I hope so too! 
Thanks again!
Have fun with your birthday!
Maybe not for you, but it was needed for me and this discussion. We presented a list of concerns about DV, and in return we got no answers until Nightowl arrived. We would still be accusing DV of actively removing references to LD4all if someone from their Mod team didn’t speak up. Thanks nightowl and others. This is the start of a foundation of trust.
I couldn’t have trusted them if they hadn’t answered my concern about deleting references to LD4all.
Technodreamer, don’t ask me that question and then tell me to forget. 
I didn’t say he should apologize. Nightowl said he apologized when he didn’t, I was just being clear. I don’t think icedawg was initially interested in having a discussion here with us. Nor do I think he had intentions on helping clear this negative outbreak. I think he just wanted others to hear from the horses mouth that DV is a nice place to be instead of hearing different from others. Which it is, icedawg should be very proud and grateful for it’s many helpful members.
Oh I see. Yes, he certainly did help, didn’t he. 
It’s called being hypercritical 
err, sorry, i have this problem where i misunderstand people
I had briefly read over page 4 and i got the message that Icedawg PM’d Dm7 and said sorry for the “deleting incident” thing. I must’ve read it wrong. my bad.
Thanks, i just wanted to clear things up and hopefully answer your concerns. I didn’t really see anyone taking responsiblity for the “deleting incident” nor apologizing for it so on my behalf i apologize for what happened. I agree. trusting eachother starts here and hopefully no more misunderstandings will happen again(especially one like this that generated so much animosity between us)
To be honest with you guys, i had never heard of this “deleting incident” until now so this is news to me and i dont really know much about what happened. I just have one question though. did the mod delete or edit the Dm7’s post getting rid of the link or whatever. Also was the link that was censored in his Signature or in his post?
Nightowl, you are doing a great job, let nobody say something else, and i really appreciate you look into this with so much effort.
Mm Dm7 is now ofline, she cant be really long online everyday so we cant ask her right now.
The only thing i know from what she told me was that her post was edited, not erased and then the link was gone.
She will c your post tomorrow night and I ask here then to answer you!
Iam glad that you, like myself, choose for trust and being constructive.
Iam sure Dream Views is proud of ppl like Yourself and Seeker because those are the kind that make a forum a really good place to be a member at.
Thanks! 
nightowl, I really do want to quickly put this behind us … the mood is just awful, and sick, like I’m gonna make myself grow a tumor. or some stomach ulcer if I keep talking about it … but I know it needs answered, so I’ll try to summarize from my perspective:
Hargrat posted his HILD technique at DV including a link back to LD4all where his initial thread of the technique originates. It was recently discovered that link was disabled, “disabled URL”
So over the course of a few weeks, people have witnessed Hargrat’s URL go
from:
https://community.ld4all.com/t/hargarts-induction-technique-log-hild/10708
into:
ld4all /forum/viewtopic.php?t=7446
One witness was DM7 and she posted a reply questioning why LD4all’s link was disabled, and included a proper link.
After icedawg made his post here on LD4all he deleted her reply to HILD, the “edited URL” was “re-edited”, and icedawg sent her a simple PM apologizing because he deleted her post.
Many people thought this was unfair LD4all links were disabled at all, and worth mentioning. Some people felt there was some type of “LD4all boycott” after refusals to add LD4all to DVs “List of useful Links” Some mods there use “LD4all” in punchlines as insults against us, and some mods that visit here are hard to trust now because of past experiences with some stray flaming “guest” post in our test forum. It’s too draining to deal with the drama. DV is a great forum and should be confident enough to leave links to ld4all and still keep growing at their impressive rate.
As a long time online lucid dreamer and LD4all member I feel a slap in the face reading a paradigm of another LD site saying “We are not like other lucid dreaming sites … Rhetorically, we attempt to extricate lucid dreaming from the ensnaring darkness of ignorance.”
