Why do you say emotionally insecure? I think it’s more a matter of discipline, priorities and lifestyle than emotions. Whatever the case, I agree with you that they should be cared for.
NapoleonDynamite55, what surprise me the most is that you’re talking without real knowledge of LD’ing and you cannot bring us any useful example.
Would you have said: “Hey, I’ve this problem with LD’ing” or “Hey, I know a guy that is so obsessed with LD’ing that etc.”, I would have think: “Waw, it’s the first time that I’ve heard of such a think in three years on this forum, but it could be a important problem to deal with”. But it’s not the case at all. All those assumptions are purely virtual. Thus what are you afraid of? And why? Do you think that you’ve yourself such an obsessive mind that it could endanger yourself? Then you should notice that an obsessive mind can be obsessed by anything (especially by real things, work, money, sex, etc.) not only by LD’ing.
Well all possible dangers are really worth mentioning if they have a realistic chance of happening…
Basilus is very right.
Since there has never been an actual example of this obsession of LDing, you really don’t need to fear.
It’s a tad obvious that everybody should be aware of obsessed people, people who think about one thing way too often. It goes without saying. And because there actually isn’t any problem like the one you are mentioning, it can continue to go without saying.
We could all warn people about obsession. I could tell everyone I know to care for people that are obsessed with riding their bicycle backwards (slightly obscure example 
). But it can be assumed that there are not any people who think about riding bicycles backwards 24/7. So there is no reason to warn everybody about it.
There isn’t anything this forum can do to keep an eye out for obsessed LDers unless they come here and explain their problem to us.
So, in conclusion, we’ve all learned a valuable lesson…
Never challenge the members of an LD forum on the importance of reality over lucid dreaming 
Now 
I’m gonna go dream 1/3 of my life away…
Oh! Before I do that–your arguments are null and void on Mondays, Napoleon And sometimes Tuesdays 
Its a good post Napoleon.
Its like gaming. Some people get lost in these computer games, they can only think about this imaginary world, wich has little importance in their real lives.
The same could happen with LD’ing. All I would think throughout the day would be on LD’ing, devoting too much attention to an imaginary world.
Obsessions can happen with anything if one is not careful.
I don’t think you got the point. It has nothing to do with LD’ing being important or not. I just have the feeeling some opinions here are just due to fear of unknown. LD’ing is still unknown hence it looks like bizarre, thus some persons believe it must be dangerous, just like psychoanalysis must have been look weird and perhaps worrying in the early XX.
I wonder if on others forums, there are people who warn others about the possible dangers of being obsessed by world economic, news, movies, medicine and health, litterature, poetry, mobile phones, mathematics, sport, photographs, Star Wars, Honda cars… and even forums. 
Nevetheless, it’s far much dangerous than LD’ing. A lot of people are completely obsessed by mobile phones for instance. 
Hmm and again.
It takes a lot of discipline just to become lucid for the first time for most people. So they would probably not go get… yeah.
I think too that the people who are able to make the constant effort that is required to have LD’s are generally able to make the same effort in order to reach their goals IRL. People who are only dreaming their life will think a while of the wonderful things they could do while LD’ing, then they’ll soon give up cause they won’t be able to do this as easily as they planned to.
Anyhow, it’s interesting to note that LaBerge’s quote NapoleonDynamyte55 stressed about is an excerpt from the chapter when LaBerge’s treats some “reservations you might have about lucid dreaming that could inhibit your progress.”
Thus I really think it’s worthy to quote the paragraph in its integality:
I agree that this topic should exist here because it’s better to take something into consideration than not. Obviously Lucid Dreaming can be the object of an obsession, like anything that feels good. Like religion and getting paid.
I still think that it’s due to the personality. I don’t think lucid dreaming has any more potential for addiction than either of those.
The fear of this seems to be that it’s something you do while alseep. In “another world” that is weird and scary to some. And for some reason an outsider may think that being attached to that “fake world” is unhealthy.
To the outsider the dreamworld has no value, because only the dreamer can experience it. But to the dreamer the experiences within can be the most rewarding in their life.
If you think about it. What makes something important to a person? It’s based ONLY on the emotions involved. Emotions are the basis for all opinions of good and bad. And the intensity decides if it’s important.
It is said that in dreams emotions are amplified. So to the individual, a dream experience can be more important than many real life experiences.
So I ask you. If a person is leading a very dull life, is it not understandable if he wants to retire into the dreamworld, where he has more fun experiences? Does this not bring happiness?
And I ask this too. If he want’s to have more fun experiences do you think he cares if they are in a dream or not? He would probably like to seek out fun IRL when he gets a taste for it in his dreams.
So you’re probably thinking he gonna say “Hey, why bother seeking out RL fun when I can have it in my dreams?”
