Revolutionary idea for documenting a dream within a dream!!!

Okay guys,

This is going to be a long but highly interesting post

It all starts a few months back when I saw on discovery channel the program NextWorld. I can’t remember which episode it was. But it was about great advances in how we would be communicating in the future. The one thing that got me really interested in and only now thinking about how it could benefit lucid reaming was sub vocal communication.

Have anyone of you played the Metal Gear Solid games on the Playstation consoles?

Well the main character Solid Snake has this nano machine implant in his head. Which allows him to communicate with his comrades while not actually moving his lips. I always thought this kind of thing was way off, like something happening in 20 years time. But anyway what solid snake was doing is now known as sub vocal communication. I don’t know how old the NextWorld program is but when I was watching it they said this technology will be available to the consumer and professional markets within 2 years.

Okay so how does this work you ask?

You wear this piece of tape on your throat which has electrodes that connect to the vocal cords of the throat. Then it wirelessly communicates with a PC. When you want to speak. You just consciously in your mind say a sentence like ‘hello, how are you?’ This tape on your throat picks up information from the vocal cords and then you can hear in real time on the computer speakers what your saying. So this tape is like a microphone. An invisible microphone that works on silent communication. Now I did a google search and came to an article on newscientist

I don’t think this is the same technology that was being shown on the NextWorld program, the newscientist article is dated 12 March 2008 and the device is rather thick and sits around the whole neck. The article talks of the company behind it who are called ambient corporation and audeo. I googled that and it came up with a company that seems to have nothing to do with them but then several links down the page a website called

So your asking yourself what does this have to do with lucid dreaming?

Just like Stephen LaBarge found that the eye can signal back from a dream with the real world and the features is now termed TWC for two way communication and is built into the remdreamer and dreammaker.

A part of me thinks that sub vocal communication would not work in Non REM dreams, as in these dreams you are on auto pilot and any conversations with a dream character or with yourself are not conscious and so they would not be picked up by the vocal cords. But a conscious dream (LD) would be picked up by the vocal cords. But another part of me thinks all type of dreams should be able to be picked up and it would be better this way.

Some LD sleep masks have an option to wake you up after the REM period ends so you can jot down your dream in your dream journal. The problem with this method is that it interrupts your sleep pattern and makes you feel more tired in the morning and doesn’t help for people who need to be very active at work. So one idea is with this sub vocal communication would be that you wear it while you sleep and when your in your dreams talking to dream characters it documents everything wirelessly to a PC. So basically you can dictate the dream world to a PC for recording all while the dream is taking place. No need to wake up after every REM period to write down your dreams. Also people hate the idea of keeping a dream journal. Constantly having to write in it. Now the other amazing thing is when you become lucid you could limit how long this LD is going to be. For instance you could say to yourself that your not going to be greedy and try to hold onto the lucidity for as long as possible as with this way you may slip out of lucidity and into a normal dream. So from the moment you become lucid you could say okay just 5 minutes and then I will let go, then after about 4 minutes you go somewhere in the dream and start speaking to yourself so that the vocal cords can send back information to the sub vocal communication device on your throat. You tell yourself quick things about the dream world while you were lucid and these can be recorded to the PC. So then instead of upon awakening jotting down the dream in your dream journal which to some can be exhausting especially after just getting up. You could come back to the recording later in the day and play it back and remember other things that happened and write them down in your actual dream journal. Or better while the actual lucid dream is going on you could dictate what your witnessing which will be recorded to your PC.

Now imagine how the above scenario could be actually used as a REM sensor. First let’s imagine that the sub vocal communication device could not detect you speaking silently in non rem dreams but when it does detect speaking in a REM dream then right there in itself you have got a REM sensor. Then it could send a command wirelessly to a sleep mask with a wireless microcontroller that would cue the LED’s to flash to each eyes or cue beeps and audio commands as well to the dreaming self. With the sleep mask holding just a wireless microcontroller and LED’s Both such devices could be very slimline that it would not effect any sleep positions. You could sleep face down into your pillow without risk of damaging the device. Now imagine this, after your getting the light cues and you’ve become lucid you could just turn the light cues off a la TWC. But the way you could do this is via silent talking within the dream world. We could build a command within the PC sleep program that when the sub vocal communication device picks up the words ‘i am dreaming - turn off’ then the PC sends a signal back to the microcontroller telling the light cues to turn off until the next time the sub vocal communicator picks up the REM state again.

