That would be intense! And it would also be a nice thing to try in an LD! 
What if in OBE your mind creates a model of the “reality” from the memory and tries to figure out whats going on? Like if you have asked your friend what is he going to do tonight and he replies “Im going to the bar tonight with Sophie” and then when youre OBEing, and travel to see whats going on the bar, you will propably see your friend with Sophie there making out or whatever 
Btw. what’s ESP?
And what about external brainwaves? Have you ever had this experience that youre thinknig about something then your friend or someone starts talking about it? Could it have something to do with it? Just a thought
ESP = Extra-Sensory Perception.
Ed.
This is all possible…I mean no one knows for sure what really happens during an OBE. But… to me there is something about OBE’s that seperate them from LD’s. For one often the vibrations feature in an OBE. This adds an interesting extra dimension to the experience. Secondly, the feeling of floating out of one’s body during the vibrations is incomparable to anything I have experienced in a dream, LD or otherwise. Third, the clarity of some of my OBE experiences far exceeds that of any other type of dreams I have had. And forth, unlike in most dreams I have experienced, during a good OBE the environment you enter whilst aware you are sleeping is seemingly amazingly parallel to your actual waking environment. When you lump all of these things together, it amounts to a pretty mind blowing experience, one that tends to defy consensual reality as we normally define it! I would have to say that out of all the sleep/dream phenomena I have experienced, an OBE ranks highest in challenging my previous perception of reality.
And remeber this…not so long ago, before Dr Stephen LaBerge’s pioneering work on LD’s…western scientists did not believe that becoming lucid in a dream was possible! Yet we all now know, many here from personal experience, that that was BS! The realm of mind and consciousness is as mysterious as it gets. Science hasn’t even scraped the surface and never will get far into uncovering the mysteries there… it doesn’t really like going there anyway, preferring to work only with what can be seen and tested by physical means. And I do not need to wait for a whitecoat to come up with a study to tell me what I am experiencing…I am quite able to make up my own mind now, judging by what I have personally experienced.
Ascension:
I agree with most of what you have said, particularly regarding the fact that ‘reality’ is merely what we interperet from the constant input through our senses. However, while at some stage our imagination might take over (in the case of dreams), there is still a notable difference in the stability and consistance of the real world, to the reality generated purely from the imagination. It seems real while you are dreaming it, but this is only because your sense of logic is asleep.
An example of this is Lucid Dreaming; Everything you see is coming from your own imagination, though your consciousness is there to take note of the unrealistic behavior of the world. While awake, sensory input is constant and definate - so there is an absolute difference between ‘realities’ experienced during different stages of wakefullness.
Anyone who tells you they can LD with all the precision and stablity of waking life is, in my opinion, extremely optimistic. The mind simply isn’t powerful enough to maintain a perfectly stable world, and calculate the results of each movement and action as dictated by the governing laws of physics. You can certainly experience an intensely vivid environment, but it is still far from anything close to realistic.
Saying that an OBE is different to a LD because it’s more vivid and clear is like saying that low-level LDs are an entirely different state of consciousness to high-level LDs, which they of course are not. That floating feeling (from my experience) can be recreated during an LD by flying, falling, or otherwise doing something to induce an uplifting rush through the body.
It always causes me distress to hear someone say that science will never understand how the brain works. I believe we have a very good understanding of the general process, and enough to determine almost everything about why we do whatever we tend to do. I’m not sure what you mean by “[science] doesn’t really like going there anyway, preferring to work only with what can be seen and tested by physical means.” The brain is a physical device, and every aspect of it can be studied. For example, in this thread some suggestions were posted that perhaps we have some ‘hidden’ senses that science hasn’t found. I can confidentally dismiss this idea (without certainty of course) knowing that such a feature of the brain would have to in some way be evident in it’s physical design.
It doesn’t make sense to me that people could see things from an alternate position to that of their own eyes. Why would we have eyes if somehow the brain could see without using them? How could anything be kept secret if someone was able to casually float through walls into any place they like? I’m thinking particularly about military codes and plans during a war with that last one.
It’s an interesting topic, but it just doesn’t make sense. Something as substantial as an OBE seems like an extremely easy thing to prove. A test might be conducted using a peice of paper, with a few numbers on it. If someone can reliably detect what those numbers are, every single time that the test is conducted, then how could there be any doubt that OBEs exist? And in such case, they would be ALL over the news. It would be unboubtedly the most substantial discovery in the history of humanity, and the test to prove it would be as simple as writing numbers on a peice of paper.
I’d like to believe (actually, in the interest of privacy I’d rather not ) but I can’t see why it could still be a debatable topic when it would be so easy to prove. Predicting the inevitable response of “But it has been proven. I saw a TV show in which a lady could read a set of numbers from a peice of paper on the roof of the building” I’d rather not hear it, thanks. Obviously there was some doubt because a bunch of ‘whitecoats’ didn’t drop their coffee and stand there dumbfounded. I honestly can’t see why a conclusive test (of no less than 10 seperate sets of number) hasn’t yet occured - I’ve heard a lot of people saying that they can do it on command. Come forward, you shy bunch of people - we need to hack at you with a scalpal.