And I say, why indeed? If he is satisfied completely then I’m happy for him.
If he on the other hand perhaps is afraid to seek out fun IRL, for whatever reason. He just may be inspired by the dreams to brave up and do it. And if he doesn’t, at least he’ll have his dreams.
Okay so, that’s not what you were talking about? It’s about the obsession. He goes around thinking about dreams too much. Well, where is the line? What is too much? Is there such a line at all?
Everyone lives inseide their heads. We can’t escape that. So inside the obsessed head there is alot of references to dreams. Perhaps daydreaming alot. So what? so does everyone else. It becomes a question of mindfulness. Will the obsessed person daydream more than others? Go around like a zombie not caring about the world around them? Wait a minute?! Doesn’t that sound like most people?
Our minds constantly drifting back and forth from one thing to another. If the subject is always the same, as with the obsessed lucid dreamer, does it make a difference?
Can obsession with lucid dreaming cause inability to do ones job? Not more than obsession with gardening or skateboarding. Maybe you are not doing as good a job as you would have? Well. If your work is not good enough you get fired right? You’ll be warned, if you care, you’ll shape up. If not, fired. IF you can’t concentrate at work maybe you have ADD or something.
But if you don’t care and don’t advance in your career and such? Well, tell it to someone who cares! If he won’t compete for the better jobs that’s better for us. We need workers in all positions anyway. He can do his part for society, he’s just thinking about lucid dreaming as he does.
If it gets bad and he doesn’t go to work, and doesn’t care to look for another job for wich he is more suited. He’ll end up on the streets right? Homeless. To outsiders, a failure, a tragedy. But to him, perhaps still happy. Because he still has the thing he cares about. Wich is possible wherever you are in life. The dreamer can be happy as long as he dreams.
Realistically. This is not likely to happen at all. Just because you are obsessed doesn’t mean you are an idiot. And you’ll still have time to do everything needed from you. SO life eill go on. It’s different when you are obsessed with other things. things in real life. I real life. if you decide to play videogames for 8 hours it imposes on other things in waking life. And the same goes for all other obsessions you have of things in waking life. Lucid dreaming seems to be the best alternative of things to be obsessed with when you think about it this way. That is of things that don’t have a constructional value, like being obsessed with your career or physcial fitness. Lucid dreaming is ofcourse not without it’s constructional value.
As for mentally unstable people. They are already mentally unstable. There was a topic once about someone who’s friend had schizofrenia and believed he was in a dream. You can see a connection, but it’s nothing more than giving the psychosis a theme. A feeling of unreality is not uncommon.
Lucid Dreams don’t cause mental illness.
I think I’ve written enough.
See how I divided the text this time!!
A very good post.
It is good that people ask questions at least, so we can mash it and yet again say that LDing isn’t going to hurt you.
I recall there being parts of wikipedia saying that you shouldnt attempt to become lucid if you suffer from schizofrenia, but they seem to have removed that.
NapoleonDynamite55 , search for members that asked how to stop LDing, it might help your theory.
But just wanting to sleep? I’ve not seem anything like that. Not sure if it might happen, still, I believe it’s possible, we don’t know the limits of LDing to say that dreams are just ramdom.
[edit] the only bad part I’ve found in wikipedia was:
en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Lucid_Drea … d_dreaming
but I recall parts concerning about the person being mentally ill.
Ok guys, calm down, this isn’t a forum about how to write proper english. Just give the guy a break, I think that it’s alright to lighten up with grammar concepts on this forum.
Anyway, I came here to tell you all that the other day I was reading somewhere about how dreams and hallucinations, biologically, are intimately connected. That’s why sometimes people see things in their dreams even after they wake up.
I’m not saying that lucid dreaming is bad, I think it’s wonderful, but I have come to the conclusion that it MIGHT drive mentally unhinged people into dangerous delusions. Maybe even hallucinations. I don’t know. Anyone in here a psychologist?
Yes indeed, and you can even experience such hallucinations when you try to have WILD, in the hypnagogic state. About people seeing dreams after they wake up, there are two cases, sleep paralysis trouble and hypnopompic hallucinations (far less common). But they are not dangerous, unless you believe your hallucinations to be real. It’s similar in schizophrenia: it become dangerous when schizophrenic people believe their voices to be real and tolding them true information - for instance when they believe that God told them to cross a highway naked (true case, it was the uncle of a friend of mine). But you can find schizophrenics forums where people say they know yet that they hallucinations are not real and how to deal with them, and they feel very well.
Now about the concept of “reality”, something should be well understood. Lucid dreams (or hallucinations) are phenomenologically “real”, i.e. they have often all the caracteristics of reality (with the exception that they are not very stable). But the fact you’ll consider them as real (i.e valuable information that has to be taken in account) or not depends on you.
