Yea, Ive seen that style battery, its pretty nice. What exactly is your level of experience in electronics? Also, honestly, if you are completely serious about this, I find the IR approach a bit odd. I suggest you do some research on EOG. I know there is an ancient thread on here from someone who built a dream detection device based around that and an atmel microcontroller.
I am a complete beginner in electronics but am a fast learner and very keen to take on a project.
Here I found from a forum search on here some threads back EOG part this is the one I think you are talking about
A long while back there was a guy on here called meusopusmagnus and he was working on EEG type device for detecting REM by wearing something on your finger. Unfortunately his profile shows he hasn’t visited the site for a few years. Of course all of these methods were being worked on years ago with nothing coming out. IR sensors have come a long way and I think there more simple and accurate now with the current state of technology. Which is why I would rather go down the route of IR sensors.
Here is a real world product that uses EOG technology. greatlakesortho.com/commerce … ?nPID=1752 The watch PAT-200 and watch pat-100 by imatar medical. Both models cost $5000, they detect REM/NREM and loads of other things all from a sensor on the finger. Now if only we could create that tech for under $100. If we bought one of these and stripped it apart and made the device light up some LED’s when the sensor picks up REM.
I really like the EOG method personally since it is medically valid. Another way is detecting muscle tonus near the chin(dont remember the muscle) since due to sleep paralysis it goes low during REM sleep. Also, the device you sent me uses the PAT method, this is also medically verified…you should look at it in more detail… I have not seen any hobbyist attempts at using it.
We could go on for another few years and get nowhere with development if we continue to look at other technologies for detecting REM. I seen it happen here for the last 5 years, it’s got nowhere. We are all trying to make that best device using new tech when we are better off taking things like IR sensors which are real and readily available and just making a simple REM detecting device without all the best of the best features which you will never use like found in other very expensive LD devices. Sure with other tech we may get better results, but IR sensors shouldn’t be overlooked.
I suppose. I just know a lot of people don’t like to wear a mask to sleep. EOG is actually not too difficult to implement using simple op-amps and reading in the voltage level through the adc on a chip. Heck, if you wanted to go as absolutely simple as possible you could create a small opamp circuit wired to a timer such as the 555 and just record the voltage as a frequency using standard mic/line in port on a computer.
I have been interested in this concept for a long time… but didn’t want to pay up to 140.00 bux for something I new I could make myself… if in fact that is the least expensive price.
But there are a lot of us who may not be able to afford such luxury.
In one of the reply post I read a suggestion about making a wireless unit.
You might think this as being difficult… but I assure u it is not… and will prob only cost you about 20.00 to make a wire dream goggle.
For starters if you’ve ever own a wireless mouse (optical mouse) you’d notice that if you place this mouse over your eye lid ( where the light shines through) and roll your eyes… as if you were in rem sleep…. Well…. The light will shine brightly.
Ok, I have purchase 2 optical wireless mice from odd lots… each for 6.99. I have taken then apart… I used glue from a glue gun that u can place into a hot glue gun… careful it’s hot… lol. And put glue all over the little shinny parts. This is solder. The reason for the glue is to keep anything from shorting out. And to keep the little solder connections from touching your skin…. Only 2 – volts… but on eye lids might tingle… lol.
Also make sure batteries are not connected when applying glue. The goggle I also purchased from odd lots for 2.99, the rubbery flimsy kind. Gives you enough area to place electronics inside. Odd lots has black spray paint for .99 – 1.99.
Spray only the outside of goggles with the paint.
Ok…. Well this is as far as I have gotten… but for a device so inexpensive…. As to which you might even be holding in your hand as you read this is a great idea…. Considering…… It detects rem….rapid eye movement.
The only down fall to this at the monument… is it doesn’t flash… it just gets bright through the eye lid. There is however on you tube an electronic gadget that they show you step by step on how to build that will cause a led to flash rapidly. This I will be working on some time next week.
Ill keep you informed. Oh…btw…. If you’re handy; you can even un-solder the led from the mouse… and use any color you want.
I went to radio shack and bout 2 blue leds for 1.99 each…a and just put then in same place as the red ones from the mice.
Hope you like this idea… im still playing with mine…. Getting the optics in the right place to detect the rem stage will be kind of tricky… might even have to use a piece of double sided sticky take to bring closer to eye.
Tell me what you think… ill try to see if I can get pics to ya…. In details.
Later all….have fun.
indeed, this is a simple method of using readily available parts. I think this idea has been tossed around before, I know Ive given a shot or two. and if you want wireless, just buy a wireless mouse. I want to mention to you that in terms of the light you could instead of replacing the LED with another visible color, replace it with IR LED and it will work just fine. In terms of signaling, it is also easy to write a program that tracks the mouse movements and thus could control when signals are given.