This is easily overlooked, but combined with how LD4all seems singled out against at DV we feel like an enemy … and we feel spoke out against on the front page … and we seem to get an unusual amount of “DV fans” coming here to insult us to our face.
I feel there is a silent promotion that instigates this and I’m only speaking out against it to make it stop. Not because “I don’t like dreamviews”</whiny voice> or wish they would change, but because it is affecting LD4all negatively and causing an unnecessary disruption.
We are kind and friendly people, and we do stand up for ourselves and what we believe in. I think it’s in our best interest to promote appreciation rather than resentment. right? 
I have created a topic hoping I will get posotive replies.
dreamviews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6998
If a mod dares cencors this link…!
And it brought me here. Im a Dreamviews loyalist…I only joined dreamviews a little over two months ago and went from practically no LD’s to having them all the time. At least one every week and often more.
But this site seems alright. Just the topics are a bit to vague for me, but Ill check it out for a bit and see if I might learn soemthing.
I wasn’t collecting links to show hoe DV is bad; I didn’t try to find that DV is good. I just wanted to give it a cursory look, and pick out a few things that surprised me. I wasn’t intending to say that a 13-year old is “inferior” nor did I even mean that “at that age people should be worrying about their education/grades/having a good time!”
I simply thought it was very unusual, so I linked to it.
(I’m 14 myself, nearing 15)
EDIT: Another thing.
About the people coming over here and trolling about dreamviews: (1 (which was originally posted in Shortcuts))
OH MY GOD! I clearly remember two new threads in, I think, the lucid lounge. They were, I think, one asking why ld4all needed donations (specifically comparing to dreamviews which “doesn’t ask for a penny” (not verbatim)) and another asking something-or-other-can’t-remember. These threads got about 6 replies, with various levels of niceness, and then pasQuale posted saying that the question had been answered and the topic was now locked. (which it was) I personally thought that was an odd reason to lock a topic, because even after questions are answered the topic is usually left open. I took it no further.
Now the posts are gone!
Anyway, the point I was originally trying to make was that we (I at least) want freedom of speech, but we should also remember that people own sites, and they have the right to modify anything within it. We shouldn’t go to dreamviews mods complaining about their members; they have no control over them. We shouldn’t go to mods asking them to change their attitude in DV posts towards LD4all; what do you think their reply would be? We can just leave it alone, and not keep touting here: “LD4all moderators do not mangle links to dreamviews, unlike vice versa!” and “we want co-operation with dreamviews, unlike some members over at dreamviews!”.
On the other hand, if you want to, feel free to carry on. 
The 2nd thread you are thinking of was titled “Why are people so touchy around here?” They introduced themselves insulting how pasQuale spells her name, how she runs her forum, and then shared only praise for DV. Some people replied and told him he had a lot of nerve asking a question like that.
After talking with a moderator at DV, it was decided to remove these 2 topics, because they did not shine a good light on DV or LD4all.
I hope this is what we are working towards.
A collaboration to stop these people from attempting to “recruit” others to the other board, or any suppression attempted to make the other board look “less desirable.”
As we grow even larger, these things will happen. Like Gameover mentions, many people are loyalist. Both communities just want to continue on their intended path, and with the least interuptions. We need to talk and be open with each other, since it seems extreme loyalist want to disrupt our intended path about sharing our dreaming knowledge.
R3mOt i hoped you would do this for some time!
It puts all a bit in a better light at least, and explains your motivation.
Good news for all Dream Views members and Ld4all members.
I mailed Icedawg and I just talked to him in person at the chat at Dream Views and he said he to wants to solve this just like we all do and he will post here to make that so!
Thats great to hear, Thx Icedawg and welcome!
(iam of to dinner now, eating thais in Amsterdam)
Jeff
We’ve all done a lot of talking. Have we sufficiently removed all of the damaged tissue so that healing can now begin?
