The BIG DreamMaker topic

The distributor (Nova Dreamer) is the Lucid Dream Connection for $700 Bucks…Yikes! :confused: … eamer.html

I pre-ordered the DreamMaker Basic for $200, it doesnt have the mind machine but I plant to get Luna for that, so the mask with cues and lights is all you need. Better to pay $200 than $349 or freaking $1000 for the full-blown deal. :cool_laugh:

A better way will be make a deal with your dog so when you enter REM he will pee in your face so you can become wet lucid. :neutral:

It would be interesting to find out if the dreamer maker is in any way superior to the rem dreamerwhich you can get for a lot less.

well we already know it is superior than the rem dreamer

the novadreamer and the rem dreamer only have a remdetector which works by detecting REM via a sensor which bounces light off the eyelid and then filters out noise or rapid movements.

but the dreammaker does that aswell as this i have copied and pasted this from there website: Electromyography (EMG) which measures facial tension is another good way to determine REM. By combining these two methods as we have done, increases the reliable detection of REM.

So the dreamamker has that second method which shows that the novadreamer and rem dreamer don’t have,

Now one problem the Nova dreamer could be upgraded into a supernova dreamer, now the supernova was where you could connect the nova dreamer into a pc and record all your dream cues when they went off during the night.
Now the remdreamer and novadreamer does not have those features but the dreammaker pro version has a socket which will have that option in the future which is what i am told from an email that i wrote to wellness tools. Also it has a light and sound machine which is basically a control box that connects to a socket on the dreammaker and i think thats the same socket which will allow you to connect it to a pc with a future upgrade kit.

It’s a bit stupid that they did not combine this option with the dreammaker basic.

So recap

Nova dreamer, one sort of rem detector but can be upgraded to supernova dreamer but discontinued.
rem dreamer same as above one sort of rem detector cannot be upgraded
dreammaker basic 2 sorts of rem detection cannot be upgraded
dream maker pro 2 sorts of remdetector, light and sound machine can be upgraded but it will cost something probably over 100 dollars i think.

Is it worth it, i don’t think so, if they can drop the price of the pro version to 350 dollars or include the upgrade kit with the pro version for 500 dollars then great deal, if not thumbs down for this company.

they want to charge a 1000 dollars for the pro version after the first 100 sales, rip off and 500 dollars before.

the basic version was 200 dollars before the 100 sales, but sales has finish and it is selling for it’s retail price now of 350 dollars, again rip off it should be 200 dollars because it cannot be upgraded.

Do we really know it is superior to the rem-dreamer? IMO I don’t think so.

First we have no idea if the dream maker produces better results then the rem dreamer or the nova dreamer for that matter.

Just because it has 2 methods of detecting rem might make it better but, not necessarily superior. If they both produce the same results then neither is superior to the other regardless of how many ways of detecting the rem state it has.

We don’t even know what this thing looks like. Is it comfortable to wear at bed time. It could be the best LD induction device in the world but, if you can’t keep it on your head when you are asleep it’s useless.

Anyway, just some of my thoughts on the matter.

yeah sorry about that perhaps it’s not more superior but just has more features. We just have to see what it turns out to be from future tests from Lucid Dreamers.

That is really the problem is there is not a lot of feed back from people. So far noone has posted any results with the rem dreamer which I think is about $120.00 and still over priced as far as I am concerned.

I think they are all a rip off. I am not saying that they do not work they are just outrageously priced. They control the production so they can keep the prices high.

You could get the same effects with a strobe light and timer. You could likely make your own light and sound machines for a 1/4 of what some of these places charge. It just takes some creativity. I knew some one who could not a afford a light machine so he bought some sort of laser light show thing for like $50.00 and used that with his meditation. That and a CD he had his own light and sound machine.


Did you ever get your DreamMaker?

I ordered one from Wellness Tools
on 01/03/05. Wellness Tools CEO Bruce Gelerter took my order and charged my credit card the same day for $210. He assured me the merchandise would ship on 01/10/05.
But I never received it. He would not return my phone calls, emails, and certified letter.

Finally when I contacted, he wrote that he had issued me a credit. But he hadn’t! It was a lie, to get him off he hook with Yahoo.

I looked around on the Net and found out a few things about Mr. Gelerter, a.k.a. “Wellness Tools” and “Electro-Medical Research, LLC.”:

  • Wellness Tools has a rating of UNSATISFACTORY with the Better Business Bureau of Southern Colorado.

  • I found three other customers who also ordered merchandise from Wellness Tools and never received it after payment. Two of them area at … D=56.topic

  • All three describe Gelerter as a “rip-off artist”. That has also been my experience.

  • Gelerter was sued in 1998 by the Dept. of Banking and Finance, Division of Financial Investigations of the State of Florida.

  • He filed for Chapter 13 bankruptcy in 2003.

  • He has been posting to numerous bulletin boards including support groups for dibetics with sale pitches such as this one:

Not only is this a false or unverified medical claim, but it is spam that violates the no commercial notices policy of those bullentin boards.

I hope you are able to recover your money. If you paid by credit card, you should write the credit card company (at the address for billing errors on your statement) requesting a chargeback.

You may wish to file complaints with the Internet Fraud Complaint Center, FTC, FDA, Colorado Attorney General’s Office, Yahoo Stores, and your local law enforcement.

