Political Correctness Eats Itself

Why do you think that it is more socially exceptable to criticize Christianity than it is to criticize Islam?

I find it interesting that when someone makes a little jab at Christianity nobody would really say anything, and yet if I were to make a little attack or a jab of any kind, it would be decreed as islamaphobia, racism, or xenaphobia. Why do you think this is?

I myself, bing a Catholic, find myself very much enraged by some comments I hear, but soon I realize that a person who utterly regects God like that will probably burn in hell, and I know that God will judge people mercifully and fairly, so I generally don’t cause trouble about it.

But when you insult muslims, you better leave the country. They are gonna get pissed.

It’s interesting that there is such a variance in reactions. I’ve considered writing an article about Islam up at my University, but I’ve sort of seen some of the violence that has been done, and sort of considered against it.

I think the way you make general assumptions is insulting. I’ve seen many Christians overreact to very light criticism and not stand even a casual conversation about certain subjects (like why was the pope lenient with Nazism) and I know a lot of Muslims who accept criticism about the kind of things their fellows do. This is what I see. There are people who can and people who cannot handle criticism in both groups, and I really don’t think you’re making more than just an assumption when you say Muslims react worse than Christians to criticism. Do you have any statistical proof of what you’re saying?

Cultural differences… But anyways there is not like all people behave this way. The violence is done by people who are extremists. Christianity does not have such a good past history either. In the past people where hung or burned just because they had some slightly different beliefs. I think you should first look at your own past before judging a whole group of people.

I myself am not a fan of any religions and think most of them have created their fair share of wars, violence and deaths.

And most of them have also created their fair share of community help, selfless assistance and good deeds all around—but I think that was exactly your point, wasn’t it, Tomas?

Pacifism or violence have nothing to do with religion. Our behavior is not defined by anything other than ourselves: we’re a bit more complex than that. It’s people themselves who decide about what they do, and people’s deeds shouldn’t ever be accepted as actions in nomine pater, and nor should religions be considered subversive manipulating tools, because that’s the same as saying we’re all just a bunch of little animals who have no choice.

I’ll admit it, Catholics don’t exactly have a good track record either (“Nobody expects a Spanish Inquisition!”), and I have met some very nice muslims.

I remember seeing an e-mail in my dad’s inbox with pictures of muslims at a protest. They had very offending messages on there posterboards, slamming and threatening Jews, Chistians, and other “infedels” alike.

Where did this protest take place? Iran? Afganistan? Syria? Try (IIRC) England. At least I think so… I read it a long time ago. This protest took place in a western city, though, I know it.

All I’m saying is there is a rection typical with each religon to critisim. Christians generally take it pretty well, but, like the (IIRC) Bapstist group that pickets solider’s funerals, they can be pretty unreasonable.

And when the Dutch comic writers drew those comics which pictured the prophet Mohammed (SP?), there were riots all over the Middle East. That’s not to say that all muslims rioted, but a good portion did. I have met many very nice muslims, many of whom I like much better that “Christeaster” Catholics.

In short, I apollogize that I made some stupid assumptions, but I’m talking about NOW. The Church has made many mistakes in the past, but, we are not a ciclical Chruch. We progress. And there are many more muslim riots in the news than there are Christian riots.

Explain the story of the Nazi Pope, please. I haven’t heard this mentioned before now.

Well, the reaction that the Pope’s comments garnered could be considered as widespread, as there were violent riots all over the Middle East over that, which sort of defeated his purpose, quoting a Constantinople Emperor. Then there were the Danish Cartoon riots, as 169 people died because of several depictions of Muhammad.

Well, that is true, people have died in the past as a result of Christianity. The Spanish Inquisition was pretty nasty. The Middle East does have it’s fair share of sins, as well, for instance, the Armenian Genocide, where 1 million Armenian’s were killed systematically. That being said, however, our pasts should not be used as a tool to justify the sins of one side by pointing out that of the other. Two wrongs don’t make a right, may I remind you. Sins should be forgiven.

But this is getting away from my point. Criticism is a hallmark of our society. We live in a Liberal Democracy, where we actively criticize our politicians, neighbours, and basically anyone in power. It is a healthy, natural thing to do. And when we put something above criticism, it is basically saying that it has no faults, that it is perfect. Islam is not perfect, however, and thus it should be criticized.

Criticizing people’s faults is one thing, but spitting on faiths that have served as bases for stability and prosperity over many centuries is another. I’ve heard people slandering Christiany, Islam and religion in general in the worst possible manner, in public, and it makes me angry that these people have the freedom to spew their bile and influence others to do the same. Such cynicism is an infectious plague, it threatens the stability of any community.

Mind you, I’m not religious or biased in favor of any one religion. I also refuse to believe that insulting Islam is any less wrong than insulting Christianity. They are both unacceptable to me. Healthy, straightforward criticism is perfectly acceptable, but you rarely find that seperate from sneering sarcasm these days.

No religion is perfect, but I’d think that is aware that it is people who are ultimately responsible for good and evil actions, not religion. Religions are just systems of belief, they can’t be good or evil because good and evil are subjective concepts.

That being said, I do find that in North American culture, some religions are treated with much more criticism than others. For example, it is perfectly okay in Canadian satire to make fun of Christianity, but if you make fun of Judaism (and are not Jewish yourself) that can be construed as anti-semitism, which isn’t acceptable…I’m not saying I agree with making fun of christianity like this, or that it’s right, I’m saying that it’s simply socially acceptable in satirical TV shows, books, etc. in my country.

