Time dimension in lucid dream scenario

I’m new to LD, but have watched 12 episodes of a Stephen LaBerge interview (youtube.com/watch?v=PwcFa3y–h0).

My main question is: when you can control the scenario of your dream, and consider that time itself is merely an element of the physics within your environment, can you dream for infinity?

I expect the answer to be that noone ever accomplished this, but in theory, should it be possible?

Note that I’m looking for a scientific answer, not one based on experiences (although that is also appreciated).

Looking from a dream perspective and perception, maybe.

Looking from a scientific side, no. Why? Because we sleep in intervals of 90 - 120 minutes, after that we awake and next cycle of 90 - 120 minutes begins. And only max of 45 minutes is REM sleep where we mostly dream…

But the fact that it may take a maximum of e.g. 90 minutes in real life does not mean that the dream scenario also needs to last 90 minutes, right?

I don’t believe it would work up until infinity. To everyone else, they would wake up at some point. If they woke up, then the dream must have ended. If it ends, then it’s finite, no matter how much time they spent in the dream.

That’s not to say that you can’t have dreams that last longer than seems possible. It’s just that infinity isn’t.

Getting lucid dreams that last for a long time is really something I want to work on in summer, because some people have said stuff about time distortion in a dream… I really want to test how far I can push it, I’ll let you know if I get any nice results.
As for your question, I’m not sure if its really possible, but the brain can do wonders, and I don’t think we really understand everything in order to answer it scientifically yet.

Yes, even Stephen LaBerge proved that dream time and real time is almost the same, but very often we have false memory from dreams and that is when we have a feeling that we dreamt a scenario that lasted for 3 days for example, so if we look at things that way then there is no rule how long we can dream in dream time, at least how we perceive that time…

Your question seems paradoxical. If someone were to say yes they would need to have had a dream that lasted for an infinite amount of time, but if they have woken up from it to post about it here, it would have to have been finite.

Stephen LaBerge has proved, that dream time is EXACTLY like IRL time. He did experiments regarding the time dimension in dreams and came up with this conclusion using similar techniques which were used to actually prove the existence of lucid dreams. And this conclusion, in my opinion, is pretty logical. You cannot extend dream time, since it is synchronized with IRL time. I believe you could have a slow-motion dream or something like that if you wished to, but the time element won’t change and your dream will be the same length. So the movie “Inception” is totally wrong at this point, because it is based on time differences between Waking World and the Dream World.

That would also mean that you could extend the dream time if you would like to, right?

But if the dreamer was asked to count ten second like he was after the signal for start then he would count those 10 seconds like he would in WL and then give the signal for stop.

But do you think that this can be applied for every dream or only for dreams where you are focused on time and time only?!

The fact is that we do not control the dream, we only control the segments of the dream and time is only one segment and this could mean that it’s not controlled when we do not have an attention to control it…

No, you will not be able to extend dream time, even if it is in slow-motion. Look at dreams as empty disk space, let’s say - 1 gigabyte of space. You can fill this space with a movie of any sort (which would represent a dream). The movie can be a normal speed film, or a slow-mo film. Whatever it is, fill that 1 GB. You can change the movie (and the dream scenario), but you cannot change the space of 1 GB (the time period of dreaming, the dream time and waking life time). It does not matter whether you are focused on the time or not, time ticks as fast as in WL, meaning if you have lived 20 minutes in a dream, you have lived the same amount of minutes in WL.

Agree, but this is only a logical conclusion based on our physical life and I agree with it, but that doesn’t matter in a dream because you don’t look at things in that way when you are in a dream. What happens in a dream and how we perceive that it’s actually what makes an impression on us.

It’s exactly like flying. I flew in almost every dream and I can describe the feeling and experience but it doesn’t mean anything in a physical world because here humans can not fly, as they can not manipulate time or at least make an impression that we can as you can do that in a dream although in WL time was as it is in WL and in a dream it could be completely different!

And at the end which one does it matter?!

The experiences in dreams are pretty physical and perceivable (our brains make us feel the wind rushing when we fly, our brains make us feel the taste, the smell, the feel etc.). However, time is something different. Time is a dimension, rather than a feeling, some physical thing or something you can manipulate. Time is stationary. You cannot change it. The only variable here is the human mind. We humans are awful at measuring time. When we have fun, time goes faster for us, when we are bored, time goes slower. However, the time is same, our perception of it is just different. You can apply that to a dream to some extent. I.e. you can have a fun dream, where you are at an amusement park. If that dream lasted for 20 minutes, you would say, that it lasted only for 15. If you chose to have a boring dream, let’s say, sitting in a dark dull room, looking at a wall. If that dream lasted for 20 minutes, you might say it lasted for 25. The time (20 minutes) is stationary and cannot be changed or manipulated. Both dreams last for 20 minutes. Only our awful perception of time and inability to correctly measure it leads to problems. It works in WL as well, not only in dreams. But there is no way that you could dream for 2, 3, 4 or 10 hours. It’s just not really possible with a normal sleep schedule, unless you’re in a coma or something like that.

