Two and a half hours of sleep paralysis but no LD!

Yep, I meant it IS possible.

It’s saddening that most peeps go all like “You should always attempt WILD only with WBTB!”

I never said it was impossible. But it is much much harder for the average person.
So why recommend the hard way? You can always try WILD before sleep once you have mastered WILD the easy way. If i tried to WILD for months-years in evening and failed, then i would probably have given up at the end.

I hope this was not aimed at me? As i have never ever mentioned anything about the WBTB method. WBTB involves waking up and staying awake for a certain time of the day. Waking up and go straight for WILD has nothing to do with the WBTB method.

Do you have any facts on that? I have never heard of anyone proving that they can be lucid during deep sleep.

No, it was not aimed at you.

Do some research, use google. REM is not needed. I don’t have to prove anything.

I don’t like debates, so. it’s seems like you and I always get into arguements.

Im having some of the same problem, only that i actually give up after half an hour :razz:

What shoul i concentrate on ?

I tend to lay watching my eyelids hehe

When doing that i see colored dots and strings there, and sometimes i have HI i think, which is like a faint picture.

and the picture mainly just faints away.

Any tips ?

Ok, I will try to clear up some things here.
First HH is not just any hallucination, if it was then it would not have a special name. HH happens when you are on the threshold to sleep. colours and flashes of light are just a sign that you have your eyes closed long enough that the light reception nerves in you eyes start producing random signals. HH is when the brain starts adding information to make complete pictures. This is the beginning of the transition phase to sleep, when the brain make up everything. Up to this point they are just random signals. It is the same with tinnitus. Lots of people have tinnitus while they are awake. It does not have anything to do with HH. HH is sound that makes sense, like words. Flashing lights and loud tinnitus tend to come just before HH, but that is because you are very relaxed. In a relaxed state, with your eyes closed and in a quiet room, you become more aware of these things. It is a sign that you are getting relaxed enough for WILD, but it is not HH.
As for WILD and WBTB. It is defiantly easier to do WILD with WBTB or with naps. Some people can have dreams in non-REM sleep, but they tend to be less vivid, and fuzzy. Remembering dreams that happen early in the night is also more difficult. Dreams that come later in the night tend to erase the memories of earlier dreams. That means that if you do WILD when you go to bed you should try to wake up right after the dream so that you can remember it. ( most people who start out with WILD at night say that they can’t wake up during the night and that is why they do not want to do WBTB. ) You will probably have fuzzy LD’s if you remember them, and you will be doing a lot of work for this without even knowing if you can WILD.
Because of all of that, for beginners that have not had a LD yet, I will continue to say that they should not start with WILD when they go to bed. That is kind of like saying “I have heard that mountain climbing is lots of fun, I am going to try to climb Mt. Everest.” Even if a person can do WILD at bedtime without WBTB, they should probably not start with that. There is someone who is right now posting that he has been trying WILD for 7-8 months without success. There are easier ways for beginners to learn LD’ing. I think that it makes more sense to suggest that they try something that gives easier faster results. After they know that they can LD, then they can work on the more difficult techs. and see if they work for them.
I also admit that there are people who can do WILD within the first week of trying, but there are not very many of them.
don

I just meant that i find no scientific evidence backing this up. I know a few people claim they have non REM dreams, but how do they know for sure that it is not REM? I am not saying it is impossible, but i really find it hard to believe that you can be conscious during a period where you brain is nearly inactive.

And no, i dont want to debate this either as i have no proof either. :smile: I was more in debate mood about recommending WILD before sleep or after.

But where do you draw the line? For me it starts with the random noise of shapes and colours that does not resemble anything. This random noise will then start forming simple shapes of picture or objects and will slowly get more complex the closer i am to the egde of sleep. So in my opinion HI starts simple and progresses into more complex images at a deeper state.

Tomas, there have been lots a scientific researches about NREM dreams. It’s now admitted by all the sleep researchers that’s it’s possible to have NREM dreams.

Second, hypnagogic hallucinations happen in the hypnagogic stage. Random noise (phosphenes) happen all the time and you can see them as soon as you close your eyes. You’re right about the fact that HI forms from these phosphenes, but saying that some imagery forms from phosphenes means also that they can be distinguished. And generally, you’ve suddenly an image that appears from simple shapes, it’s not such gradual.

So I completely agree with don about these two points.