Happy B’Day Jeff! Are you also one of the oldest members here? I think I am the oldest active member at DV (43 years old)
The task before me is trying to say the least for I have to address all the concerns that are currently on the table but I must also do so in as non-provocative a way as possible, in the hopes of staving off these lingering negative feelings. I’m reminded of an oscilloscope when reading through this thread: each successive post seems either as a crest or a trough, and each crest purporting to indicate that this adversarial relationship is on its way to being resolved is almost immediately followed by a trough insisting that it is not.
Let’s begin with the most contentious of the issues: links to Ld4all disappearing from Dream Views’ forum. The sole responsibility of that act rests with me, and yes it was very much intentional. To help create somewhat of a background that might lead to some small, tepid understanding, you have to keep in mind that I’m a very competitive person, rather insolent a lot of the time, and notoriously a sore loser. So here’s the deal: Dream Views had enjoyed being above Ld4all in many of the various search strings used on Google that are variants (or related topics) of ‘lucid dreaming.’ I noticed a few months ago, however, that we had slipped a little in our ranking for various terms and Ld4all had transcended our position. Clearly, when one considers my aforementioned nature, you can conclude I wasn’t thrilled about that so I unfairly took steps to ensure that we were not contributing to Ld4all’s ranking. Obviously that’s a rather petty and selfish thing to do, so I humbly offer my apologies for that. To rectify the situation a link to Ld4all has been added to our only source of links, which is in our Tutorial section…the Tutorial section can be accessed by both the main site and the forum.
I’m certainly (?) proud of the fact, however, that Dream Views ranks higher than just about any other site out there for the search term “girls in miniskirts” (with or w/o quotes) on Google. 
heh…as a fluke we were number one for that search term for 3 or 4 months. I can’t tell you how surprised I was to find that in our logs. 
First, if we keep bringing up past issues this will never be resolved. Second, I really could have done without O’nus’s name being dragged through the mud; he’s a great guy and certainly didn’t deserve that. Having said that of course I have to immediately concede that clearly that was an honest mistake; I find myself rather disappointed, however, that one of my own mods would share information such as that. IP addresses are kept hidden from every day users for a reason; I would have thought all the mods on my site were responsible enough to realize that and wouldn’t share such information on essentially a whim. Look at what happened this time when that information was shared: the wrong person was blamed.
So who’s the right person? Well that was me. I’m a moody and impulsive guy, and if you catch me at the right moment I’m going to tell you exactly how I feel. Looking back I think I should have simply remained reticent in regards to how I felt about the padfoot situation–but that is the folly of impulsiveness. I stand by what I said, however, because I felt like we weren’t being taken seriously when we warned you guys about padfoot’s behaviour (and his presence being a violation of COPPA). Of course clearly I have to recognize that as is generally the case with forums, one cannot pin the blame on a forum or its members in general…it’s always individuals. Regardless, forging an amicable relationship involves a two way street… I was very pleased when pasQuale stepped in and rectified the situation regarding padfoot and COPPA.
There are about five common responses when one first learns about lucid dreaming (or at least, these are the ones I encounter whenever I try to introduce people to lucid dreaming): lucid dreaming is new-ageish or silly, lucid dreaming advocates escapism, lucid dreaming is evil or occult related, lucid dreaming is unnatural and robs one of that chance to glean messages from dreams, and finally of course there is the response we all hope for: excitement, awe, and wonder. Many people are outwardly opposed to what they associate with lucid dreaming, and often it seems that it is a fool’s errand to introduce individuals to lucid dreaming…sometimes it seems like it’s best to allow them to become curious about it on their own and then seek out answers, for then they are sure to be a little more open-minded.
I decided I wanted to create a place on the Internet that anyone and everyone could receive as a credible and serious resource for lucid dreaming, and that could in fact be used to successfully introduce people to lucid dreaming for the very first time (and that would strive to not associate lucid dreaming with many topics that some people find questionable, to ensure that everyone could at least relate to the sole embodiment of lucid dreaming). In all fairness some of the topics that some people feel are related to lucid dreaming are in my mind not related; I know lucid dreaming is real but a lot of what many enjoy relating to lucid dreaming I feel is extraneous. I suppose that’s simply because when I was first introduced to lucid dreaming that’s how I learnt about it…in a very practical and down-to-Earth sort of way. I believe lucid dreaming stands alone and everything else is separate.
