It’s just a theory,but does anyone think that
there is a chance that
the ability to lucid dream is a mutation?
Possibly the next step in human evolution? Maybe even something
unhealthy,that the mind knows is unhealthy? For as long as I’ve been lucid dreaming,(since childhood)there has always been some force or mechanism to prevent
me from becoming lucid or staying lucid.I guess you can say there has
always been trickery.False awakens,etc.Are we not meant to be lucid?
If we are meant to be lucid,why the struggle? If we are not meant,why do
we have them? How long has humanity experienced them?And why not everyone?
Opinions?
Hello Raefforedaerps,
I am really happy when someone that registered a while ago becomes active.
The name of the topic is really funny.
Lemme point first that it’s still hypothesis, not a theory, because we have no means to validate that to become a theory.
Secondly, we often make that joke on LD4all chat channel.
I think dreams are not originally meant to be lucid, but it doesn’t mean they cannot be natural.
However, this topic could lead to unexpected (perhaps unwanted) discussion.
So moderation team should be aware about how this could turn up. My apologies in advance.
Because, if it’s a mutation, there are several intepretations to that (not always mutually exclusive):
- If someone has LDs after learning to use techniques, that person has the mutant gene, which means someone who doesn’t, won’t ever succeed;
- If someone has them naturally, this could mean that person has the mutant gene, but achieving with techniques doesn’t need that.
- There could be gene variations;
- There could be more than one type of gene that causes similar phenotype;
- The mutant gene could be more common to a specific region because of breeding/race/geography;
- The mutant gene could provide a broader phenotype: that is, more than one trait than just LDing, possibly even something visible. Also, LDing could be simply a secondary phenotype to that gene;
- AFAIK, mutant genes are usually recessive, therefore parents that both have the phenotype are highly likely to have children who show the same phenotype;
- AFAIK, mutant genes are usually recessive, and recessive traits might become more and more rare as the population mixes up. If you claim it could be “Possibly the next step in human evolution”, then it would require some external factor that causes the selection, that is, would these people be more likely to reproduce and/or survive? And why?
- Possibly many more…
There are traits that are not necessarily useful.
Example: we have redundant organs. Some people have genetic diseases/malformation. These could be recessive traits, so that means anyone could be healthy while carrying a single allele and then is “unlucky” to have unhealthy children.
Some studies suggest that there is a large portion of our genetic code that is not used at all, that could point that not everything is necessarily useful.
But if you are searching for a way to take advantage of LDs, you should browse Lucid Adventures.
Maybe it’s not LDing itself that is hard, I always claim that it’s more about lacking awareness and recall. It’s natural to lose awareness while falling asleep. It could be just how it works. I mean, it does not have to be a constant fight that your subconscious is always trying to trick you.
I have had LDs before knowing more LDers and I am pretty sure that there are “contagious thoughts” about it. Some people have experiences and describe them, which could indirectly incubate other people to believe them and then it happens to them as well.
For instance, during the Inception hype, there was a trend of discussion about dream characters (DC) that could become aggressive in groups just like it happens in the movie. While many people could relate, that is not the way it would happen in my dreams.
Some could suggest that there are old texts that could be lucid dreaming.
An example has been recently brought up again.
Most people appear to be different but I cannot validate whether a person is really unable to. I have seen reports that there are people who cannot dream at all. Here in LD4all we are recommended to be positive that anyone could in fact LD.
I think there are cultural factors that affect it more than genes. Except for natural LDers maybe, but there are still environmental factors. The point is, many people I know think this is simply stupid, madness or that we just use it for silly practices.
Thanks for reading. 
“I think there are cultural factors that affect it more than genes. Except for natural LDers maybe, but there are still environmental factors.”
Yeah, this rings true. Culturally, it’s just not something that’s emphasized in modern man’s social experience. Maybe an inadvertent manifestation of the age of reason? IDK. Thus, given the lack of social momentum…of emphasis, the struggle. Because, in our daily awareness, there’s no impetus to recall dreaming. The tendency, upon awakening, is to start thinking about things in terms of what’s important IRL…day-to-day stuff that we get preoccupied with. Dreams aren’t generally considered relevant, in that context.
What I’ve noticed, in my limited experience, is that most people are uncomfortable talking about dreams. There’s almost an ambient embarrassment when it’s discussed. Not everyone, ofc, but more often than not. It’s always a pleasant surprise to stumble upon an acquaintance that’s interested in dreaming.
Raefforedaerps, some of that “wrong-ness” or “unhealthy-ness” you refer to may have something to do with that discomfort or embarrassment I think I’m feeling from others when dreaming is talked about.
Wow,very interesting replies,awesome!
I understand your concerns about unwanted discussion and I certainly
would not want anyone to feel that they had little or no chance of ever having an
LD or that I or anyone of us are somehow special.Plus, I don’t want to be taken away
and experimented on(unless it’s Famke Janssen doing the poking and prodding!)
The reason
I mention unhealthy is because of my own personal experience with LDs.
I can stay(or used to stay) quite a long time in the lucid state,
I’ve seem to have lost the ability as I’ve gotten older,sadly,but I can
remember always waking up more refreshed on days when I didn’t have a lucid dream
vs days when I had one or more.And anytime I had a very long lucid dream I would feel completely wiped out that day,with symptoms of brain fog.(I’m having serious
Déjà vu right now,I’m wondering if I started or replied to a similar topic as SOF eleven years ago?)The force I mention being a defense mechanism to ensure proper sleep.The mind is known to have such mechanisms according to psychologists.
I see what you’re saying. You could be right. Could be that very skillful LDers can sustain lucidity for long periods of time and draw out the length of dreams, extending REM sleep longer than it should be extended, thus interfering with deeper stages of sleep. I can see where that might make one tired!
