Male circumcision.

Lucid Lounge
81

yeah, but i think the option should be there for it to be done upon your request, and done HUMANELY…

i have a living will form (given to me in a psych class) but i’m too afraid to fill it out… you know… I mean… I’d prefer to let nature take it’s course… I’d like to be saved if possible but I’d prefer death (coming from me as an in tact person) as opposed to you know, an incapcitated painful life.

You know I mean it’s easy if you can still have enough life force in you to commit suicide if it gets out of hand… there’s so much guess work… but as it stands… I’d like to have the option there to be euthanized…

Have you seen Metallica’s One video? Something like that would be… literal… hell… I can’t imagine more than 1 day like that…

and I mean… what is being in a coma like? If you’re completely unconscious are you already dead and “gone” or in the “afterlife” or whatever… or are you bound to your body? Are you dreaming?

There’s this documentary we watched of this girl Nancy Kruzan (who paved the way for the living will to be instated) and I mean… it’s horrible, she looks around the room but she’s paralyzed, you’ve no idea whether she’s alive or not, or if just… some sort of animalistic reaction is occurring as if shocking a dead frog… and they do in fact eventually dehydrate her to death.

I guess it’s safe to say if you aren’t in beta/alpha/theta/delta you probably aren’t conscious and therefore prone to pain but I don’t know if they ever determined that or not.

I mean… really though… ODing on moprhine compared to 30 years as vegetable… why not? Those 30 years aren’t very valuable to you, nature wouldn’t want you to be alive in the first place, right?

That’s why I just think the OPTION should be there, and should be humane, at that.

82

I do agree that the option should be there but, only if the person can do it themselves. In other words the person should have the ability to push the button that starts the morphine drip or what ever. I just don’t think people should have the power to make that decision for someone else.

83

I couldnt have said it better myself Milod789 :wink:
It should be a persons own individual decision and not taken for that person by others. Because its not a necessary thing.

84

Jeff, hehehe, the comment was towards euthanasia.

However, to respond back on topic of circumcision.
Circumcision is not crippling, and I refuse to play the role of a victim.
I refuse to read here and believe that my parents mutilated me.
I do realize other cultures will not understand this.
I do realize and acknowledge the risk involved, and hope parents consider these risk for their future sons. and I hope people hurt by mistakes can find peace and justice.

Circumcized Fathers are happy with being circumsized, and they should have the right to pass this trait onto their son.
It is the parents right to choose. Just like some parents choose the sex of their children, and eventually eye, hair, and skin color.

85

I don’t think you should feel mutilated or feel like a victim. I don’t. It is just if there is no legitimate medical reason for something then why have it done?

86

I take it that means you huge trees too?

87

??? sorry I don’t understand your question or comment.

88

well what i’m saying is if you have stated on good reason to a trusted person that you would want it done if you couldn’t do it yourself, then it should be allowed too.

prefferably via the living will, then it’s all legal.

wtf DreamAddict you’re saying parents should genetically engineer their children? What if they want to make their children mentally unstable to live horrible depressed lives, in the slim hopes that they become good writers, or soemthing?

Maybe I’ll have a kid with superhuman strength and use him to beat people into submission via an organized crime ring I start…

89

lol Oops your right DA :wink:

90

On paper what you are saying sounds ok. Hear is my problem. Today I could say that I do not ever want to be kept alive via artificial means. However, I may not feel the same way if I am actually in that situation. I just think that if the person is unable to do the act themselves we should stay on the side of life.

That’s quite a jump. I don’t think DreamAddict said anything close to that.

We went from circumcision to euthanasia and now we are about to move into genetic engineering.

91

yeah, but in the same light, a highly christian family (mine) might say “no no, don’t kill him!” for religious reasons when I totally don’t want them to do that. (keep me alive, as of now)

We have to figure in … you know… humane-ness… I’d personally say euthansasia, painlessly, is the humane thing to do for a long term comatose… or semi comatose (that’s even worse than comatose probably)

some will disagree, I know. That’s why the living will is nice… not everyone knows of it though.

onto genetic engineering
“It is the parents right to choose. Just like some parents choose the sex of their children, and eventually eye, hair, and skin color.”

that’s how i interpret it

i’ve no idea how they choose the sex but I mean… choosing eye hair and skin color… CHOOSING? sounds like genetic engineering to me, maybe it is just meant that biologically they are chosen through dna interaction…

but that’s wholely different than circumcision.

so i mean why stop with looks, you can make a monkey stop being lazy, I’m sure you can eventually genetically force someone into introversion, extroversion, do all sorts of uncool things to their genes before they are even born.

