GreenDragon, I completely agree. I’ve been watching this thread since it started and all I see is one side saying that it’s possible and the other, the opposite. Also, as you said, there is no true evidence for or against OBE’s. Research into the brain is still in a very early stage. It is one of the most mysterious things in the universe that we know of. Until we do more research and have scientific evidence of OBE’s being real or the contrary, there is no real point in arguing.
More to the point now that I’ve scraped through my bookmarks:
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“The theory also states that out-of-body experiences, accompanied by NDEs, are an attempt by the brain to create a mental overview of the situation and the surrounding world. The brain then transforms the input from sensory organs and stored experience (knowledge) into a dream-like idea about oneself and the surrounding area. This, in turn, depends on a subconscious function of the sensory organs, rather than a total sensory loss.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience
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“Even renowned physicist Richard Feynman described having hallucinations and out-of-body experiences while using sensory deprivation chambers.”
“Reports of a heightened sense of introspection and out-of-body experiences by tank users mirror those of people with extensive experience in meditation, and both practices have been linked to decreased alpha waves and increased theta waves in the brain — patterns most typically found in sleeping states.”
io9.com/5829343/everything-you-e … ensory-dep rivation-tanks
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TEMPOPARIETAL JUNCTION
“This area is known to play a crucial role in self-other distinction processes and theory of mind (TOM)[1] and damage to this area has been implicated in producing out-of-body experiences (OBEs)”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporoparietal_junction
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“The first clinical study of near-death experiences (NDEs) in cardiac arrest patients was by Pim van Lommel, a cardiologist from the Netherlands, and his team (The Lancet, 2001).[17] Of 344 patients who were successfully resuscitated after suffering cardiac arrest, approximately 18% experienced “classic” NDEs, which included out-of-body experiences. The patients remembered details of their conditions during their cardiac arrest despite being clinically dead with flatlined brain stem activity. Van Lommel concluded that his findings supported the theory that consciousness continued despite lack of neuronal activity in the brain. Van Lommel conjectured that continuity of consciousness may be achievable if the brain acted as a receiver for the information generated by memories and consciousness, which existed independently of the brain, just as radio, television and internet information existed independently of the instruments that received it.[16]”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death … el_studies
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and there is actually more to that and more precise that I can’t find ATM.
You have misunderstood me, I do not offer absolute evidence to others (I have brought absolute evidence to myself), what I do is showing the way for everyone to get his evidence for themselves, on various levels, I’ve also very much described how to do an OBE, almost everytime I sleep facing upwards, from now on, an OBE or almost an OBE is triggered, my body and mind have learnt the process on themselves, I have the intelligence of it now and it happens on by itself. That is definetely valuable evidence, I don’t care who uses it and who doesn’t. What I disprove is Paulius’ disproval, and that yes, I do on an 100% scale and assert always that I can only be towards others 50%. And yes Paulius is 100% wrong when saying that when the person is ( in the relative term we use even) clinically dead no OBE and/or NDE is possible, that can go hand by hand ( I have more experiments on this to link but cannot find them ATM). Check my last reference which is the Van Lommel studies, on my previous message.
So in effect what’s the difference? The difference between guessing ( you can experiment on that) everytime what is written correctly and seeing it with on your own eyes in a very detailed manner, or remote viewing happenings in “real life” correctly if it’s prove so ofc? What is the pragmatical, essential difference to it? If your life is a hallucination would it stop being your life? I don’t think the possibilities anyway on what you said are significantly big, we can find numerous ways to examine reality but we have to conclude somwhere as we all agree, and that continuous research, empirical or else. I do not tell you to trust me, I tell you what to do for yourself. And atop of that ofc what you described with the note, which was improbable to “guess”, it was a random incomprehensible word ( “bothes”, that as my brother says formed out of 2 youtube thumbnails one atop the other, the top one reading “doors” and the bottom one “blues brothers” and he connect them even with half letters to half letters and formed a new word out of it, it also happens to mean “corpses” as can be see through some old texts, 
, take that as only trivial and for fun) you have to go back and see what the experiment was, I posted that in detail numerous times, why doesn’t someone else that can OBE here experiment on himself with close to him items, you can safely do a similar experiment if you OBE frequently.
reminder: I do not assert the value or reason of the existence of OBEs, I assert that whatever these phenomena are almost 100% exist, either as full scale replication of reality and correct continuation of it ( including hallucinations) differing from LD FAs. To be 100% I must go to an even more remote place and see what is happening there and if it is faithful to reality. I must be in danger now 
I don’t think I have misunderstood you, my point still stands. We can try to explore things for ourselves, but that sort of exploration is not scientific and is prone to errors. Especially errors in methodology. It can’t be considered scientific. I’m not saying this exploration is invalid, just that it isn’t scientific. Scientific studies are subject to peer review for a start, which filters out a lot of things that are missed with personal exploration.