I, backed by a bit of disdain for my own old site that used to I feel present unintentionally the same front that I now wanted to avoid (old site can be found here), decided to set out to accomplish packaging lucid dreaming in such a way that anyone, regardless of how pessimistic or secular he or she may be, could relate to and find at least something inherently enticing within. I wanted to create a place that was generally neutral on all fronts thus could possibly result in not alienating or excluding anyone.
Do I feel that that particular statement is too harsh? Yes. I’ve been meaning to rewrite the introductory page for a while now because quite frankly it’s a little too impersonal (I think I went at times a little too far with my crusade to remain practical and straight-forward). I still believe that many lucid dreaming sites are unintentionally creating a discernible stigma that accompanies lucid dreaming in many people’s minds. Some would think that perhaps these people who share that point of view shouldn’t benefit from realizing the true merits of lucid dreaming. I again don’t want to exclude anyone, but I certainly don’t want to have what some would construe as a negative message on my main site, so I’ll have to put thought into rewording my message. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
To be quite frank with you that’s not fair. I have been working very hard to change the front that Dream Views presents to new users, and the Dream Guide program is glaring evidence of that. You’re generalizing from a pool of a few users and attaching a negative connotation to my forum based on that. The Dream Guides have a whole page of guidelines that I compiled to ensure that new users are treated with respect, dignity, and properly welcomed. Once I’m done writing the chat program (which I’m very excited about and has been occupying just about all of my time because some admins out there want to use it on their forums so I have to ensure it’s quality work) I’ll be introducing guidelines for the forum members and whatnot to ensure that this sort of behaviour is clearly underscored as not being condoned by us.
As a precursor to that I’m about to say, consider these couple of paragraphs that I recently posted on Dream Views:
We have had some problems with users joining and posting a couple hundred messages within the span of a couple days–posts that consisted of little more than “neat,” or “cool.” While I certainly don’t want to discourage anyone from posting, other users and potential new users who would join will find those posts annoying and will generally see our forum as cumbersome to sift through. On the flip side of that of course is the unintentional aura that potential new users could pick up that would lead them into believing we don’t appreciate new users at all, which would be a direct result of the fact that new users would probably not be privy to the circumstances involving a few troublesome users. Thus resting neatly to my left is a rock, and obnoxiously calling attention to itself is the hard place to my right. In these particular cases I try to only PM users when requesting they change conduct or whatnot to ensure that outsiders don’t get the wrong idea (and I try to be as friendly as possible); outwardly attacking new users is not something we sanction. I would simply imagine that some of our users used past instances involving problematic users as a justification for outwardly reproving new users when it was possible that they may turn out to be akin to some of the problematic users we’ve had before. Clearly that’s not something we desire and we are striving to prevent that.
Alright, well, I’m hoping I’ve managed to address all the issues in regards to our beleaguered relationship. I want to extend an apology for everything that has happened, and to thank everyone who is actively striving to correct what has mostly gone wrong because of my own actions. Keep in mind that I’m probably not the best choice for an admin in the world…it’s just the way it happened; I’m a programmer and most of the time I spend on my forum is in the form of endlessly toiling away at its underlying infrastructure…I only seem to find time to participate in the Feedback and Announcements forums. I feel I’m extremely lucky to have the wonderful staff that I do, and they help me out a great deal in keeping things running smoothly, and their presense alone seems to help keep me in check and somewhat abate my impulsive and competitive nature. 
Everyone did a lot of hard work yesterday to resolve many of these issues. We cant change the past but, we can move forward form here. We have some key members form both sites contributing to this thread and opening the lines of communication.