“The brain is a physical device, and every aspect of it can be studied.”
Every aspect of it that we know about can be tested. When scientists examine the brain physically, they are limited by their senses they are using. Perhaps there is a possibility that there can be physical properties to things that we are not able to detect. There could be more physically to the brain than what we see. It could be an entirely different shape and size to what we see/feel it as when we take one out of somebody’s skull. Everything about the reality we perceieve is entirely questionable, even the reality that scientists see when they are examining something like the human brain.
“knowing that such a feature of the brain would have to in some way be evident in it’s physical design.”
I think you are making the mistake of assuming that for something to be reality it has to be evident to us humans. Do you actually know just how small and insignifican we humans are in comparison to the whole universe?
For many years, people thought the world was flat. It was always round. It didn’t just suddenly become round once we decided that it was.
If things aren’t evident to us, the rest of the universe doesn’t care. I don’t think we should make the mistake of thinking we are the universes ultimate creature that deserves to know everything.
Ed
Athiest,
I can understand your apprehension regarding the dynamics of “OBE’s”.
How they can actually occur and so on. I do not have any concrete theory on what actually happens during one, and I also am open to (believe it or not) the possibility that they may be purely a mental construct like any other type of dream. But what I am saying is that in my personal experience there is something about an OBE that makes it…different. I have experienced normal non lucid dreams, lucid dreams, sleep paralysis and so on. I have flown in many dreams, sometimes lucid, more often not. To me there is a major difference between a flying dream and the experience of an out of body projection. I have had a couple of dozen flying dreams perhaps, and perhaps a dozen “OBE” type experiences. I personally find a great difference between the two.
An OBE is not just flying about…it is the perceived detachment of mind or spirit or whatever you wish to call it from the physical body from it’s place of rest. And the intense, consistent electrifying rush which occurs each time I perform this action. I have become lucid in many different dream situations, but what I am saying here is that the OBE type situation is unique in it’s clarity and consistency. If it is just a result of imagination at work as in a dream, why then do many people report intense electrical activity during an OBE?
Why would the imagination in so many different individuals produce such a similar effect? The very fact that the symptoms of an OBE are so broadly accepted and documented world wide must surely raise some questions?
I try to follow my own instincts on matters that defy “logic”. I don’t claim to have all the answers, far from it. To be honest I didn’t even give a fiddlers for OBE’s to begin with. I was just interested in becoming lucid. Then one night I experienced an OBE and it blew me away…it stood out from anything else I had ever encountered, LD’s included. All I believe is that due to the nature of my experiences I am going to keep an open mind as to what may be occurring, as those experiences flew in the face of any preconceived idea of reality I had at the time. I am just reporting my experiences here…nothing more nothing less. People can take them as they find them. We could argue back and forth what is really happening but truth be known, neither of us can say for sure. All I can say with any certainty is how I experienced and interpreted these events. They were and are my “reality” and I tell them as I saw them. Like I said I would not expect nor desire everyone else to see things from my point of view. Things get very stagnant when everyone is in agreement. Though the subject of OBE’s on this board is definitely one of the more contentious issues! Anyway, I guess I have said my all on the subject. This board is ultimately about lucid dreaming, and I personally am more interested in the subject of LD’s right now myself.
Ed Case:
I couldn’t agree more. You probably already realize this, but your post was based on uncertainty. You said ‘perhaps’, ‘could’, and ‘possible’ several times. You’re absolutely right, there could be elements that make up who we are which aren’t visible to any of the senses that we currently use. The brain could function as hub for all manner of astral energy and other undetectable phenomanon which assist it in doing things like allowing OBEs, Astral Projection, ect.
I don’t deny there is a possibility, but my believes are kept in a different box to my hopes and speculations. Millions of people hope that they’re not as pointless as it would appear. They hope that they are here for purpose, and that there is a plan for them after this physical body stops functioning. Having not seen any evidence that this is the case, I join them in hoping. However, I don’t believe. It’s all just a matter of how much faith you have in your hopes. I don’t mean to be offensive with this, but the technical term for it is delusion.
There is almost certainly much more to life than we can see, hear or otherwise sense. But rather than trying to guess what it is, I live by relying on what I can so far prove. For each possibility that something exists outside of our ability to detect, an equal chance exists that perhaps there IS nothing else out there. What you see is what there is.
I’d rather not think of this as a debate, but more of an exchange of ideas. I’m willing to change my opinions like a light switch, and a lot of people here have some interesting ideas that I enjoy reading.
Yeah. Well I don’t want to state something as if it’s a fact if it’s simply a brief idea in my head. 
I don’t believe we go on after death either.
Please don’t think that just because I sometimes question the truth of science, that this means I am religious or that I believe in everything which is the complete opposite to science. I am actually very non-religious. This was actually the point of my ealier message I think.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that you’re saying that I am religious, I simply wanted to point out that I’m not.
