Lucidity's role in the natural purpose of dreams

Quest for Lucidity General Lucidness
1

One reason I wanted to become lucid was so that I could help enhance the purpose of dreams to come to a health conclusion. In an analogy like being chased by a deadly dinosaur :help: , I would try to use lucidity to realize that the dinosaur can’t actually hurt me and then use a different course of action. Talking to the dinosaur, standing up to it, fighting it fearlessly, or just letting it eat me could be different alternatives to running away from it afraid for my life.

But that raises the question: am I supposed to run away from it? Was the purpose of the dream to experience running away from something in full terror? Is it more beneficial to experience that or is it more beneficial to overcome that fear in the dream? Is the dream designed to help my subconscious to experience specific situations or can they be tampered with and edited by the more lucid consciousness?

What do you think?

2

You do what you want, because your conscious in the dream. You make choices and can think about them in real time. So what you do does not matter at all. So long as you know it to be what you want. Whether you run or get eaten by the dinosaur once lucid makes no difference. There is no difference between reality and the dream in principle, both are seen at the moment In time as “reality”, so why should there be something your supposed to do? Do what you want once lucid. Nothing matters at all :wink:

3

I think this is a good question to ask yourself. I am inclined to the default belief that the dream of running from a dinosaur is likely to be born from a feeling of being threatened or in danger in waking life. Physically, but probably more likely emotionally. I’ve also encountered powerful dream elements like this that forced the dream to play out a specific situation because it helped me to think about something. It could also perhaps be from watching Jurassic park too much. :wink: I’m not belittling the dream, but it’s no good to exclude any options too quickly.

If it’s because you feel threatened in waking life, I would expect the dream to adapt to your ‘meddling’ and present different imagery conducive with your state of mind. It’s possible that you might find confidence through doing it too though. Facing imagined demons in your dreams can make you feel strong enough to face their counterpart in waking life. :smile: You can say to yourself for example, “I beat a t-rex in my dream, why is this scary.”

If it’s because you watched something involving the dream situation a lot, I don’t think there would be any harm in it. The dream probably doesn’t have much deeper meaning in those circumstances.

If you take a more spiritual approach, I strongly believe that our mind wouldn’t let us usurp vital functions. We don’t need to panic that we might ‘break’ ourselves or drive away any entities helping us. If you are trying to understand meaning whilst you ‘play’ you will eventually see it, even if you interfere by accident with the first attempts for it to be communicated. The closest example I can give from my own experiences is: I was phasing dream characters out of existence in my lucid dream, because I wanted to be alone. I came to phase out one particular character and they transformed into a little dragon and that utterly changed the direction of the dream. :content: I am deeply attached to dragons and the thought of phasing one out of my dream is abhorrent. If there was any spiritual thing going on, I would expect it to do things like this and block your interference through ingenuity.

4

Maybe it’s just me but I don’t see much symbolism in dreaming. I don’t feel that dreams have a set purpose to them. Like Mr1811 said, it is merely another level of consciousness, and so the decisions you make in the dream aren’t something that will change your RL. Just because you conquer a fear in a dream doesn’t mean it happens in RL, but at the same time it could. LD comes from memories and other images/sounds in the brain off of the different experiences that you’ve had. You experience things different than the person next to you. So things you do in dreams could affect your mindset in real life differently than it would someone else. Give a couple different things a try

5

The most probable theory of the purpose of dreams (it is not yet confirmed, but pretty probable) is that dreams change your temporary memories into long-term memories. In simple language, it clears the memories you don’t need, and keeps the memories that might be useful in the future. That’s why you usually wake up with a refreshed mind.

6

@Presence333: Here’s my take…The body naturally seeks health (homeostasis). The mind is at least part of the body, so it also seeks health. Yet, the bodymind isn’t always successful in seeking health. It may be hampered by, say, an autoimmune disease, or pollutants, or an addiction or a neuorsis based on inaccurate perceptions.

In cases where the bodymind cannot naturally seek health because of mitigating circumstances, conscious intervention is extremely helpful. It’s very hard to get over an addiction without mindfulness. Likewise, it’s very difficult to work through psychological issues without conscious mindfulness.