Okay so I don’t know if your engineers on here would be too happy paying $2000 for a developers kit just so you can see if this is all possible and develop a working device. So now the next idea is even more revolutionary and could be done right now.

There is this product called the OCZ neural impulse actuator. OCZ is a big hardware manufacturer of PC gaming products such as GPU’s and solid state hard drives SSD among many other things. This neural impulse actuator or NIA as I will call it here is a headband that detects neural thoughts and allows you to control video games using thought alone.

There is another product called the emotiv epoc which does this but to a more advanced degree. The great thing is these things work and have been on sale for a while now. They cost under $150 which is pretty reasonable. The only problem with the epoc is that it is still quite a bulky looking device and makes you look kind of weird. whereas the NIA is just a wireless black headband. I have wondered whether these devices can be used to not only detect all sleep cycles but as well as allowing you to dictate your dreams. Both devices don’t require gel for their electrodes. We wouldn’t need all the features of the epoc so that would mean less electrodes as well. So the total mass and dimensions could be a lot smaller and we just want to detect certain states to do with dreaming so it should really be a lot smaller.

There have been a number of products on the market in recent years for the disabled that allows them to control certain machines such as wheel chairs even computers all via thought. These devices can even move a cursor across the screen and even form words. The epoc and NIA work in a similar fashion but also have far more advanced features. You can watch them on youtube and google them, they really work and they work well. The epoc was also featured on that same episode of NextWorld, I wish I could find the episode so you could see what I am talking about. We could make something like the epoc or buy the epoc and make custom software to see if these ideas can be made. Then we can work from a prototype to a full scale consumer model whether for profit or for just helping the LD community by releasing kits that we can build ourselves. … impulse_ac tuator

I imagine that the epoc could definitely allow you to use your brainwaves to form words that could allow you to consciously dictate the dream world. And as they can detect different states of sleep, when it comes to the REM stage it can signal to a sleep mask that you are dreaming and then it can send light cues to you. all very possible in my opinion. If we can make something similar to the epoc I would imagine first or several generations of the device may not have complete accuracy in forming full sentences via the brain within dreams but it could be enough for your brain to consciously form guide words that can be dictated and record to a PC while the body is dreaming. Then upon awakening these guide words can help you remember the dream so you can jot down the whole story in your dream journal. I think the whole ideas of dictated dreams is really fascinating. We are a long ways off from recording what the brain sees and then showing them on a TV. Probably at the most 40 years away. But imagine this idea of dictated dreams. Imagine if all our dreams were dictated. Right now many people don’t awaken from each of their REM periods and so we forget a lot of our dreams when we wake up. With this dictated idea of dreams we can suddenly listen back on our PC what was going on in dreams that we don’t remember having. This would be amazing and for the dreams we do remember, this would help us for keeping logs of the events in our dream journals, which again can strengthen dream recall which is especially useful for lucid dreaming.

There are so many ways these ideas can be adapted for LD I have lot’s more ideas, I only posted some for now to get the idea across.

So what do you think guys?

Very interesting stuff. I think the audeo seems particularly interesting…if it could do that, which I’m doubtful since I think it takes a bit more than just thinking to have the audio come out, so sleep paralysis could interfere. A suggestion: email them and ask! They seem like an eager startup company and I wouldn’t be surprised if either they already know if that works or if they would love to test it for you.

Many thanks for your reply and input on these ideas

I have been doing some further reading about the audeo from their website and found their FAQ on there which I have cut and pasted some questions and answers which you can see below:

It seems that they don’t have an actual product yet but sell the development kit for people who want to make applications for the technology.

Does the Audeo read an individual’s mind?

The Audeo is controlled solely by the individual who is operating it. The Audeo does not read an individual’s mind. All of the activity that is needed in order to produce the desired result, is controlled by the individual itself. You make use of your neuro-muscular activity to produce signals that allow you to control the system.

So neuro-muscular activity, I wonder if we have that ability while we sleep, even though we go into sleep paralysis I wonder if when we become conscious in our dreams if we still have neuro-muscular activity?