(flood control shouldn’t apply to editing)

92

Parents make choices for their children. It is what parents do.
Circumcision may be done for mostly cultural and tranditional reasons, however it does have benefits for the parents. It’s a large responsiblity to cleanse an infant’s penis daily. Please remember the lower number of penis cancer in circumcised men and the lower transmission rates of STDs. Something is said about hygiene here. The circumcised penis is much “lower maintenance.”

I think there are many reasons why parents choose to have this done early. Like a visit to the dentist some parents have to lie and trick children into the door, and then strap them to the seat. Pulling teeth and braces may hurt children, but it’s decided for healthy hygiene, less complications for the future, and sometimes for pure cosmetic reasons.
When should we interfer how a parent decides to treat the hygiene of their childen?

93

DA you make it sound that the parent own their children or something.

I don’t agree with that. You are responsible for your child, you have chosen to put a new soul in this world and you care for it as best as you can, so this soul can grow and experience and recreate itself.

i’m sorry but if that is the main reason for doing it i find it quite egoistical. Further more i think this is not true since in europe nobody is circumsized as a baby boy and i never have heard mothers complaining about the maintenance nor have i ever heard there are infections on that age.

94

In Britian, it is usually done for religous purposes or medical purposes.

I was circumcized. It’s dissapointing to hear that I have lost some feeling in my penis. However, I had kept getting an infection under my foreskin, and had it not been for circumsition I would have a very bad penis, or no penis at all.

So I am rather greateful. Also, the fact that they were in a hurry meant they didn’t neaten it up, they left a little bit of the fore skin on the bottom. This is very sensative so I havn’t losed to much feeling in it.

Guess I got off lucky.

I think it should only be used in medical circumstances. This is, unless they investigate better ways of circumsizing.

It is better to do it while they are young, because their penis gets bigger and more sensitive. So it woould hurt more the odler you get.

I don’t think your analogy works. Life and Death are something very different. Life with a circumsized penis, and without a circumsized penis aren’t so different.

95

pasQuale, my statements do sound like “child owenership” but I didn’t intend for it to sound that way.
Some people here want to argue that it should be a personal choice, and I wanted to give examples of how parents must make choices for their children/infants.
Most of the choices that parents make for you while you are infants are life changing. Ask any psychologist and they will trace your problems back to your parents and infancy.

and “cleansing” is not usually a main reason for circumcision for just the parents, but if so it shouldn’t be seen as “egotistical” because the circumcized males also have the benefits of “less maintenance” … but this is only one of the many reasons this practice has been handed down the thousands of generations.

96

I kept my boys from being circumsized. With the birth of my first one I hemmoraged and was very weak. The hospital folk tried to slip past me and circumsize him anyway. I ended up throwing the first public tantrum of my life and finally signed a bunch of papers to stop them. That was 25 years ago. I hope things have changed by now. As with anything of importance, you educate yourself and when you know better, you do better, right?

I never had a bit of trouble with them with infections then, nor do they have problems now. Being blessed with plenty of soap and clean water—and communicating the importance of keeping oneself clean Everywhere—worked beautifully. Dh has scaring from the procedure and was quite willing to spare his sons. Religious mutilation has no place in my life.

As for stds, the same kind of communication between us taught them that if they aren’t careful, sex can kill them now. Be picky and use condoms. Thankfully, they have…

Pax

97

“Please remember the lower number of penis cancer in circumcised men and the lower transmission rates of STDs”

If you had read the things I listed (i know i listed a lot) it points out that the circumcised penis is much more likely to bleed during sex, increasing the risk of STDs…

The STD argument is weak at best.