Dreams may be implicated in the making of long-term memories, but it may be not all they do. From dream reports it’s rather obvious that dreams contain memories of the deep past. (From some dream reports it seems they might also contain “memories” of the future.) Perhaps these past memories surface because of the associational nature of memory, but the drama they trigger in the mindspace can–and often does–have a very real felt effect on the person even after they wake up. What happens in dreams affects our waking physiology and state of mind. We employ mindfulness to meet the challenges of strong negative emotions (and their physical effects) when we’re awake, and we can employ mindfulness to do the same thing when we’re asleep.

7

Paulius is right, that is the leading theory on the function of dreams. And like loosey believes, I don’t give much credibility to the ideas that dreams are symbolicaly significant. That’s why in the past 50 or so years, the entirety of western medicine in the fields of psychology have done away with freud’s style of dream interpetation. But in your anology about the dinosaur, no I don’t believe the dreams puprose is to be scared. It’s true occasionaly you get a dream that helps solve a real life dilemma, but that isn’t the function of dreaming. That’s why lucid dreaming is often a suggested thereaputic tool to deal with recurring nightmares. You gotta think, if you asked someone who suffered chronic night terrors if they thought the episodes actually benefited them, what do you think they would say? :razz:

8

Right, but what if it’s just a regular person? From what I know about emotions, an effective way to deal with them is to just experience them naturally, letting them pass, and understanding them with clarity; problems usually arise when people try to control them by fighting them away and when they don’t understand them.

The homeostasis explanation makes sense; I think a lot of dreams need to be experienced for the purpose of a healthier mind. I had a dream a few nights back where I drew a distinct set of eyes in my dream journal and days later I unconsciously drew a face with the same set of eyes in my waking life journal. It clicked all of a sudden and I linked the emotional challenge I was writing about in my waking-life journal with the strangely vivid dream I wrote out in my dream journal. The dream made perfect sense at that point and helped me to understand/overcome a crucial challenge going on in waking-life.

The thing was, in that dream, I distinctly remember hearing and feeling(over and over again)a message to NOT try to become lucid. Before I made the connection of the significance of the dream, I didn’t know why I kept getting the message. I just dismissed it has a mental barrier.

Which really makes me question one of the most common, basic intention of lucid dreaming --which I’ve felt myself and which a few of you guys are talking about: fulfilling desire and doing whatever you want. How do I know that’s what’s best for me? What if it’s just a distraction. What if using dreams for the purpose of gradification makes it meaningless?

I think dreams are important for mental, emotional, and social development because having an alternate reality where you can picture mental, emotional, and social challenges allows you a more intimate perspective. I think this development can help bring the limitless mind of dream-reality into waking reality (opening more possibilities), and the limiting (conscious) mind into dream-reality (making it easier to understand).

So a role lucidity plays in dream-reality could be making the forms and imagery in dreams more factual, concrete, and understandable. This would lead to better communication between the unconscious and conscious mind and a better understanding of the human mind. A better understanding of the human mind would lead to a better understanding of the Universe because almost everything we perceive and know about the Universe must go through the mind.

9

Well I have to respond to that, but keep in mind I say this sincerely with all due respect. Dreams have absolutely no profound spiritual significance. If your point was true, and manipulating the dream enrionment was unnatural and unhealthy, distracting the subconcious from our alert minds, then this entire comunity you talk to on the fourm would be a giant group of neurotic schizophrenics. The largest near-fact that we know about dreams is that they are mostly random images and thoughts conjured up by the activation of the pons in the frontal lobe while the brain is probably formatting important thoughts and data you experienced throughout the day into useful long term memory. But this is just theory. Granted, the most widely accepted one. It’s just in my personal opinion, dreams offer no spiritual value whatsoever.

10

"Which really makes me question one of the most common, basic intention of lucid dreaming --which I’ve felt myself and which a few of you guys are talking about: fulfilling desire and doing whatever you want. How do I know that’s what’s best for me? What if it’s just a distraction. What if using dreams for the purpose of gradification makes it meaningless? "

The Idea that I’m fancying is that there is no “best thing for me”. You make up with your imaginative mind, what’s best for you. It’s a subjective question. A choice like what taste better, apples or oranges? There is no real answer.

11

I have had similar thoughts about lucid dreams.
It seems like lucid dreams aren’t really “natural”, since you would need amazing intelligence and self-awareness to be able to pull it off in the first place, so these kinds of dreams seem like something that we humans have “invented”.
Of course animals may also have lucid dreams, but they probably wouldn’t understand them.

But sure, as long as they aren’t unhealthy in any way they are definitely one of the most awesome things ever.