You no doubt already understand where the scientifically minded seem to me to get lost, believing that everything has to be logical and have a rational explanation. The simple response which highlights the flaw in that perspective being, “show me evidence that the world is entirely logical and can be explained entirely by the means you dictate.” This here is where from my perspective many spiritually oriented people seem to get lost. Personal exploration isn’t scientific, and it’s not unreasonable for those who are scientific to choose not to accept it. I’d personally argue with them until they acknowledged they are choosing to believe / use a model which can’t be assumed to be perfect, but that’s inconsequential. The model they use has proven its usefulness a thousand times over in allowing us to manipulate the world around us. It’s just that we have to acknowledge the possibility that it may have its limits. Especially with some of the things Quantum mechanics is seeming to tell us.
Incidentally I’m not sure I even believe in absolute evidence, but that’s an entirely different matter.
I don’t understand this.
I agree completely and, again, I assert that I do not assert absolute “viewpoints” or scientific evidence. Read my previous message as a whole. I show the way to scientific ( even if as you say never surely “absolute” on itself) evidence that someone can get for himself, and oh yes, by that POV I can assert safely OBEs exist, this thread asks for opinions by definitions, it is a discussion, I am not the only part of the discussion, do you see what I am saying? If this that happens to me continuously now is not an OBE is relevant scientific terms what is it then? What else can it be? Do you see my first message where I doubted it exists aswell, go and see the exactly next one from it.
haha, just don’t mind it, it isn’t refering to anyone here.
Yes, you assert you describe a method to find evidence for yourself. What I think you don’t see is that you are assuming that everyone uses the same standards to define what is real, or convincing evidential experience as you do, and that they will draw the same conclusions as you from the experiences. That is in my opinion an error and where you and Paulius disagree. Some won’t accept an explanation which doesn’t fit in the scientific domain. They would prefer to say they do not know what has happened, or extrapolate current theories than they would accept a suggestion which has no basis in the scientific domain. That’s not a faulty belief either, the scientific domain has proven its usefulness, its not unreasonable to use it in this way.
I would say it’s also an error to say if it doesn’t fit the scientific domain it’s wrong or false. Since that makes the unscientific assumption that current theories are true, full or immutable, which they aren’t.
I would agree with your results if the basis of your thinking on that, unknowingly it is not, was correct aswell. Appart from all that that you describe, which is true, but not on itself only, someone would need to OBE himself, then that is absolute proof, it’s like telling me LDs are not evident for the reasons you posted. I have explained why OBEs differ from lucid dreams, there is no SINGLE doubt on me on that scientific level we are ( there is no need to further discuss on this because we must conclude somewhere), you have to not have a SINGLE doubt by yourself. I know what I am seeing, I know that I know what I am seeing, because I described in 15 steps ( and does the first message point to a person that believed at first OBEs are possible? also they weren’t defined correctly aswell from the start), that are the SAME aswell as written everywhere mostly, how they differ from LDs. When you have an OBE will you still doubt it, is it even possible to doubt experience, experience is by definition like that. You can disagree on the definition of OBE if you’d like however. Try to prove you had many LDs to a person that hasn’t had one yet and see that it is in it’s very structures the very same argument, or why is it different?
note: the method is pragmatical and not theoretic, you must have meant another type of method as in thinking/examining method.
no, in fact go several comments back and see the 4 falling asleep states, they have been described scientifically aswell, mostly though the last 2, the before REM sleep state, the hallucinatory-hypnagogic state and the hypnagogic jerk after that.