What signals does the Audeo pick up?

The Audeo picks up neurological signals that are sent to the muscles of the vocal cords. These are purely control signals, which mean that a person has to activate these signals physically for the system to actually pick it up.

What activity does one have to do to get the Audeo to work?

A person has to produce control signals that activate the muscles, in order for The Audeo to work. For example, if you try to move your tongue up and down, or your throat forward, muscle contractions will occur in the laryngeal muscles, which in turn will produce the required signal. With some practice, a user can intentionally produce these same signals without any visual indication of activity.

Does it work by just “thinking about speaking”?

It is not enough for a user to just ‘think about speaking’. The user has to produce some physical signal which is what we term as a control signal. There are different examples of producing this control signal, two of which are mentioned above. Another easy way to produce a signal is to swallow. This helps a user to initially learn how to produce a signal. To start with this might be an easy enough method, but going down the line this is not the best way for continued use.

Does it translate my thoughts?

The Audeo does not translate a user’s thoughts. Instead it allows you to control the system by producing signals at any time you want, thereby enabling you to speak out how and when you want to.

With all this said, I wonder if the dreaming mind responds differently to the waking mind. We should look more into this, I will still email the company and see what tests they have done with this device.

On another note I found a review at this site of the OCZ NIA … ulse-actua tor126/

They give it 7/10

The review was written in April 2009 and mentioned that users were creating profiles that interact with written code while they wait for an SDK which OCZ had plans to release to the general public soon. I then found the official OCZ forums, well I think it’s the official forums. … d-Dream-Al arm-using-REM-detection-and-brainwaves

In the above link someone made a lucid dream induction program for the NIA. Now that we are in the mid half of 2010 I wonder if the SDK has been released. I have looked on that forum and see loads of software being made and a number of threads on lucid dreaming. The OCZ community really like the idea of using the NIA for an LD. From that link the poster of the thread who created the LD program said that the NIA just isn’t that good for gaming but could be perfect for reading EEG and EOG signals from the brain.

I live in the UK and the OCZ costs about £85 in the USA around $90-$100 which is pretty decent considering the remdreamer is $200 + more for the REM speaker. Unfortunately I found that the NIA isn’t wireless and requires a USB to PC connection.

I will try posting some of the other threads I read about another piece of software created where the creator was trying to buy some USB LED lights that could work with the NIA and be cued to the dreaming eye when the EOG reading has detected REM.

This is all very interesting, what merkzu was making was pretty much this but for $15. The problem with all these ideas and work being carried out by these people on the OCZ forum is that development suddenly halts, people lose interest. All these ideas I shared are now outdated. We have some pretty active forum members on here which I believe are more technically adapt to finihing such a product. I wonder if you or any others reading this could look into some of the work being carried out on those forums and see if we can finish one of these ideas into a full LD device. Because the nice thing about the NIA is it’s a finished working consumer product on the market which we can just create the software for or reverse engineer or even just create a hardware add on such as a sleep mask with LED’s that can work with it. The NIA headband would probably come off while sleeping so perhaps we could modify it into a sturdy sleep mask!

I am no engineer which is why I am here hoping my ideas could be challenged and taken on by you guys.

I also believe the epoc is a wireless device so perhaps we could have better luck with that. But the problem is merkzu who’s made that EOG device he’s like vanished, he makes a great device but has not even come back to these forums or the other forum which he posted on for months now. Can’t we finish his project, he had released the schematics, can’t we work with them? His plan was to take the prototype from a breadboard and shrink it down onto a PCB. We could just get it onto a stripboard. Or how about we just make it function in a different way. The electrode pads for the temples could connect to the breadboard and the other end to the temples. That way, we could for the time being have a more clunky device by our beside table with 2 cables going to our temples and once all testing is complete then we can get it fitted to a PCB or stripboard for mounting to our forehead via a sleep mask. Can’t we do that?

I found from the ocz forums someone posted a link to this rather interesting pdf,

if you go down to page 18 it talks from there onwards of a new kind of shared dreaming which some believe will be in the new nova dreamer. Read it and tell me what you think. If we could make such a thing possible with a EOG device that would be mind blowing. It looks promising and seems like an excellent way to further strengthen your chances of getting lucid. If you also go further down the pdf file there is a chapter on Lucid fiction which I thought is very interesting, there like comics you read before you go to bed which get’s the mind thinking about lucidity, they did studies on some people and they all reported having lucid dreams.