Yes and again I agree, you are right but that doesn’t matter in dreams because only what matters is what and how we perceive an experience. That’s not based on Inception where Cobb is explaining Ariadne that when we are in a dream that it feels real, it’s proved on scientific bases…

There was a research where a subject was asked to look at the apple and his brain was transmitting specific brain waves and then the subject was asked to imagine the same apple without actually physically looking at it and his brain was transmitting the same brain waves, so to the brain experience is not based on something that actually happened physically or what we imagined(in this case we can took dreams for example) it’s based on both and then perception and believe comes into the factor when we can say what happened or what did not happened based on our own perception on things.

Even though time is a dimension and can not be changed it’s only one of the factors from this physical world that are defined by physical laws still it doesn’t matter on how we perceive time, like you said yourself when we have fun time is passing much faster and when we are bored it’s very slow but that perception and it’s what matters(at least to me). Who says that time exist in the way that we measure it? Who can say for sure that minute exist and that this is actually 60 seconds?

That’s again perception of time that we humans have and it’s nothing more different then a language, it’s something that we defined to make things easier. If the world isn’t so much defined by the time, time as we know it wouldn’t even exist…

I’ve heard of the experiments with the brain you’ve mentioned. It is something that could allow dreams to be recorded and watched simply on TV. That would be fascinating. Though, I don’t know why you say that the brain experience is NOT based on physical information. The subject saw the apple (a physical thing), the brain memorized it’s shape, and could recreate it later on (memorized shape). A person, who has never seen an apple, would not be able to recreate it. The brain needs a physical shape to memorize. In the same way our dreams are created. We base our dreams by the objects we know IRL. We can even merge the abilities of two objects in a dream, thus creating things like flying cows or singing elephants etc. But all the information is based on something that physically exists in the real world, or something we simply saw on TV, read in some books or imagined using our creative mind. A painter needs canvas and colors, a dreamer needs a healthy brain with information to base the dream on.

You’re right about time. We defined the seconds, the hours. It might have been as well something different. The same goes for other dimensions (we measure length, area, volume). But the fact that we defined seconds and minutes does not mean that we defined time itself (or length, area or volume). Time has always existed since the Big Bang and will exist until the end of the Universe (if such end ever comes). Time, as well as other dimensions are not controlled by us, we can only measure them, watch them and use them pasivelly. We cannot manipulate them. It seems that you agree with this as long as we are talking about the real life. But what about dreams then? Do you think that other dimensions exist in a dream, or do we have abilities to control these 4 dimensions in a dream? I really doubt that. While it is true that “You can do everything in a dream” there is a border for what our minds can do. We cannot imagine more than 4 dimensions (some people hardly even imagine the 4th itself). Our brains are the same in our dreams as in WL. We do not get some “special” mental abilities in a dream. All of our dreams are based on the 4 dimensions we know. They will be similar to real life and unchangable. We will only be able to use them pasivelly, just like IRL. We cannot control dimensions, since they are not supposed to be controlled. We can only measure and use them, as I said, passively. Many physical laws do not apply to dreams - that is true, since we can remove gravity, we can go through walls etc. However, dimensions are not controlled by physical laws either. They just exist as they do. We have no specific physical laws, which tell us, why length is length, or why time is time as we know it. Since dimensions are “untouchable”, no human being, no force or law of nature could modify it. Therefore, dimensions exist in dreams, but we cannot add more dimensions or modify the existing ones, since we aren’t capable of perceiving such things. Thus, time is unchangable and stationary both in dreams and in waking life. If you measure time in seconds and minutes, these “seconds” and “minutes” will be the same in a dream as in waking life. And that is the point of the thread, answer to the question OP asked (and proven by S. LaBerge scientifically).

If you want to discuss the nature of dimensions, our methods of measuring the dimensions and whether these methods are valid, it would require a new thread, since it is a topic outside of lucid dreaming.

Well, yes. I agree completely with you about the part from WL. :grin:

I didn’t said that’s not based on physical experience, I said that’s not based ONLY on physical experience. If it were, then there wouldn’t be a little thing called IMAGINATION!

The thing about that is that I don’t know. Like anybody else. Scientists still didn’t figure out why we dream. They have theories but they are just theories. They don’t know truly, there are just some theories more appealing and more logical then others.

If we go by what science(which I prefer) proved then time in dreams and WL is the same as anything else. But if we assume that’s not the case which could be true then things don’t apply any more in the same sense.

Well, before S. LaBerge there was a theory that we cannot control our dreams which he disproved, who knows maybe one day comes a scientist that will prove that dreams are not only only in our mind/brain and then this is all possible…

Yes, new theories come, and old ones get rejected. But that’s what keeps such discussions going, isn’t it? :smile:

The dream research branch is still very young. We will certainly have most of the answers in 5-10 years. Until then, we can only fantasize about what technologies await us :happy:

But doesn’t that guy WritersCube have dreams that last longer than his sleeping period? I for one believe it may be possible if we trick our minds into perceiving time slower or something.

Damn! You beat me to talking about Writer’sCube! Yeah, he completely blows this out of the water with his clock technique. You can’t disprove it because all of the information from the dreams are there. So… I agree to the waking life vs. dream time being the same. I don’t agree that it isn’t possible to dream for a long time, infinity is pushing it.
I hear that it is mostly making the brain think faster or compiling small information to feel like a long one- that’s false because Writer’sCube doesn’t compact his dreams. Man, that guy really changed the way people think about time in sleep.
Please correct when i’m wrong, i’m adaptable.