12

myechta_rukovodstva:

Hey, thank you for sharing your perspective. Don’t worry, I don’t think you or anyone in this community are neurotic schizophrenics; I have a great deal of respect for this community and am inspired by it.

I imagine that there is a time and a place for anything and that people are on their own path with dream exploration. Maybe for a time it is best for a person to explore lucidity through using it for desire fulfillment and entertainment, or experiencing things that they have always wanted to in waking reality. I could see how that can teach the person how to get use to it and gain familiarity with dream reality.

But I’m just wondering, for myself and anyone else who might have had similar feelings, if there is more to it…and through discussing it I feel I am understanding it better.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘spiritual’ significance. What I pointed out was the mental, emotional, and social significance I (and others) have experienced through working with dreams. My guess is that you consider that to be spiritual, but then it confuses me why you would say there is no profound significance involved.

Mr18111:

I agree that the question originates in subjectivity and seeks to uncover answers for myself (and anyone having similar thoughts). I specifically chose the word “I” and “me” to discern that. However, change is objective. What you and I think is best for ourselves will eventually change. You eat an apple long enough, and you’ll get sick of it. I think the same is true with fulfilling desires in dreams without meaning or purpose.

Laurelindo:

What do you think would make a lucid dream unhealthy?

13

I think, in trying to judge whether a lucid dream is “natural” or more like hacking the mind, it’s really important to remember that there’s a whole spectrum of lucidity–and that lucidity happens without anyone trying to become lucid. I had lucid dreams as a little kid and I certainly didn’t try to have them–they just happened.

What is lucidity exactly? Well, unconscious or automatic behavior is defined by psychologists (I’m thinking of John Bargh) as being uncontrolled, unintentional, unaware and efficient. So, by contrast, conscious behavior (read: lucid behavior) is controlled, intentional, aware and inefficient.

So, when you’re lucid in a dream, you’re intentionally controlling your attention and you’re aware that you’re doing it.

Obviously, though, there’s a whole gamut of how much control we have over our awareness in any one moment–whether we’re awake or asleep. Even in non-lucid dreams our egos still have intentions (i.e, weak lucidity). We might have the intention to drive to work, but a bunch of problems crop up: our car dies, there’s a thunderstorm, we get lost. All through that, our intentionality might strong.

We also exercise control in non-lucid dreams. We might dream of being tempted by a friend wife or husband, yet we restrain ourselves because we’re aware that it would have huge negative consequences.

So, even in non-lucid dreams, we have intentions and control over our behavior. We might even stop and specifically notice something strange and ask questions about it (a pre-lucid phase). Clearly, in dreams we have less control than normally. It’s like we’re drunk. Actually, it’s exactly like we’re drunk. When we’re under the influence of alcohol or drugs, the seats of willpower in the pre-frontal cortex are less active. The same is true of dreams.

What makes a lucid dream a lucid dream isn’t necessarily the sudden appearance of intentionality, control, some awareness of awareness, or even of rationality and a higher-functioning memory. We have all of those things to some lesser extent in a non-lucid dream. We often reason incorrectly in non-lucid dreams, but sometimes we reason correctly. We notice what we’re thinking and feeling. Sometimes we actually remember past events well, even within a dream. A lucid dream is really about (?) how much of these things we have–whether they’re operating above a certain critical threshold.

At a certain threshold of awareness, the dream ego remembers itself. I think that’s the easiest way to say it. Usually what happens, I think, is (in the case of a spontaneous DILD) an especially novel or strange or frightening stimulus jolts the ego mind into a complete search of its memory in an attempt to deal with the novelty or problem. Instantaneously, the mind knows that the situation matches nothing in its memory–or even what it knows to be possible. Or, sometimes, as in the case of a recurring nightmare, the mind realizes that the situation matches or resembles past nightmares. Conclusion: I’m dreaming.

It’s actually quite beautifully logical, and it shows that lucidity is partly a process of the rational mind. What psychologist Daniel Kaheman refers to as “System 2.” In a nutshell, the mind effectively runs through this syllogism:

If I’m experiencing something incredibly weird and unlikely, then I’m probably dreaming.
I am experiencing something really incredibly weird and unlikely.
Therefore, I’m probably dreaming.

All that happens in a flash, but if you examine your lucid dream reports, you’ll probably see that line of thinking again and again.