I have spots of … like… torn skin… sometimes… i’ve had a few instances of bleeding, too.

dentistry is done out of absolute necessity, and the children have a voice in it at least… you give them fillings to save their teeth… if circumcisions were ONLY issued when necessary to save the penis (i can’t see why you can’t just upload some antibiotics if you have an infection going on for most cases) then it would be an apt analogy, but as it stands, it isn’t.

There is no harm done by keeping teeth clean, there is tremendous harm and DANGER done via circumcision.

technodreamer how long ago was it that you were circumcised, in your youth, or in a time of already sexual development? if the latter how does the feeling in the glans compare to before you were cut? Do you need lube?

98

Actually when you think about it dentistry is basically cosmetic as well. I mean if you do not go to the dentist what is the worst that can happen? Your teeth will rot and you will be unattractive. Ok so you will have pain too. Nothing a good pair of pliers can’t fix. :smile:

I am beginning to think the hole circumcision thing is also cosmetic. Since many people from other parts of the world have never heard of these mystery infections. Now don’t get me wrong. I don’t feel raped or mutilated either and everything works just fine.

What is scary is that when you compare all the links (for and against) it’s like the battle of the experts. How can anyone make an informed decision about what is best.

I don’t recall ever bleeding during sex.

99

well dentristy is comestic to a point, I mean, I for one, do not have the best teeth in the world but you know, never had braces and don’t really care.

But you know if something needed to be done to SAVE my teeth i’d be all for it… same thing with circumcision if it was some dire last effort thing to save the penis somehow…

Now granted I do like getting my teeth all clean and polished but that isn’t really “painful” per se, it’s not ruining anything, it’s not taking anything away, and it’s not done 100% against your will.

Now yes, I agree, they do circumcision mainly out of tradition and social cosmetic appear, but that is entirely different.

I’d be like carving body art into your skin, except you’re not the one doing it, your parents are… or tattooing an infant…

but worse… it can’t be undone.

and I mean I know I’m biased but I mean
circumcision pros: look (yeah right, not a pro to me) religion (again, yeah right, you don’t get to choose your religion, it’s forced upon you) sanitation (umm, if you live in america, europe, asutralia, whatever, this shouldn’t even be an issue)…

cons: extreme pain… gross desensitization… keritzation, pain during erections, possible complications resulting in infant death… likelihood of bleeding, scarring, bowed erections…

yeah umm… seriously, what’s the deal? Maybe none of you have any of those but keeping the penis CLEAN is easy, JUST WASH IT! okay? you shouldn’t be having sex without a condom either unless you’re married or in a committed relationsihip, so there you go.

milod it isn’t so much mass bleeding it’s that there are small scarred and open exposed secondary layers of skin due to minor tearing resulting from the circumcision process not leaving you enough skin to maintain an erection properly… and also masturbation/sex can re-open and you know rough up to the point of minor bleeding those spots…

I’d be surprised to hear that you don’t have ANY “bare” spots on the shatft somewhere that form time to time you notice they get really raw, maybe even bleed a little.

I do…

yeah a condom fixes that but what abuot oral sex, that’s a good way to get aids if you’re prone to penile bleeding … (of course bleeding gums too… dammit… stupid STDs…)

plus said anatomically … the penis is supposed to produce it’s own lubrication, the glans is supposed to be a mucous membrane, pair you dryself with a somehwat dry girl and you’re asking for complications… it’s just not “normal” at all… it totally impairs the intended functioning of sex, masturbation, etc.

the vagina has it’s own folds of skin/protections/cushions from the outside world, why would you make an organ that is going to eb exposed to the elements and not give it extreme protection from them (i.e. foreskin) ? Why would you take that away… what if the vagina was just so gaping hole sticking out totally dried up and devoid of lubrication ?

That’s not the damn way these things are supposed to work.

100

For me, I can answer in the order listed:
No
No
NO! I now understand the term “keritzation”
No
No
No
No

Sounds like you did not have a proper circumcision. You have every right to be upset with circumcision. Techodreamer and Greeneyes have added valuable comments to both sides of this discussion. Greeneyes is an American that refused and disagrees with circumcision, and Techo is European and it was necessary for him.

HolyReality, what does tell you why they decided to have you circumcised? Have you told them about your complications? Was their complications at the time of the circumcision?

EDIT: NO!