Places to complain in order to let other consumers know are,

Good luck!

ouch :sad:

Hi Nick,
Relax, everything is OK. We are first shipping the DreamMakers this coming Wednesday we had delays in manufacturing, but we are ready to roll now.
Bruce Gelerter - CEO

-----Original Message-----
From: nick [mailto:myemailadres]
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 4:18 AM
Subject: question about an order

HI, at 22/01 I ordered a dreammaker (order number 24985), I payed trough paypall and the money already came on my visa card, but I still haven’t received it yet …

any suggestions, ideas ? I tried to track the product, but I don’t seem to have an account …

[my information censored]

a long time ago someone posted about a similar device you can build for a few dollars, with normal sunglasses and little green and red blinker lights
does anyone have info on this now i was thinking of trying her out

Well there are a few threads about building your own goggles. But I think the one you are talking about is here.
I have said this many times before but, Just hook up a strobe light to a timer. You can get the same effect for a lot less money. You don’t get rem detection so you have to do some guessing but, it’s better than getting ripped off, spending a small fortune or investing a great deal of time building your own goggles.

Finally, any light sound machine is not going to automatically give you lucid dreams. You still have to train yourself to recognize the cues the devise gives. Some of those ques are not all that obvious.


I have been suspicious about this device for some time. Thanks for the links. I had no idea that wellness tools had such a bad rep. I hope you can get your money back. You might also want to complain to your local attorney general also (since they ship them by mail) the US Postal Service might be willing to investigate. Complain to anyone who will listen to you.

Thanks, milod789. Sounds like good ideas.

The Wellness Tools FAQ says that they only ship by UPS because the mail is “to unpredictable at times” (to avoid the jurisdiction of the Postal Inspector, no doubt). Do you have any information that they have shipped something by US Mail?

In any case, they are engaging in interstate commerce, which puts them under federal jurisdiction. Guess the Feds are too busy chasing terrorists to worry about one small-time con man.

Maybe I’m naive, but I really didn’t know that people like Bruce Gelerter existed, and were able to function right out in the open. He’s a totally shameless liar and will say anthing. He tells people what they want to hear and knows exactly how to play the system. Every few years he moves to a different state and starts a new “business”.

If anybody has doubts, just Google for his name and see what pops up.

I just looked at the web site, and thought it looked legit. It should have been a tip off that he wouldn’t ship by mail, that the “order tracking link” on his website does not exist, and that his phone number wouldn’t accept a call with caller ID blocked.

Also, I think Stephen LaBerge holds at least one patent on the Novadreamer, which the “Dream Maker” as described on the website would probably infringe.

BTW, no one has ever seen even a picture of the “DreamMaker”. If it exists, why dosen’t Gelerter put a picture of it on his web site?

What really gets me are the spam posts he make to diabetes support groups–they are really apalling. Nothing worse than a quack who sells worthless medical device to sick people.


Ask Gelerter to explain why Wellness Tools has a rating of “UNSATISFACTORY” from the Southern Colorado Better Business Bureau ( click on “Company Reports” and type in “Wellness Tools”).

It’s a safe bet that for every person who complained to the BBB, there must be five who just said “ah, screw it!” and did a chargeback.

BTW, remember that you only have 60 days from the first statement on which the charge appears to do a chargeback for a “billing error”.
After that, you’re only remedy will be to sue and then try to collect a judgement from Gelerter (who filed Chapter 13 bankruptcy in 2003).

here is a working link to the BBB report on wellness tools. For some reason yours did not work.

Also it is worth a shot to complain to the news media like: shame on you or help me Howard. Write to reporters who investigate consumer fraud cases.

thanks, I’ll mail him this afternoon !

(btw, I payed through paypall, but how should I ask a chargeback ? :silent:)

Orion 12, I did get my Dream Maker.

After some very un-successful testing it’s for sale on Ebay. IMO, facial tension shouldnt be the only matter for detecting REM. I was actually having a lucid on my own wearing the thing, and I had set the brightness to the highest level and audio alarm and there were no triggers. I tested with new batteries as well. If you put the mask on and switch “4” to ON. You should be able keep your eyes close and move them from left to right and it should trigger. Only eye fluttering (where the eye actually opens) it appears to trigger. I don’t want to knock the product, it may work for others just fine. If someone has better results they should post here; this is all my personal opinion!

I dont know much about Bruce. He did answer the phone most times when I called and delivered around the time he said he would, so I felt he was honsest.

My 2 Cents

Please do not confuse and they are completely different. doesnt have any negative ratings!


Well, I dont want to BASH the product, but in my period of testing, I didnt feel that REM was getting detected. The ad says it added Facial Movments (i.e twitching) and REM detection. I turned of switch 4 (this removes the 40min delay) and put the mask on. I kept my eyes close then moved them around and around back and forth and no queue. However, it will pick up “Eye Fluttering”, (open and closing of the eyes very fast). I was actually having a lucid on my own (wearing the mask) and in the dream I saw nothing (no cues that would possibly be lights, and NO sound (I turned on the alarm). All this is in my testing and my opinion and – I am interested in hearing other reviews.

From the AD:
So what we did was to add another way to detect REM. It turns out that Electromyography (EMG) which measures facial tension is another good way to determine REM. By combining these two methods as we have done, increases the reliable detection of REM.

In short, I dont think facial twitching alone will let you know your dreaming. And why did he put ONE sensor when you have TWO eyes? That doesnt make sense either. I ended up selling it because it didnt meet my satisfaction.


It didnt detect REM sleep at all during the night?

How many times did you try it?

About 5 nights I think. Which wasnt long, and other users could have better results.