Anyway that’s enough for now

I would love to hear your ideas and opinions on this

Thanks for reading

Sweet!!! I just found the video from the discovery science program NextWorld of the sub vocal communication. This one is different and being created by someone from Nasa Ames Research Center … n-subvocal

it tracks the vocal cord electrical signals which is called electromyographic signals. I wonder if we could develop our own tech based on these signals.

Keep an eye on them for the next year or so, if I am going to have to wait for a year or so for a LD device from the community then I might as well just buy a remdreamer.

One other interesting development I found

There is this brain interface called the Neurosky mindset which costs $200, that is quite expensive but we could mod it and buy them in wholesale quantity to bring the cost down. The mindset is very much like the OCZ NIA and emotiv epoc. But interesting is that they have an SDK already released and it’s free of charge. The hardware is wireless and only requires a little instrument that touches the forehead and can pick up EEG signals. Then it has a wireless headphone. Now if the forehead instrument can be detached from the headphone and then placed into a sleep mask that would be pretty cool. I read that there SDK can allow the mindset be connected to an arduino microcontroller. That’s very interesting as merkzu design uses an arduino. But this mindset would be easier to develop for as it’s a finished system on sale right now. We could connect the mindset to the arduino microcontroller and then have some LED’s, audio and beeping cues connected and placed in a sleep mask and right there you have an amazing device. Also on the neurosky website it said that the new software has blink detection. So that’s perfect for REM. They have something called research tools that you may or may not need. This costs $500 but is more for professional sleep labs for documenting sleep data. Problem good for a programmer to have to create a software for charting your sleep data if this REM dreaming device could get off the ground. I wonder if you could use the SDK for merkzu design, is that possible? So what do you think of that then?

Mattel who are one of Neurosky’s partners made this product which costs $60 and it’s called the mindflex, it’s won a number of awards. It’s a kids toy for ages 8 and up. It’s interesting as it’s just a wireless headband with some of their technology inside and it can allow you to control a ball with your mind. I wonder if we can purchase one of these and open the headband up and learn on how we can use the technology to make it interface with a microcontroller so that we can make our own affordable LD sleep mask using EEG signals. Is that a possibility?

and this one from mattel as well

These are all the current applications that have been made for the OCZ NIA … NIA-Commun ity-Applications-Directory

From that list here is a cut and paste of the ones to do with a LD with my own comments under each one.

TweetDreams - a PyNIA App which is SDK for Mac/linux in Python

An app that can detect when you are dreaming, via detection of REM sleep. When the software detects you are dreaming, it can post customizable Tweets to you Twitter account!

That sounds a lot like the guide words that your sleeping mind could send with that sub vocal communication device I was talking about in a few posts above!!!

BrainRatX “Neural Mouse Mover”

a Script for those who want to test it as a mouse.

I would say this mouse mover again could be adapted to form words via lucid dreaming.

Luzida BETA v1.0r0

use the NIA to detect the signature brainwave patterns associated with entering REM (The eye movement frequency range) and have it trigger some sort of very soft but gradual fade in of binaural beats. We could even trigger it to run Brainwave Generator with a particular preset

Now that sounds awesome which is a bit like my light and sound machine idea from another thread.

NIA / Lucid Dream Project

an simple app that will ignore input for an hour, from then on… if the NIA triggers the program more than 20 times in a minute with eye movement, it will either play a chosen wav/ogg/mp3 audio file or possibly control a LED(looking at a few cheap options, all less than $10AUS & should be able to attach to the NAI headband), once the sequence is finished, the app will ‘sleep’ for a predefined period, most likely 30-45minutes, before looking for the next REM sleep cycle.

Now that one above is just like the kind of brain interface I have been talking about.

Okay so I also been looking into more technical things about the OCZ NIA

I found this on … -teardown/

hackaday said that the NIA isn’t even that well made, but it’s very interesting. What could we learn from this tech to make our very own LD device? This would be very interesting don’t you think?