This is where I think you are mistaken. To throw up an example; there have been reports by multiple people of god / spiritual experiences. I’m not about to debate if there is a god or not, it’s immaterial. My point is many people use this experience as “undeniable proof of their particular flavour of belief.” Be it Christianity, Islam, Some pagan style or new age belief structure, etc etc. Hell, I’ve even experienced something like this and for all intents and purposes I’m an Atheist as I don’t require a god for any of my models of reality to work. They can’t all be right that the experience is absolute proof of their beliefs, since those beliefs conflict. This is an illustration of why what you said in what I quoted, can’t be right. It’s why anecdotal evidence is not absolute evidence. It’s the reason that it is entirely rational and logical to assert that experiences like that do not prove anything, which is where Paulius is coming from from what I understand. It’s still a choice to accept this idea, and one which it’s not unreasonable to make a choice other than the one you, or indeed I, have made to accept it as possible. We can’t always trust our senses or immediate experiences, anymore than the results of an experiment and for the same reasons. We are modelling reality, and trying to describe it, we have no guarantee at all that our model is even capable of describing reality adequately. Incidentally science offers no absolute proofs either, I believe those who assert it does do not understand it.
“Incidentally science offers no absolute proofs either, I believe those who assert it does do not understand it.”
To many people just think science is trying to dictate areas of thought and belief. Even a lot of smart people with in scientific communities 
so sad and so wrong.
I totally disagree, and that from a neutral standpoint, as logic must be by definition neutral and is so, otherwise some would use logic in a faulty way, there is no inbetween. I do not define myself through disproving others beliefs/wishes, and Paulius shouldn’t do the same, he should conclude 50% on what OBEs are and if they exist, simply because he hasn’t experienced OBE. I can be the same towards others, however from the overview that is given if you do a personal research, an overview I didn’t possess before I started searching myself it is highly propable, only from that, that OBEs do exist. How they are formed exactly and what is their significance hasn’t been fully asserted, I have linked tons of information of scientific experimental nature, sensory deprivation chambers, electromagnetic stimulation in the tempoparietal lobes, from cardiologists, even you know what else ( heh, see the PM), and so on and that combined. Yes I am absolute in that, and why shouldn’t I be, from a neutral standpoint, aren’t you absolute in the existence of LDs, why not apply the same criteria because OBEs sound more curious? Be it a full scale hallucination it would change nothing, there is no way actually for a brain to reproduce the reality of what is going on around the person with full scale reality, with such if it was just fantasy, see this for example:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds%27_NDE
It is about an NDE, that started with an OBE.
Also more trivially it is interesting to see a previous message of mine, I don’t tell you to accept it as information, but I pinpoint the way of how my thinking was before and how is it now:
"I am not sure if OBEs as commonly described are real. I am convinced that the majority of those that describe an OBE are just lucid dreamers that had one or more dreams that started from where they slept. Also most possibly it could have been among the first times to LD for them and that’s where the confusion stems from. I have heard of an OBE that someone had when she was clinically dead or in a coma ( as far as I remember possibly the first ), she described what was going on in the operation she had in full detail, and this is not an exaggeration by someone, I don’t buy into metaphysical things so I know. I believe she was although in a numb state very much awake in a dream inside her head that replicated what was going around through combining sounds, dialogues, sightings etc etc what to say can’t find another explanation
"
OK, if our senses “fool” us with reality then what is the difference. What is the pragmatic difference, this is more of a philosophical nature. In the same way you can’t trust that you just typed this.
Actually strange as it might sound, they do not conflict at all, sure religious books have been “polluted” by human thought, but the “basis” and many teachings of all religions ( actually not everything is religion, just philosophical teachings from various places of the world, seperate from that dogmatic structures) all around is that, look it for yourself throughout, I assert my opinion as I am entitled do, they’re formed out of NDEs and OBEs of various natures. Read what I have said before on the 6th corrolary of logic, that our world seems to be based on see also the corrolary article of wiki I have linked and so on. What you posted at any rate however does not disprove my way of thinking about OBEs and so on, disproving other’s disprovals isn’t proof on itself.
Neither you or paulius will be able to prove to existence or non-existence of obes to yur self or to any one else. There is no such thing as direct proof and it is an invalid assumption to look for answers under the pretense that there is direct proof. You have been convinced that obes exist and paulius is convinced that they do not exist. Assuming one of you could directly prove your point of view it would mean one of you is wrong. You feel right, yet at least one of you is wrong. So understand that just cause you think yur right, or just cause you feel a way or have experienced something, does not mean you are right.