I’m not a psychologist but I’m very interested in psychology and neurobiology. You won’t find in psychologic litterature anything about the dangers of LD’ing - with the exception of some rare pseudo-psychoanalytic websites created by people who don’t know anything about LD’ing and believe that through LD’ing, you control your inconscious - which first is wrong, second is stupid, third they should read Freud cause he tells briefly about LD’ing and Hervey de Saint Denis in The Interpretation of Dreams. You’ll find no examples, no study cases, all you’ll find are vague recommendations about not LD’ing if you are psychotic. Three psychologists have been deeply involved in LD’ing (LaBerge, Tholey and Zadra still nowadays) and in brief they tell that LD’ing is as dangerous as anything (BTW, driving a car is certainly more dangerous).
Moreover, three years ago, I had to see a psychiatrist because I was having a depression (due to awful work conditions and moral harassment, a work friend of mine even suicided). At this time, I discovered LD4all and I began to have mail exchanges with a french LD’er, so that I was interested in LD’ing again. I told my psychiatrist about this and if he knew it and what he thought about, of course he didn’t know and I had to explain anything, at the first time he was dubious and said: let’s try, then he perfectly saw there was no problem. Thus in my case, even in the most unstable psychologic conditions I’ve ever known, there was no danger.
Now there are some known cases when LD’ing may be dangerous for mental health and it’s when it’s related with so-called spirituality. But as you’ll see, it’s not because of LD’ing but spirituality. Some people believe that what they experience is real, that they are truly in “another plane” where they can meet angels or demons. I know one case (though not on the forum), it was a guy who faced not very cool dream characters and had lucid nightmares. As he believed the DC’s to be powerful real entities, there was nothing he could do. Each of its LD was a nightmare, he forced himself to wake up quickly too much thus he got SP and believed that demons were coming IRL. He began to be slightly paranoid, even believing his mate was a demon. By chance, he found a website about LD’ing, he contacted the webmaster who was a very good LD’er and she told him all this was crap. He was relieved and quite immediatly, his nightmares disappeared. Similar cases can be found in psychiatric litterature concerning the sleep paralysis trouble: some people believe they are attacked by demons, they become slightly paranoid, when they are explained about the phenomenon the symptoms quickly disappear.
But as you can see, the problem is more related to beliefs than to LD’ing. Cases of people who entered a so-called spiritual way and ended up in a psychiatric hospital are not so rare.
There are also some cases of people that claim that they can’t stop being lucid in dreams (one or two in three years on the forum). It’s perhaps due to a negative autosuggestion: they so want to stop LDin’g that they think and think about LD’s, especially when falling asleep (“I so want not to have a LD tonight”) so that they have LD’s. Moreover, the problem seems to me bizarre and I’m not fully convinced: first, I don’t see where the problem lies (being lucid a few minutes in a whole night doesn’t look like a problem); second, if they don’t want to have LD’s, the best would be to not remember dreams, to not pay attention to dream life, etc. All this is very easy IMO cause it’s easiest not to make effort than the opposite. Hence, I think there is something wrong in such accounts, for instance they make a big affair about a problem that will disappear a few days later.
Here are the only known problems. They may perhaps be classified under the “being obsessed by LD’s” label.
I tend to agree - LD can be a private play-ground where we can do whatever we want. Considering how easily people get addicted to anything that feels good (internet, shopping, online-games… it doesn’t have to be hard drugs!), it’s reasonable to assume that the same can happen with LDing.
Another aspect: Since sofar nobody has a complete understanding of how dreams work and what purpose they serve, it might turn out that we need non-lucid dreams - after all, that’s the way humans normally dream, and it has been tested that we need dreams to stay sane.
(I’m having this image of a dozen forum users drawing in breath and poising their fingers on the keyboards for a scathing reply. Hang on for a moment.)
But I think it is unlikely that LDing turns into an addiction, at least a lot less likely than, say, virtual online worlds.
First off, LDing takes some dicipline to achieve. You have to learn to remember your dreams, you have to do RCs for weeks or longer. Most techniques require concentration, like WILD. From comparison with other demanding habits which can turn addictive (jogging for example), I’d say something that takes work is less likely to turn into a harmful addiction.
Secondly: I think somebody who needs to escape reality finds a way to do that, and probably an easier way than LDing. Or, other way round: somebody who get’s dependent on LDs would, without LDs, become dependent on something else.
Third: we (that is, our conscious minds) play around in our subconscious, but the subconscious is still the stronger player in this game. We might try to walk through a mirror, but we can’t decide what’s on the other side. I don’t think we ever fully control our dreams.
And somehow I think our subconscious keeps us from getting where we’re not ready to go, but that’s more of a personal impression.
