or honest to themselves. As long as they are happy with what they got, there is not always a reason to change how things are. Though this is a very tricky topic and I haven’t exactly elaborated my idea on it yet, as I have to admit.

:lol: When I was reading it, I also had to check in what section you posted it, because I thought it was in the Lucidity one. I also doubted it might be in “Beyond Dreaming” :wink:

And here we come to the part that pretty exactly describes why I still have “dreaming” as a hobby. As you implied, it might be viewed as an esoteric thing to do, while I hold the firm believe that it is merely an uncommon case of self-study. Surely not a mainstream one.
What you can learn lies not within dream dictionaries that are supposed to help you analyze your dream or fortell the future, but it lies within your very self that shows a completely different side of its appearance during sleep.
And also, dreams can be quite cool and take away some hours of your day - every day. Why waste that :cool:

But my SC always kicks me out of my dream and twice appeared to me in LD and said that he is my SC , chased me stabbed me etc. When I started LDing I didn’t obsessed myself with my SC being my enemy.I looked it as my guide my helper.But I got hostility.Do you have an explanation to that ?

:shy: Thanks. :smile:

From the very little I saw a while ago about such things, it seemed the brain was extremely adaptive. I agree results of such an experiment would be interesting, but I suspect a bit like the internet, if one connection goes down, things get rerouted and nodes can change purpose to recover from damage. That was what I understood, at least we have a partial ability to recover this way.

Yes, I guess what I was describing there does sound more like associative memory than anything. Although I was more meaning to refer to memories which haven’t been formed associatively. Those which are just a similar pattern to other memories already made. I’m not sure how big of a difference that is though.

I started out with experimenting too. One experiment was embedding some reactions by defining a certain pattern, and a reaction I wanted to invoke in that situation. It worked better than I anticipated. There have been a couple of times now I’ve suddenly felt a feeling, when I thought about why I realised the pattern I had embedded had been matched. I don’t just mean being in a certain place or seeing a certain thing, the patterns can be much more complicated than that. In a way it’s a form of self-hypnosis I suppose. This is what lead me to suppose the SC deals in patterns.

I agree, I was simply saying in those situations where our sub-conscious seems to work counter to our desires, it does so because we aren’t setting it up ‘correctly.’ For some reason we have it setup in a way which opposes our intention. This can happen because of unacknowledged doubts and such. We just ignore them and say it’s stupid consciously, but our sub-conscious doesn’t share that dismissal and we end up kidding ourselves. We forget about it and don’t even realise its an input anymore. The inputs we enter into our SC are far more comprehensive than we sometimes acknowledge, and just dismissing an idea consciously isn’t always enough to stop it having an effect sub-consciously.

Of course there have been many times in my life where I’ve tried to deny something to myself. I speak from personal experience when I say it can leave you feeling empty. I succeeded in overpowering and was outright denying part of who I was for nearly 2 years, in the short term that might be fine and well but in the long term it wasn’t healthy. In that time I had eradicated that part of me from my mind, I learned a great deal of mental discipline, including the ability to ‘erase’ (suppress) a thought, something which is endlessly useful in meditation to this day.

Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not on some crusade to correct the wrongs I see with peoples thinking. I’m just sharing convictions I have made, no doubt the strength of my convictions makes me sound unyielding, but I make no judgements of how others live. If people want to suppress parts of themselves or find bliss in illusionary feelings, that’s their prerogative.

I would never apply personal standards to others for actions that do not extend beyond the scope of the individual. Basically, “and if it harms none, do as you will.” My perspective on me carrying out self-denial is clear, my opinion on others doing it is totally irrelevant, the most that I consider ok to do is to share my perspective then let it be. I was posting postulating that perhaps this self-denial, is what causes apparent disobedience of our sub-conscious with regards to (lucid) dreaming.

Based on the views I discussed above, I can’t explain the precise reasons why your sub-conscious isn’t doing what you want it to. I can only suggest reasons why this might be the case. It seems at some level you expect resistance from your sub-conscious, there could be countless reasons ranging from a worry that lucid dreaming won’t let you rest, to feeling that you don’t deserve it, or because you started out already humanising your SC, it could be the belief that others are more likely to harm than help you.