In my experiments with this method the trickiest thing, as you have found, is getting the optics right. the installed optics are meant to be very close to the object it is tracking. Either new optics are needed to allow it to focus from farther away or else it needs to be brought close to the eye, which can be difficult unless you use a very small mouse.
I wish you the best of luck. do feel free to post pics. if you get it working you could consider writing an instructable/tutorial on how to make it.
I’l admit I know almost nothing about electronics and all that but i had one idea:
- get some cheap or old headphones.
- Cut off the heads of them, so you have the jack and some wire.
- (this is the part that I don’t know is posible) attach the LEDs to the end of the wires
- Plug it into an alarm with a headphone jack, so long as it will turn itself off, or not if your fine with flashing lights.
- If this works as i think it might, the leds should start flashing.
Sorry if this idea’s already been posted or if its complete nonsense, just thought it worth sharing
EDIT: Another idea: Might this be more effective if only one eye is shined on? We’re used throughout the day to seeing things with two eyes, if in a dream you say a flash of light, but it was only half there and sorta flickery like it would be if you say it only with one eye it might be more noticeable.
i have done this once… yes it is possible to do this. however you will need to dis essemble the alarm clock radio and solder right into the wires connecting to the speaker. the music playing through to the leds has the voltage that is moderate… it changes… causing the leds to flickers dim and bright… etc.when i did mine… i poked a small hole in back of radio to feed the wires from the speaker to the leds.
set the alarm to a certain time… and u might get the lucid dream you.ve been waiting for. the only bad thing about this option is it is considred a hit or mis.
meaning you could go weeks before it happens mainly because the is not way to tell if your rem sleep will happen at the axact time you set. but it is the mose in-expensive way to go. one thing you need to look out for… is the head phones.
the headphones in production today have a webbed fiber type wire… it is very very difficult to cut and splice. your best option is to look for cheapest oldest headphones you can find… like garage sales, pawn shops, odd lots… etc. because that type is older style wire… that has plastic coating. it worked for me… im sure it’ll work for you… and no, you dont have to be electronic savy to do this. give it a try. i myself never had any luck with it… thats y im trying the mouse trick… because the sensor in it will be able to detect my eye lids moving during rem.
been very ill latley; in and out of hospital… so havnt been able to complete the mouse eye ware. but soon, and ill let u all know how it goes.
Hey everyone, just thought Id mention something interesting I just now managed to do. I got a “bus pirate” for christmas(google it/look on hackaday, its a sweet tool) and managed to take complete control over an optical mouse sensor. This is nice because it means I should be able to(if I ever get a chance) interface the chip directly with another microcontroller and completely remove the computer from the equation. Admittedly this isnt as easy to do as just strap a mouse to your face, but it also has much greater opportunities for customizing and perfecting a smaller, more portable, accurate, and comfortable design.
rw43068- I hope you recover quickly from whatever illness you had.
I’m building a dream mask that uses EOG based on arduino. It has a configure mode where there is a menu driven configuration over serial, and output mode where EOG data is sent over serial. It has autotuning for the EOG amps, variable LED brightness/flash sequences, configurable “fall-asleep” delay, “TWC” (can interact with it via eye movements like remdreamer), post-REM wake up alarm and a regular alarm clock.
It’s still a work in progress on a breadboard right now, but its promising. Graphing the EOG data is really cool, I hope to replicate some of LaBerge’s experiments. This is a graph of a nap I took a few days ago. The EOG is still kind of noisy, I hope to clear it up with more filtering. I am just using disposable EKG electrodes for now.
Above 500 is an eye movement to the left, and below 500 is an eye movement to the right. Thats about 3 hours squished together, in the software I can zoom in on specific areas. I still need to add timestamping to the graph.
This is how it looks so far:
I got the circuit and software completed and it works great. I also found a company that was willing to send me a couple samples of some nice reusable electrodes to use with it.
I’m impressed. I must say congrats on seeing all your hard work come together. I look forward to any schematics/code you may release. Now you just have to perfect it/shrink it down. Out of curiosity, what language is your computer software written in?
Once again congrats on successfully piecing this together and good luck in continuing development.
Hm, nvm. Just noticed that you had a more in detail thread elsewhere. Hope you don’t mind my posting a link to it here so others interested in knowing a bit more details about it can have a look. arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaB … 67726728/0
looks good so far. I look forward to seeing how it evolves.