Yesterday the members of dreamviews showed a lot of courage coming here to clear things up. They obviously care about this issue as much as we do as the truth of the matter is hey did not have to come here at all. I think with so many good people working together in friendship we can stop this negativity from ever rearing its evil head again.
Once again I would like to thank all the DV members who had the courage to come here and address our concerns.
Thank you
icedawg
I think you comment that my statement was unfair is completely untrue. You have more than one thread on your site where this is being discussed as a serious problem. I also believe you have a member who left because everyone kept ganging up on him/her Also, if you bothered to take the time to read the whole thread you will see that I also gave you credit for working to change that.
It seems you are burring old conflicts just to create new ones. 
Hi Seeker_dv
I have a tendency for long post in most of my threads, and I hope it doesn’t seem hostile or disapproving. I try to reply to each question directed towards me and present my best honest opinion. Sorry icedawg if this seems to be bringing up past issues.
There is no damaged tissue, but a rough trail being formed into a path. Friendships and bonds already exisit between us and it’s an amazingly honest thread with great intentions.
“girls in miniskirts” 
runs off to google 
icedawg, I totally agree with you about the “stigma” attached to lucid dreams. It really drives me crazy, and I was sharing in our chatroom about how it’s usually embarrassing to search for LD books because they are in the witchcraft section. Maybe I shouldn’t be that self conscious, but it’s hard to read the preface if I think people are staring at me. 
Last week I was sharing with my friend about lucid dreams, and he interupts me to say “oh, I had my palms read.” 
I was so disappointed. heh
The best of luck to you on your adventure towards changing this narrow perspective. 
Thank you very much icedawg for your honest reply.
I have kept my distance over these quarrels and also am very grateful for the LD4all and DV mods to open the lines of communication and clear things up.
I really feel the air has been cleared now
Thank you everybody on both DV and LD4all for your efforts and peacemaking skills.
I’m a person that will watch from behind a corner to see how things go, and only step in when i feel it is absolutely necessary. If it weren’t for Jeff and DM7 I would still hang in there and wait until the air had been cleared, maybe sulking a little because DV was not nice to me (I feel LD4all as part of me).
So thank you again 
DA and icedawg, you both need to relax.
Hiya everyone…
I’ve remained a bti of a lurker on this thread, but it’s been interesting to read the different opinions, and I get the feeling that ultimately people’s intentions are moving towards a common path…
Anyway. I had this dream last night!
Dream: Celebrations at DreamViews
[color=darkred]I’m waiting at a train station platform. There has been some kind of disagreement/argument between these two groups. I remember these two people waiting on the platform, and having to hide behind a shelter, so that they don’t get seen. This other group of people arrive, ready to catch the train. Somehow I start to talk to this girl I know called Kira.
She is talking to me about the group. She asks me if I’m going to join the celebrations. I look before me - it’s like a scene from a computer game. There’s a beach, it’s so colourful and filled with all this movement and life. Apparently this was “Dreamviews” idea.[/color]
Comments: Cool dream! I felt it was telling me about something cool that Dreamviews had put in to practise. Could it be related to their “Dream Guides” program?
Ultimately, what I felt was most important upon waking from this dream was to recognise that each of the different dream forums has unique strengths, and qualitie. And of course that we can only really learn from one another.
Transcending boundaries and divisions between ourselves, and seeing ourselves as ultimately part of one larger dreaming community (and of course one planet) seems to me pretty iimportant. It would be nice to think that the dreaming community in general could be a model of good, clear communication. People are far more likely to be inspired and interested in dreaming, if this is what they see.
Dreams help us build deeper more honest relationships. Why not put the power of dreaming to the test?
[size=150][color=darkblue]On the night leading into Sunday, 22 August 2004. (or any night before or afterwards)
Set your intention to dreaming a bridge of peace, between LD4ALL and DreamViews, a bridge to unify and strengthen the larger dreaming community!
I hope others will be there to join me? Let us know if you’ll be participating…
Seeya. Nick[/color][/size]