I don’t think lucid dreaming is, in any way, unnatural because it’s plain that our minds (usually in some automatic mode–even when we’re awake) reach impasses all the time and turn over power to the consciously reasoning parts of ourselves. Some problems can only be solved through conscious attention, through careful control and intentionality, memory searches and by using conservative mental frameworks like logic.

If lucid dreaming is “unnatural,” then participating in therapy is “unnatural,” since all you’re doing in therapy is probing your unconscious consciously.

14

I agree with myechta. Neither me, nor any serious scientists see anything spiritual about dreams. While they may offer amusement and meditation, they have a pretty biologically defined function. All this spirituallity is just an old practice, dating back to thousands of years, when people didin’t know anything about medicine or anatomy of the human body. Lucidity isn’t anything special either. It is just a possibility arising from how our brain segments work. I can’t see how dreams could be messages or some important predictions of the future (or past). All these sensations should be connected to the fact that dreams are strongly involved in dealing with our memories. As I said, we are pretty close to the official answer what exactly dreams are for. Then we can move onto the concept of Consciousness and other brain mysteries still waiting to be understood :razz:.

15

Well, contemporary psychologists still take quite seriously the idea that our dreams offer us coherent information about problems. There’s nothing antiquated about this notion. We often troubleshoot our problems in the back of our mind (more or less unconsciously). Why shouldn’t we do it in dreams? Despite your disbelief, many of us do receive direct, or metaphoric, messages from our dreams. It’s possible to incubate dreams on specific topics and get information from your subconscious that your conscious mind alone had had difficulty gathering.

All problem-solving, whether it’s done awake or asleep and dreaming, involves memory. We can sit down and fantasize about something completely novel and we’re still drawing on our memory. Our memory is being accessed in pretty much every operation of consciousness or the unconscious. Memory is our map of the world and of ourselves. Of course dreams involve memory. Maybe dreams occur, at least partly, so that short-term memories can be encoded into long-term memories. As far as I know, that hasn’t been thoroughly proven. It wouldn’t bother me if it was because it’s clear that dreams are also more than that.

Besides, if a person can lie down, induce sleep paralysis and consciously enter some specific dream imagery, how can that imagery be a part of mnemonic encoding? It’s possible to reenter past dreams, with the environment, characters and events being more or less the same. That’s not mnemonic encoding; that’s the conscious mind engaging a past dream memory.

16

"I agree that the question originates in subjectivity and seeks to uncover answers for myself (and anyone having similar thoughts). I specifically chose the word “I” and “me” to discern that. However, change is objective. What you and I think is best for ourselves will eventually change. You eat an apple long enough, and you’ll get sick of it. I think the same is true with fulfilling desires in dreams without meaning or purpose. "

There is no absolute wants or needs. Maybe some things are better than other things. But you see that by thinking the fullfilment of Desires without meaning is bad or not right, your only thinking what you want to think. And that thought influences yur actions. Your just doing what you want, and your unsure in you beliefs, which seems to be why you made this thread. You see you have no absolute reason to be sure that fufilment of desires with out meaning is bad or good. Yet you still feel the way you do. Nothing really matters, maybe in a paradoxical way, thats why doin what you think you want is all that matters?

If after a while apples start to taste bad, you switch to oranges. But after a while they too could start to taste bad. Apples oranges, meaning or no meaning in dreams, it really does not matter. In terms of subjectivity, wright=wrong

17

I agree with the premise that lucid dreaming is natural. My qualm is with the basic intention influencing the decision of what to do with lucidity. But I’m starting to think it’s a bit more like a balancing act: one dream you might need to be lucid and trying to understand the dream elements better, another dream it might be beneficial to re-enforce your sense of self by acting as your ‘ideal-self’, and another dream might be good to just have fun, fly around, and do what you want. Perhaps only focusing on one aspect is what makes it less natural and more ideological. Whether being ideological is natural is another discussion. :razz:

It’s a good point, Mr18111. It leads to the question: what makes someone value one want over another want? What criteria is involved? Or are you just talking about following instincts and a more intuitive sense of ‘want’.