Thanks. On the PC side I just use Minicom to configure the settings over serial, and use KST to graph the output data. The code for the microcontroller is written in the Arduino IDE. I’ll be writing a standalone app for it probably in Java
Next step is to see if I can get it small enough on a PCB to comfortably fit on a sleep mask. I’d like to use what I have but I may have to switch to surface mount components to get it small enough, will have to see. I’ll post updates as I go
Very nice. Surface mount components really aren’t that bad and I believe you mentioned on your other thread you sampled most of your components so its not like it’d cost much (if any) more money. Would definitely be able to shrink it down that way(especially the avr).
I’ve done quite a bit of PCB and Java work. While its obvious you are perfectly capable of managing this project on your own, if you ever want a second opinion on anything feel free to PM me.
Good luck, and I look forward to the updates.
Awesome work!!! way to go, this is totally amazing.
Any new updates on this merkzu???
I was just reading about the zeo the other day and was really hoping someone could make such a device for lucid dreaming.
I got some questions for the creator
Why did you choose to track the eye movements through the temple and not the frontal lobes?
The zeo personal sleep coach tracks the frontal lobes which are located on the forehead using foam pads which you don’t need to use any gel. They said their tech which they call softwave is patented and is based on polysomnography which they say is the most reliable way of detecting sleep cycles including REM and that this is what they use in sleep labs all around the world.
The zeo is a wireless device that communicates on the 2.4mhz band, the zeo alarm clock has an sd card which all the nights sleep data is recorded onto which can then be viewed by inserting it into a PC.
Once you have this device able to be mounted into a sleep mask would it then wirelessly communicate with a PC?
Can you not make a console that communicates with the headband wireleslly without needing a computer by your bed?
I see that your headband has the same tech like the remdreamer which is TWC for two way communication. The remdreamer has just got this new upgrade out which is a rem speaker that can work with TWC do you think your device could support this, the remspeaker allows you to record an audio clip which can be played when the rem sensor detects that you are dreaming.
I would love to see this device of yours being able to have the following features
light and beep cues
console with microphone for recording audio cues (so no computer needed)
4 LED’s for each eye, a light and sound machine upgrade for the future that could get your brainwaves ready for lucid dreaming. This is what the dreammaker pro has. Maybe we can forget this feature.
Anyway if you could have all those features and maybe or maybe not the last one then that would be so awesome.
I would love to see you building these as a complete unit and as well offering the flashed chip and parts for people to build it themselves.
Awesome and please keep up the great work, this is amazing work that really has got to be finished. The best idea I have seen in many years.
Thanks very much for reading
While I obviously can’t comment on the work that merkzu has done, I would like to address some of the things about Zeo and possibilities for merkzu.
I may be getting to work with Zeo soon and I’d suggest you keep your eye on it for exciting improvements. Zeo uses the headband on the forehead for several reasons. It is the most comfortable way of arranging it without covering your eyes (not everyone likes a sleep mask). They also are primarily using EEG and want to monitor all sleep stages, not just REM. As such they are more focused on monitoring your brainwaves. That being said, if positioned correctly I’ve been told that EOG can be seen as well.
In terms of improvements to merkzu’s design. I think everything you listed is certainly possible. For wireless communication: either you could use a simple (but expensive) bluetooth protocol, or I’ve actually been working with some cheap microcontrollers with wireless built right into them. Light cues are easy. I would suggest that for the audio…instead of having a microphone with recorder(though certainly possible), a mp3 decoder with a SD card slot would be much more adaptable. Record/edit/pick a song you like, load it on the card, and you would be good to go.
I definitely think there is a market for this kind of thing…and have been working on general ideas in my head. Wish I had more time to work on a prototype of my own.
Many thanks for taking the time to reply
the cheap microcontrollers you mention seem a good way to go for wireless. The sd is interesting but i wanted to completely eliminate the use of a pc. like the remspeaker from the remdreamer it has a microphone. I think the idea of an sd card would be greatr as well for putting audio like you said on it but also to record all sleep data on to it for playback on a pc like the zeo does.
I don’t understand how your getting to work with zeo soon, i thought it’s a closed system and so that means the makers are not going to release their sdk?
i was googling and found 2 other rem devices one of them a piece of software for an iphone and the other a wrist watch rem device. perhaps we could adapt these into a sleep mask type device.
Glad you liked my suggestions. I’m not sure how easy/hard adding a microphone aspect would be, but it is certainly possible. I like the idea of using the SD card for data storage as well.
Yes, Zeo is currently a closed system…but I may be getting a chance to work with them regardless. I’d keep an eye on them for the next year or so for many improvements. From talking with them I know that they are a great company eager to listen to and help out their users.
The problem I have with the two sleep detecting devices you cited is that they are pretty inaccurate. They use body movement to detect a general idea of how awake you are. One of the most exciting things about merkzu’s design was that it has direct access to actual eye movement. This allows for things like signaling in your sleep back to the real world. I also personally think EOG is a more direct and reliable method.