Yes,exactly!
The mechanism may also be a way to prevent
neurosis or psychosis.Let me explain-
I’m going to start getting personal for a moment to make a point,so bare with me…
About sixteen years ago I lost someone very close to me to cancer.
I was devastated,totally depressed and at the point of breakdown.For two years
I was in a dark pit and I lost interest in life,and all I did was work and sleep.During that time I had a very hard time achieving lucidity,I mean false awakening after false awakening,and I had dreams where I would become lucid and see my familiar dream body,and then that body would become non existent,I would just be floating consciousness,a pair of eyes if you will,but I would still remain lucid,much like how some describe Astral Travel.
I had no control over theses dreams except for the ability to wake myself up,I just floated around through different landscapes and observed different dream characters and stories.
During those two years I did not make any effort to record any of my dreams.The two years past and my grieving and depression lessened and life went on.Lucid dreaming also became easier or what I would consider back to normal for me.So one day I’m in the park thinking about this person that died and a memory came to mind,but I wasn’t sure if it was real or not.
I could remember feeding the ducks with this person but it was unlikely.It was strange.More memories came flooding in and it was like I discovered a hidden two years of life lived with this person.I then realized they were all dreams.I deduced that the dreams of this person were vital to my psyche and healing and this dream person acted as a necessary surrogate.
I believe some non-lucid dreams are meant to resolve issues and the mind tricks us when we are lucid for this,and also to ensure restorative sleep.I think the last thing our mind wants is for us to be lucid.Or even more likely,maybe I have no idea what I’m talking about!
Though I have personally never experienced a dream character tell me that I was dreaming.
Has anyone ever experienced this?
More opinions please!!!
(I love and missed this forum.)
Sorry for your loss Raefforedaerps.
I have experienced loss too. Four years ago a friend fell to his death at the age of 20. It was the first time I had to deal with losing someone. He then started appearing in my dreams. I would go to him and tell him that: “You are dead. This has to be a dream.” He denied it. He told me that either he didn’t fall, or the fall didn’t kill him. In one of these dreams I had to perform eight reality checks that all failed and indicated that I was dreaming. My mind ignored the first seven until seeing a warped clock on the wall finally made me lucid. I then experienced fear like I had never felt before. It forced me to wake up, even though I wanted to stay.
A few years after that my grandpa died and I started seeing him more in my dreams. Those dreams were never filled with fear or denial. I had learned from those previous dreams and didn’t even bring up his death when we met in a dream. He always made me lucid. I didn’t even need a RC.
And I’ve had dream characters that want me to become lucid. One of my first lucid dreams after actively starting to perform RCs was thanks to a DC. The guy shoved his hand really close to my face and yelled “You know what this means!”. I became lucid, but I was also startled and woke up. Later I met characters that helped me in the dream and hinted that I was missing something. Some of these led to lucidity thanks to what they said.
Just wanted to add my dream characters to this discussion, since it seemed relevant.
Wow, potent story. Thanks for sharing that 
I’ve never lost someone near and dear to me other than our cat when I was 13 yrs old, who had been a part of the family since I was born. The grief then was extremely intense and crushing. I don’t remember the event effecting my dreams, though…although I was never a strong dreamer as a child and teenager. I was never “a natural”. It took me a year of sustained effort to have my first LD, once I even learned what they were. I didn’t even know what one was until I was about 25…and, even then, it took me years to stabilize my life enough to ever have the inner wherewithal to even start trying to LD.
But, now that I have them somewhat consistently…yes, I’m sure that another deep loss in my life would effect my dreaming dramatically. I’m not sure how, but I know things would be disrupted And, honestly, I know that that loss is coming inevitably…unless I die before anyone else truly close to me. There’s no way around…probably no way to really prepare, IDK.
Again, thanks.
Re the DC’s telling me I’m dreaming, come to think of it, no…I don’t think it’s happened. LOL…there’s been plenty of times when I try to tell them “We’re dreaming!” With disappointing results almost categorically. It seems my lucidity can’t quite shake the distinct impression that they’re real on some level .
Oh! I forgot to mention that in one lucid dream I met a girl that seemed lost. I told her that we were in a lucid dream and I taught her to fly. Full dream here.
Loosely relevant, but since she didn’t try to sabotage my lucid dream or anything, I think it’s good to mention.
" Later I met characters that helped me in the dream and hinted that I was missing something. Some of these led to lucidity thanks to what they said."
Ah! I just remembered something similar, a few years ago in which something a DC said helped to engender lucidity. Thanks, for the jolt!
I remember being on a road trip with 3 women who, in the dream, I considered mentors. When driving through the mountains, we stopped for a break and to check out the scenery. I wasn’t lucid at the time, but began talking about lucidity and awareness in general…without any clue that I was actually dreaming at the time. One of the women near me turned and looked at me with this beaming intensity in her eyes and said, “Well, actually…you’re really not lucid or aware right now, are you” I initially got a little defensive and said, “Well, I’m more aware than I was 5 years ago” Somehow, this was enough to tip the scales and I became lucid. IN that moment, the whole dream collapsed into this dark void where I remained suspended, and I watched as these embers of golden light come down out of the blackness and, one by one, sank into my chest. They seemed to represent a particularly delightful quality of awareness…of lucidity. It was a nice moment
Very cool dream 
Doubly cool in that it reminds me of an LD I had couple weeks ago with my daughter, who just turned 10. In the dream we were both lucid. I wanted to teach her how to fly and was about to put a brightly colored sticker on her shoulder which, I hoped, would act kind of like Dumbo’s magic feather and help her to fly. Turns out she didn’t need it LOL. She immediately started flying back and forth on this floating skateboard that appeared under her, like she’d been LD’ing for years. 