I simply like to question the nature of reality from time to time, for my own amusement as much as nything. 
Yeah. That’s a pretty good approach to life really I guess. 
That’s actually quite a good point.
I agree.
Ed
I guess the way I see it is that nothing but your own experiences really mean crap at all. If you experience an OBE and it feels real to you then thats what matters. Take something from it and use it to help yourself grow. If you have a theory (or a desire to experiment with something… like astral projection) then set out to test it with an open mind. I think to begin by saying that something does or dosen’t exist without proof of either is … well, your own business, but I find it sad and closed minded.
I guess thats why I dislike it when people come into a discussion on how to OBE and say that its all just a dream or a bunch of crap as though an authority. If its not something you believe in then let people get on with their own studies and check your negativism at the door. I have no problem with someone stating a contrary belief but its most often stated as a truth that everyone should be going by rather than a differing opinion. (That wasn’t directed at anyone in particular. I just see it a lot in these types of discussions … no flames please! )
Apparently new born babies senses are still so rudementary and linked so closely that sounds will affect their vision. Saw it on “Body Story” 
I love that show. A loud bang may cause vision to waver and ripple.
For me its not about if an obe can or cant…or is or aint possible…
For me its more about being critical and do tests…and if u dont, then dont give it a name yet…its easy to give every experience a name if u dont do tests 4 what is is…specially in consciousness and brain experiences…
Dont say to fast its this or that…i did tests…my obe’s were lds…could also been i had found out they were true…but testing is better…or else u can say or believe anything and thats a form of closemindedness to…balance lays in the middle here.
Jeff
I’m just wondering how people see in OBEs, because our spirits(or what ever you call it) doesn’t have eyes. My theory is that OBEs are real, and it is our mind which makes us see(so we can navigate in OBEs).
Maybe we have some unnatural senses during OBEs, like telepathy.
Just few thoughts, and I havent had OBEs yet.
that said our spirits don’t really have a human form either, we generally see ourselves in human form because it is easier to accept.
We don’t need eyes because we are just engery.
the best thing about OBE and AP is that if you are willing to believe you can be anything you can chose any form you like, human, animal, ball of energy, whatever or whoever you like.
I prefer AP to OBE because there’s less chance you are just dreaming it as an AP is done with the consciousmind where as OBEs like LDs are doing with the subconscious when sleeping.
just because the world you see when dreaming or astrally travelling isnt how it is really… dont you think thats because the astral plane is DIFFERENT?
Maybe we are energy but our bodies are materia.
If APs and OBEs are real, I believe it’s more like a “perfect awareness” and being “one” with all, than leaving your body behind.
well one thing i do know in my few astral projections i have success with i have noticed that i do not see as you would when awake. I see in all directions at all times.
I was reading something online that described it as “8 corners view” in that you can litterally see all 8 corners of the room. (rooms are cubed - so 8 corners 4 at the top 4 at the bottom - so as not to confuse people hehe)
maybe “perfect awareness” would be a more fitting term.
Insane_Goth thats seeing 4 dimensional! Instead of three dimensional.
Jeff
Isn’t astral projection and out of body experiences the same thing? You don’t have to be asleep while your having an OBE and you definitely don’t have to be unconscious during it.
Anyway, if somebody could tell me, what’s the difference between WILD and AP anyway? I mean, who’s to say there’s a difference at all? The techniques for each of them are more or less the same, the feelings, vibrations and that are the same. Anything you imagine when you astral project will appear. Anything you imagine LDing will appear. People have reported while APing that the world isn’t as it should be, doors missing or in the wrong places and things like that. Isn’t it the exact same with a lucid dream? Maybe, it’s just that when people are intentionally trying to astral project, as they go into the dream, there mind creates a scene where they are floating above there bodies? Then, do whatever they do until they wake back up, thinking that they’re exploring the real world, when really it’s just a creation of their mind? Exactly like a dream, when you think it’s the real world, but it’s inside your own mind you just haven’t figured it out. I mean, is there really any proven difference?
Wouldn’t it be funny if people who think they have been astral projecting their whole lives it’s really just been in their own mind, and thinking it was seriously their astral bodies travelling through the real world, have been limited from all the things you can do in a lucid dream, and they’ve never realized it? 
P.S. Insane goth, I think what you’re talking about is 360 degree vision. am I right? When you are able to see all around you at once? anyway …
I believe that dreaming can lead you to another part of your brain that you dont use often. But I also believe that OBEs are different. I think that they are a spritual part that is found deep withen you. Right now the minor things like floating and distorted furniture are just kiddy stuff. In the old days (and now), buddist used that to talk to god and answer questions. Thats why they “know all”. Also they could heal, float, and move things/people. I think it is related to OBEs and meditation.
Oh yes lol…its not seeing 4 dimensional its seeing in all 3d directions…oops!
Thx imagine…
Jeff