In all honesty the existence of the obe phenomenon (cause people obviously experience something that leads them to label it obe) seems to me to jsut be when our mind quasi accruately models what we percieve as waking reality from a vantage point other than your physical one. Just what I’ve gathered though I can’t look everywhere 
Thus you imply it exists, simple as that. And that because it doesn’t quasi accurately models what we perceive as waking reality, but completely. OK before I didn’t know what OBEs were so I doubted, because I haven’t seen them down described completely, but now that I have and combined both logic and experiment, when logic alone would be enough, you have direct experimental proof ( also I can’t link all, the most important ones I hesitate due to content that is forbidden by forum rules), go back several comments, it is there with their links and all, or otherwise they are all collectively lying in each experiment and as a whole. What proof would you accept as convincing? OK, since we can’t taste/smell/touch/hear/see the theory of relativity is it an invalid scientific theory, totally disregard my personal experience, all the other ones I have linked numerous times in all the discussion, with all their explanations on every level ( mind, physical) or else are not enough and why, what do they miss? Then LDs do not exist aswell as I can see.
Don’t trust my evidence, but you wouldn’t that way trust any evidence brought forward, see for instance the Pam Reynolds example and decide, I wonder if many here have even taken the time to see what I have posted. Now what seperates OBEs from Lucid Dreams ( also OBE experiencers could have been more clear) :
- The gradual paralysis of all body parts, the head last
- The hallucinatory state when you are still in touch with your surroundings ( even with open eyes)
- The exploding head syndrome ( can be minimized)
- The vibrations of all your body ( can be minimized)
- The autoscopy
- The fact that you feel that you can mentally move different parts of your “non-physical” body and see still your physical body lying down, you can also see if you fantasize so the apparition of your hand, for instance, that you are moving at the time
- The hallucinatory state that begins after the 6th phase of OBE, and the fact that it’s almost always something scary and when you get back to your physical body (“awake”) nothing of that is true! For instance 2 wasps entering the room trying to sting you, kids playing down the road and one girl shouting that “your a coward (!)” and “can’t wake up”, then throwing you a multicolored object that flashes in the same time as time-set explosives’s beeping can be heard , you instantly perceive that it’s about to explode, the curtain in the corner of your eye being turned to an entity that you are afraid won’t let you move again if it reaches you
8.) The fact that the transition between the being-physically-awaken and astrally awakened state is smooth with no interruption and it can be felt - The fact that you awake astrally exactly where you slept
- The absolute clarity of your surroundings and the fact that you can check around and every single thing is in it’s place fully detailed, the lightning, time of day and all.
- The absolutely clear memory you have of when it begins and when it ends ( doesn’t turn into a dream, or can it also?)
- The fact that many events and settings, such as the wind, moving of curtains and all are very faithful to reality, hallucinations can exist at the same time
- The fact that you are very heavy and paralysed in your non-physical body, which BTW feels the same with your physical body
- The fact that you can do nothing to items and they too seem to have a non-physical self or maybe 2nd physical self, for instance personally I can’t take the blanket off me, I can feel it and pull it but I pull it infinitely and it’s image doesn’t change position
- The fact that you always get stuck back in your body, either because of feeling heavy or out of fear, also it seems that you don’t wake up and feel heavy like I do after some lucid dreams.
This is in fact the “official” description aswell, of how they form, how they happen, how they are maintained, check on wiki aswell. OK, if an LD for instance is not an LD what is it then I would like to know? I can’t “prove” to others LD, since most as you must have experienced fake on accepting axioms, that otherwise they use in their everyday logic, thus LD is not provable by the very same exact criteria or where is the difference at any level? Why LDs have been accepted as scientifically established and OBEs not? (read wiki on LDs and see)
Why do you change what I say? It’s mean. And the obe phenomenon does exist, just as much as dreams do, they may even be the same thing. Thats why I said it and that’s why it’s called an experience. The model is the perception. BUT it is not complete. The model only quasi accurately represents what reality might be. There is no absolutness, you cannot say with certainty that the model is complete, you cannot know absolutely. You could be fooled just like you are in many normal dreams.
And I do not imply they exist as I do not know whether they do or not. There is no proof. I simple said the premis that it SEEMS as if obes happen in the head. It’s an unproven premis so I won’t dare imply/assert that they do exist. It just seems like they do exist as a dream like experience in the head.