The weird thing is - when I WILD I usually hear some “true” sounds, rather then just a high pitched noise.
Mostly, I hear loud music. Sometimes I hear some voice mumbling, or other types of sounds.
Is that normal, or am I going nuts? :eh:

I was talking about lucid dreams.

Well, for me it is gradual. A image usually just does not pop up from nowhere for me. First i see shapes which then evolves to more shapes and also colours, then these shapes start forming simple objects, which then turn to simple outlines of a scene or flashes of pictures and finally they form fully photorealistic images or scenes.
How can you say that the more simpler images are not HI? You cannot deny it being HI when this so called noise actually start forming objects or simple scenes.

It might not be gradual for you, but it is for quite a few people including myself. You cannot compare this to for example the random noise you get from pressing your eyeballs. “i do not advice anyone to try this as it can damage your eyes”

The reason i reacted so strongly, was that don20853 claimed that HI equals complete pictures or faces, when it can infact start out as simple outlines or forms before it develops into a full blown picture.

Completely normal afaik :smile: I have everything from high pitch sounds"like someone tuning a radio, wind, voices, screaming, laughing and complex music with lyrics and everything. I more often experience vision or tactile sensations though.

good that its normal, much more relieving as i wanna try WILD. though i doubt im gonna succeed with WILD as

a) I’m a total n00b and have never tried controlling my dreams
b) whenever i try WILD i keep worrying about these sounds and images that will appear

You’re probably no more crazy than the rest of us… :twirl: I’ve gotten voices and music too, as well as the occasional vivid image. Also the feeling of suddenly falling. Lots of stuff can happen, but I think a lot of it depends on the particular technique you use and where you’re thoughts are focus’d. For example, a few nights ago I tried singing a repetitive song over and over and over again in my head while I went to sleep - only to be interrupted every now and then by people talking.

I agree. WBTB + MILD = :unk: beginners. At the same time, though - I think WILD is getting easier and easier for beginners to do. When I first started with Monroe’s OBE techniques, I could almost do it. And I spent years almost doing it. Then I got on the internet one day, read a post that told me exactly what I was doing wrong, and now I’m able to actually do it.

I also understand what you’re saying about the word “hypnagogic” meaning “threshold of sleep”. I just think the range of tinnitus - going from soft while awake, to loud when relaxed, to deafening when vibrational… Is similar to the range of imagery experienced - going from faint patterns while awake, to floating images when relaxed, to full scenes when dreaming.

Tinnitus is hard to spell too. :tongue:

Completely normal. It’s auditory HH.

Lucid dreams are possible in NREM sleep. By the way, about what you said concerning brain weak activity, that’s right. So these LD’s have only been measured in light sleep (sleep phases 1 and 2). Charles Tart measured two LD’ers including Robert Monroe in phase 1 and 2. And I’ve seen recently another scientific report about NREM LD’s with more LD’ers.

I agree with you on this point. By the way, I made once two drawings of such forms. Is it what you talk about?
Basilus’ hypnagogic world
But I completely understand don and I would have said the same thing than him. When talking to beginners (aren’t we in the First Steps? :tongue: ), it’s better to distinguish between simple phosphenes - or elaborated phosphenes - and HI. Cause if they believe that when they see some dots, they see hypnagogic imagery hence they are in the hypnagogic stage, they are ready for further big disappointments.

I think we agree then… But have different definitions on the proper wording :smile:

And no, i dont think i had any HI that looks like that… For me it usually start forming to some b&w outline of a object or a scene, kinda similar to this drawing: https://www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~psyc54/images/laursen/OutlineHorse15cm.jpg
This then either fades away again or turn into a completely vivid picture or scene.

I would aggree here. I was trying to say that HI is more then just random noise in the visual cortex. It must be more complex, or it would be better to say that it must be coming from the mind insted of the eyes. If it is just noise comming from the eyes, then it is not HI. If it is something like star trek’s FTL travel with the stars whizzing past, then it is probably HI, then I don’t think that that could come from the eyes. If it is just random flashes of light, then I would say that it is probably just noise from the eyes.
don

Phosphenes don’t just come from the eyes. As you said, it’s random noise in the brain along the visual information path.

ive done the exact same thing before, but i was in SP cause i was trying to have an OBE but i just wasnt quite there, and it was the most unconfortable thing ever, everytime i thought about breathing i couldt breath right i felt like a rock and i had and itchy thigh and couldnt scratch it and i could hear voices and stuff as if i was about to start dreaming.