Now barebreed or anyone else interested in this when you can please take the time to comment on my last several posts I would like to know your views. When commenting please quote as there is just so much I have written it can get a little confusing what your relating to.

Thanks for reading

BION, the OCZ NIA only records eye movements through the electrodes.

for example, the first time you use it, you can’t just think “fire,” and your character fires in the game. After practice, thinking fire would be associated to a small movement by your SC, which in turn triggers the NIA.

I am aware that you can’t just think fire and it does take a lot of practice to work well.

by the way what do you mean by BION?

You’ve got some interesting ideas here. Particularly the audio one, that would be really cool if it worked. I wonder if when you talk in dreams if you are actually going through the physical motions like you would in real life. And what about the other characters? I mean, it is you pretty much talking for every character (on some level). It would be sick if it could record entire conversations. I doubt it will work though, but who knows. Worth investigation for sure.

I have also had thoughts about using the OCZ NIA as a lucid dream device. It looks like some people are already trying this. So has anyone had success doing this? I haven’t read all those threads you posted yet. Seems promising. Although ideally we would have something we could build from scratch to have the most control over it (and possibly the cheapest cost). Some cool ideas though.

According to THE LUCID DREAM MANIFESTO: ‘Muscular and receptive areas of the body react similarly, if diminutively, during dreams to waking behavioral response to stimuli: McGuigon and Fannel (1971) found significant covert oral behavior during REM’s where there were conversational dreams. Baust, Berlucchi and Moruzzi (1964) discovered that "even the modulations of tone in the fine muscles of the middle ear show phasic and tonic changes during REM’s just as they do in animals responding actively to waking events.” Wolpert (1960) reported that in REM sleep upper motor neuron activity is markedly increased, spikes in the extra-ocular muscles are coordinated with discharge in the visual afferent system, and phasic bursts of muscle potentials may accompany hallucinated movement. In one case he observed “action potential in wrist muscles during REM periods tended to be associated with dream reports including the hallucination of wrist involved activity such as picking up something with the hands.”
These results show a positive association between dream stimuli and neural muscular response in a manner analogous to waking behavior. The subjects in these cases are reacting to the dream situation as if it were a waking experience (although on a less intense level).’

I have been looking into this some more and I am just not sure about the OCZ NIA. As far as I know you need a PC by your bed as the OCZ uses a headband that connects via USB to this device that looks like a over sized power brick and then has another cabled connection to the PC. Unless we can reverse engineer the NIA to make it completely wireless. But really I am not sure, perhaps it’s already wireless. Can someone look into this please? As there is just so much research I can do!!!

Hey topcat,

I see your a new member. So welcome to the forums!

Thanks for doing some research on this…The interesting thing is it shows that we do have muscular control even in REM sleep. Someone mentioned in a post on here that in sleep paralysis maybe our vocal cords don’t work. Sleep paralysis happens in REM sleep. So from that research article you posted. It seems we still have muscular control which is very interesting. I would really like some people to do some tests. If we can create some kind of electrode based on polysomnography or EMG readings then we could test out if the vocal cords work while a subject dreams with it on. The problem is I got no experience in electronics. So I hope these ideas are taken on by someone who has the experience and can realize this dream and build such a device. As this would be a revolution in the world of dreaming. Just imagine how incredible it would be to document dreams. It’s the starting point for full dream recording. i.e visual recording of dreams.

You could also hook with other bodily readings (hands, arms, legs, etc.) and put everything into a computer and interpret what is going on in the dream in addition to speaking or conversation.

I think that’s a bit too advanced. If I understand correctly your saying to track the exact body movements we are doing in our dreams?

If I got the above right, then that’s way more complicated. There would probably be no point. As if we can hear what we are saying to a DC through the vocal cord via EMG then we can just speak within the dream to tell the PC that is recording what we are doing in the dream world. i.e what body movements we are making in the LD.

The ideal mask for multi-player games is one that has very little logic; just transmits eye movement data to the computer and receives commands back to flash a light or sound (or different colored lights or sounds); the computer and the website do all the logic to determine REM and deliberate eye movement signals and coordinate the lucid dreams.

Funny. I was looking to see if I could use my NIA for LDing / REM detection and I end up on ld4all again. Are there any updates on whether people have successfully used the NIA for LDing?