When I thought about using lucid dreaming to mess around and do meaningless things, I sensed there was something unfulfilling about it (to me). So you’re right, I was unsure about it. But through questioning, contemplating, and discussing it here, I established a purpose for lucid dreaming that can fulfill multiple levels of self. Even if there is no absolute want, I prefer making a decision that aligns with the inspiration of as many aspects of myself as possible. Fulfilling a desire is one thing, but if I can fulfill a desire while simultaneously understand my unconscious better, make my waking life healthier, and teach myself important lessons I can take with me for several years, then I’ll opt for the multi-dimensional option.

18

Well, there ya go! I’m sure you won’t be the first one to utilize lucid dreaming for a deeper purpose than psuedo-libertine desires or want of adventure. There are for sure a plethora of ideals within the comunity as to the purpose of lucid dreaming as a whole. When you use it as a tool to develope a connection to your sc, and explore a deeper sense of self, it can be fantastic noting what your learn along the way. This is never an approach to lucid dreaming that I have strived for, but it seems excellent for somebody to take a much deeper aproach to it. Keep your dream journal, and our comunity, updated on your progress and what you learn! It sounds intriguing! :smile:
And good luck! :happy:

19

"I agree with the premise that lucid dreaming is natural. My qualm is with the basic intention influencing the decision of what to do with lucidity. But I’m starting to think it’s a bit more like a balancing act: one dream you might need to be lucid and trying to understand the dream elements better, another dream it might be beneficial to re-enforce your sense of self by acting as your ‘ideal-self’, and another dream might be good to just have fun, fly around, and do what you want. Perhaps only focusing on one aspect is what makes it less natural and more ideological. Whether being ideological is natural is another discussion. "

You seem to be finding your own answers :smile: I myself tend to find a lot of aspects of lucid dreaming to be like a balancing act. You act on how you feel, what you want and what you need. And those things can change over time so it seems to make sense, in some dreams (for infinitely variable reasons) you conclude that you should find meaning in the dream. But in others you may conclude that you should just do what ever pops in your head.

"It’s a good point, Mr18111. It leads to the question: what makes someone value one want over another want? What criteria is involved? Or are you just talking about following instincts and a more intuitive sense of ‘want’. "

Ah that is a very good question and I don’t think I could come up with a simple answer. It could be that wants and desires are just determined randomly on a whim. Or maybe it is the continuously changing nature between all the relevant variables in the subjects environment. I honestly do not know. I observe tons of relative correlation between some people’s wants and there environment. But at the same time I see people with wants that have very little correlation to other things. Someone wants to kill the person sleeping with their lover. That same someone started loving their lover for reason they can’t quite understand, they just do. Haha if that makes any sense. But anyways yes, I am basically referring to wants as being your intuitive or ideal desires.

" Even if there is no absolute want, I prefer making a decision that aligns with the inspiration of as many aspects of myself as possible. Fulfilling a desire is one thing, but if I can fulfill a desire while simultaneously understand my unconscious better, make my waking life healthier, and teach myself important lessons I can take with me for several years, then I’ll opt for the multi-dimensional option."

And it is your desire to do so. And by trying to explore you consciousness objectively or try to uncover layers in it or translating dream elements, you are fullfiling your desires. Just doing what you want to do. So just make sure you enjoy and have fun :smile:

20

Do not rule out the possibility that many people use lucid dreaming to do interact with their subconscious mind in a more positive and constructive way. Whether or not you believe in a ‘spiritual’ side to dreams, you cannot deny that what you think of as ‘you’ is mostly just a superficial ego. You don’t create the dream consciously - just start asking dream characters to tell you things you don’t know and need to know, and eventually one most likely will. The elements of your dreams represent, at the very least, the parts of yourself you do not yet perceive or understand.

I believe that being overly aggressive to dreams characters can be damaging to your psyche, and thereby carry over, albeit in subtle ways, into your waking life. If you believe there is nothing in the dream but you, then all your aggression is really aimed at parts of yourself. As far as letting dreams play out naturally and letting the dinosaur torment you as per usual, there is a benefit to that. If we were in our natural environments we would need practice running from tigers and whatnot. But even non lucid dreams do not follow the natural course of events - tigers have never turning into fire breathing giant octopuses at any point since mankind evolved.

What if, as a society, we are already f****ed up anyway? What if its not natural to have nightmares about not paying bills, passing tests, getting arrested, etc. I think we need all the help we can get, personally, to shake off the delusions when were taught growing up, and lucid dreams may help you get to a more mature part of yourself - but yes, you might have to struggle with the addiction, and subsequent apathy, of the pursuit of mere pleasure. And that can be hard to do.