Even though I think it’s unlikely that LDing could become harmful, I still think you are asking a reasonable question. LDing on purpose is still a rather new thing, there’s little research on it, and I doubt that there are a lot of people who have done it for 10 years or longer. The fact that it’s fun and no immediate harm comes from it isn’t proof that no harm could come from it.
I’m sure that in time scientists will tell us LD causes cancer. Everything else causes cancer right? Potato chips, soda and recently, the spices in noodles cause cancer. You know what? I drank soda and ate noodles today. I just don’t care about those warnings.
I didn’t just write that for the heck of it. Seriously, in this day and age people become so paranoid. Yes, there are substances in foods that are harmful and some can cause cancer. But if we take into consideration everything that may possibly be harmful and stay away from it, we would starve to death. Imagine Way back in time when humans just came to be, how awful water they would drink, and how many of the wrong things they would eat. Humanity is still here.
I think we have become too future conscious in our society. Not that we shouldn’t think about the future. I just think that we need to relax a little. Yes, I know that anything can be addictive. It’s actually the response in our brain that is addictive. That’s why we have extreme sporters and football fans and everything.
Yenia you are right that it’s the escapism that would be the culprit in the event of a LDadditc and they would escape in other ways when they can’t sleep. Come to think of it, abstinence causes insomnia if anything, how nasty for the addict of sleep.
You are probably right about there not being an abundance of LDs that have been at it for over 10 years, but I think the number is probably higher than you think. LD is not that new either it has been around for thousands of years, but then probably not as popular as now.
Still I think that there are probably enough long time LDers out there to come up with a few examples of what could go wrong.
Just like the risk of getting cancer from a potatochip is real, Do you think it’s anything to worry about? Are you going to change your potato chip eating habits? In the end, if you did, will you regret it? You can live your life without them for sure but is it worth it to stay away because doc said, you COULD get cancer from it?
We should keep in mind the risk. And just like genetics play a role in getting cancer, your personality plays a role in an addiction. Know yourself! If you have an obsessive personality, or if you are an escapist. Go ahead and pursue lucid dreams! But be aware of your own actions!
Oh and, to Yenia again. Though studies have been made about needing dreams to stay sane. I think that it’s clearly a need to have REM sleep, but I don’t believe and studies have yielded any results regarding Dream content and sanity. Besides, even very skillfull lucid dreamers have normal dreams too.
Although there have been people coming here complaining about having too many lucid dreams. So I guess you could say they were driving them crazy.
Interesting.
I did some searching about a week ago (I did a short represenation on LDing at college), and there are a few cautions by psychologist like Tholey, who studies and works with Lucid Dreaming for decades by now. Those cautions are against aggression and uninhibited use of one’s own power in a dream:
" Tholey often describes dream figures as having independent consciousnesses, with individual personality traits and behavior patterns. But he does not mean to imply that they are somehow autonomous beings. Rather, they are conflicting ideas and emotions from the dreamer.
For this reason, Tholey says, lucid dreamers should never resort to aggression, though self-defense may be necessary. "
(quoted from findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m … 82747/pg_4)
Of course, nobody has to listen to advice like this. But ignoring it (because hey, doctors are always advising us against fast food and smoking and all that) doesn’t disprove either those cautions or reports of dreamers on the negative effect of egocentric behavior in their dreams.
Ah! I haven’t read the entire post… but it is late and I’d like to put something down–
I can see the flaws, as I’m sure everyone can, lucids can be enlightening, but also frustrating at the same time, not achieving a goal or not achieving lucidity at all–
And so can life, reality of all sorts… ect.
Both realities can be disasterous and inspiring, both surreal in their own way and easier to except-- Waking world we meet new things we never understand and so we do in dreams, things happen and we don’t understand why–
So can’t we assume that both worlds-- in it’s similarities and differences, could both be equally as important?
Our sleep lets our waking world’s logics away, and into our dream worlds we go… so we can get a bit of rest from it all-- If we lived life constantly, we’d all be very tired, if not physically, emotionally and mentally.
And if we dreamed all the time, we’d all be either very bored-- panicked, or clueless to life…
So one can’t exist without the other-- Dreams take some stress away during the night, regardless of remembering them or not…(mostly)… Without waking life we’d never eat, without dreams we could very possibly be too emotionally stressed to continue–
So can’t it stand to reason, that wl should not be more important than dreaming life, and dreaming life no more important than waking? So obsession in either would be very bad…
Ahh-- I make too little sense! I apologize for not reading before if this was said! ><
Sorry sorry…
Tiredly yours…
~Talon
Dorthy wants to return to reality its not at all an example its very contradictory because by saying there is no place like home your saying reality is better implying no reason for being obsessed with fantasy.
What about people who get lost in books for hours? How is that different from LDing? And people can improve who they are in LDs.