I also feel that religions are treated with a great deal of unfair criticism. I think if you’re going to criticize a religion, you should do it with facts, not personal opinions. I, being an atheist, often find myself fustrated with other atheists’ criticisms of religion because all they offer is opinion where they should be presenting facts and thinking in non biased, logical terms…but this is another topic for another thread.

Amused, during World War Two the pope refused to sign a letter protesting against Nazism. The reason? Apparently, he thought it was OK for Nazis to kill and torture Jews as long as they were also combating the bloody Communists.

To the pope, it was a fair price, the life and dignity of his fellow Jews, to extinguish communism. In fact, how did World War Two come to be again? European nations were lenient with the rise of the Nazis and the militarization of Germany because they hoped the Nazis would become strong enough to fight the Soviet Union.

This is exactly what I was talking to you about in our PMs, the point at which our beliefs diverge. You seem to believe classification, segregation, prejudicion and propunition are fair as long as they eliminate those bloody little pests that happen to be human.

You seem to believe, and I might be wrong about it, but that’s what I get from your writing, in the spread of differences for the annihilation of the different. Of course, you have clearly not ever lived a dictatorship or an oppressive government, for you don’t know the monster your ideals create. You probably don’t have any family member tortured, kidnapped, killed, sent in exile—you probably don’t have friends who lack parents, or friends whose brothers and sisters lack dignity, so you just don’t know how dangerous it is to spread the difference, the classification, the hatred, the segregation, the elimination of the other.

You did not live an AI–5 or a Dirty War, so you just don’t know how powerful and horrible it is that which you’re suggesting. But then again, as I told you in our private chat when I decided to discuss no further, all this hurts too much for me to even think about. It hurts too bloody much.

I’m sorry, I can’t be rational in this discussion, there’s just way too much emotion in the way and I’m afraid I won’t ever be able not to be biased in this discussion. My posts in here would be only rants and flames and I cannot allow myself to post stuff like that. This is yet another discussion I’ll try to avoid posting in.

:sad:

That is certainly true, especially deeper in the country. In the big cities people start to care less and less about everything, with time. I’ve met my share of “Christian” blind fanaticism, with these kind of people you should carefully examine every word you’re about to say, or there is a fair chance that you will be abused. Mostly verbally, but sometimes physically as well.
Christianity are not different from Islam at all, in this regard.

Well, what can I say? The amount of studying, free thought I have put into this, I can’t even begin to mention. Alright, I’ll give you my reasoning.

Muhammad founded a religion, based on the concept that Judaism and Christianity roots had been corrupted from its roots, with the Christians being led astray, and with the Jews rejecting Muhammad, even though they know in their hearts that Muhammad is their Messiah. This is evidenced by the first two, and I’m throwing in the third for fun:

Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel…But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them…From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a Covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estrangled them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgement. (Qur’an 5:12:16) True enough, he asks for their forgiveness in the next passage. However, the next passage echoes the last one, only it doesn’t ask for forgiveness of them, and as it is a later revealed chapter, it takes precedence over the previous, as it is widely agreed upon with Islamic scholars.

The Jews call 'Uzayr a son
Of God, and the Christians
Call Christ the Son of God.
That is saying from their mouth;
(In this) they but imitate
What the Unbelievers of old
Used to say. Allah’s curse
Be on them: how they are deluded
Away from the Truth! (Qur’an 9:30)

“You brothers of monkeys, has God disgraced you and brought His vengeance upon you?” (Talking about Jews) In three places in the Qur’an, (2:62-65; 5:59-60; and 7:166) says that Allah transformed the Sabbath-breaking Jews into pigs and monkeys.

This is from Sunnah Muslim Book 019 , Number 4294:

It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah… When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them.

Let me explain this, then. Before some places were taken over, they were offered to convert to Islam. If you converted, there was peace, and no fighting occured. If you accepted dhimmi status, a status reserved from Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Zoroastrians, there was peace. However, from this status, you must pay a tax, and accept that you are inferior to Muslims. Then you could fight them, if you refuse the other two. This is still widely accepted within the interpretations of the Qur’an, the four major schools within the Sunni religion, accepts it. They concur with each other, saying that it is wrong to “go to war with someone whom you haven’t offered to convert.”

This belief of superiority throughout Islam is demonstrated on a continual basis by the fundamental within the religion. My point is that by ignoring these passages, we do not solve the problem. By ignoring a gaping hole in your head, it doesn’t heal. Likewise, moderate Muslims must admit that these passages exist, and subsequently denounce and distance themselves from them. That is called a reform, I believe. Something that Islam hasn’t ever really had, because the entirety of Qur’an is widely considered to be the exact word of Allah, which would be perfect, in essence. For progression, however, it must first be admitted that there is something wrong within Islam. People have tried in the past, however, they would usually be quieted with death threats. No, there needs to be a fairly large movement for this to work.

I believe that they have done more bad than good. The world would have been here today without religions as well. I think that most religions are used as a way of controlling peoples life. Teaching relgiion to kids is nothing more than propaganda and brainwashing in my opinion.

But this is my opinion and others are free to have a different one.

This was meant to be a discussion about political correctness, but it’s become a flame against the Islamic religion. The topic is now locked.