I feel like all I’ve done is reiterate what I’ve already said concerning my MUSINGS AND IDEAS about obes. Because in the end everything in everyone’s life; be it the experience of driving a car, to having a lucid dream, to being “out of body”, to having sex, to plain only thought and existence itself, is nothing more than an idea.
I didn’t change what you said at any rate, I don’t do such things, I just assert my viewpoint.
It is exactly the same, has been described officialy aswell so, as having woken up. Look at the 15 points, it is the very same as having woken up, LDs can be inferior to that, and this is an LD forum so people know, haven’t you had an LD ever that you had memory of the clear memory inside it, (see the experiments and the links can PM aswell some rest I guess I won’t be able to post here) now take that as a full scale replication of your surroundings and happenings ( also items that you haven’t seen before, don’t take that last one as fact if you wish so) , my OBEs are always 100% lucid, clear, stable, do not faint, have the smooth transition and all the rest of my points, this is not by definition an LD or FA.
So does it exist or not?
note: BTW sorry Im off to gym for now, might continue that later.
Dude I’m not trying to argue or debate I was just sharing ideas. I have had lucid experiences where memory and cognition are as sharp as irl and it feels as if the experience is in real time. I’ve also had a few occasional obes. I have the experience. All I’m saying is any one who uses experience as proof, is just falling back on the assumption that their experiences are true. This is begging the question and having assumed all that logic you spoke of, this is a logical fallacy. Should I still give your points consideration? why yes because I am interested
Though I feel that you are not presenting me with anything more than essentially "I experiences A, there for A is true. Again begging the question.
And to answer your question, the phenomenon or experience does exist. But what it actually is no one can completely say. Some say it’s open to interpretation, If you believe in that sort of thing. And even the experience itself cannot be proven to exist or not exist at a definative level. Philosophically the greatest wisdom lies in understanding that you cannot definitively know anything, you always fall back on an unproven premis. Sorry if I get a little smart assy. Not trying to be mean.
Wrong, it is you.
Wrong, it is you, since you are claiming that OBE’s exist.
Yours are. All of them. You don’t give any specific brain research articles. You are just like: “Well, it might exist, because of bla bla bla and you should not deny it.” etc. I will not get into philosophical discussions, since I’m not a philosopher and I am not qualified for such stuff.
There you go. You got everything upside-down again.
Oh yeah? Are you sure?
Philosophical assertions, not based on neuroscience at all.
How were you disproven? By that bullshit “proof” you just gave me?
Cause there are no reasons for it to be higher.
These is precisely what I am trying to explain, and I have done in as much detail as possible, I have repeated this thing incalculable times, if I had to quote myself on this a whole page would be filled. I have also linked MANY scientific researches, and others I hesitate to do so, they are more precise, but I hesitate due to forum rules, can PM though both you and Paulius if he ever intends to read what I link.
Paulius you want me to explain in detail every detail, no I can’t serve you everything as a dish, and you want me to place “OBE” as an item in your hands to be convinced. And no, philosopher in my language means “he who befriends wisdom” ( from philos=friend and sophia=wisdom), you cannot dismiss and type of wisdom/knowledge, science on itself is “philosophy”, you are not skeptical you are dogmatic, it is you that shall explain your way of thinking, you just say that you can approve of the existence of anything that you can see/touch/taste etc whereas you dismiss scientists as a whole. Yet OBEs have all these feelings and they have been explained under strict medical monitoring such as the Pam Reynolds case you didn’t even read. Or otherwise all these base their works on nothing and so then everyone inside the experiment or outside for some reason has decided to lie and all these combinations of people as a whole. I have shown, neurosurgeons, cardiologists, dr*g specialists ( look well in NDE article, I am not allowed to link, and it’s not the only case), physicists, are all these crazy and somehow you have proven that OBEs can’t exist, why are you here then if you believe you cannot be shown at any probability and type of conclusive evidence is the question? Is philosophy of science ( see the respective wiki article) dismissed aswell. And yes I have given my proof down to you, you just didn’t read it. And even if I am wrong you haven’t proven at any rate how OBEs/NDEs can’t exist, now show me the evidence, you made such an assertation, not me.
Well, please watch the video, I gave the youtube link of the scientific series: Through The Wormhole which are not based on some self called scientists…