Religion. Delusion or Empowerment?

I am strongly reminded by a passage in one of Kurt Vonnegut’s works of fiction. As I am not an encyclopedia, I must paraphrase:

An Alien visiting from another planet took it upon himself to figure out just what was wrong with Earth’s most popular religion; Christianity. He came to the conclusion that upon Jesus’ hanging, readers were obliged to think, at least on some level, “They sure picked the wrong person to hang”. This was inherently flawed in that it suggested there was a RIGHT person to hang.

The alien proceeded to re-write the bible making the proper adjustments, and the world largely lived happily ever after.

I apologize if anyone was offended by that blasphemy, but I believe it illustrates a relevant point. Although as Bruno so eloquently puts it, we cannot pinpoint such things as relevance.

However, Bruno, I think you made a small mistake. Atheism is not a faith in no god. It is a faith in no theology. The literal translation is without religion. Although the term has certainly been diluted.

I believe a better term for Muzzius would be ‘weak athiesm’, since he seems to believe in at least some of science.

And although your are right, strong athiest is a faith in the non-existance of god, weak athiesm is the assumption that we should believe what makes sense to us. This means science.

More in line with the original question; Most of what humans believe is delusion. Most people fail to realise that nothing we sense, by whatever manner, can be completely trusted. We could be hallucinating, we could be decieved, and more importantly there’s the possibility that we’re completely detached; that our minds exist but that everything around us, our reality, is a figment of our imagination. (See Philosophical basis of The Matrix)

Nihilism of more like denying everything for the time being, just until you cease to exist/are able to verify your reality. At least, this is my take. A blanket term seldom works properly, since people are so often so different.

On my computer(currently broken) I have a link to a wonderful article concerning the evolution of morality as separate from religion.

The only purpose served by religion in modern society is to fill a gap. I have never known an athiest who did not wish for something to answer their questions about the universe. And indeed, religion is the ultimate answer for it’s subscribers. People are angered by the argument that “God did it”, but this is the whole basis of religion, that God did indeed “do it”.

So, in my opinion, it is most likely delusion. However it is also empowerment in that it gives one the power to be happy. The French philosopher Bruno mentioned is a wonderful example.

In the dark ages, religion was used as a weapon, because of it’s flaws. But in this age, science has forced most people to rethink their religion, at least to he point of reading the spirit, not the letter, of the Good Book.

Disclaimer: Capitalization of words such as “God”, “Jesus”, and “Good Book” are signs of respect for english grammar, not signs of personal belief.

Hello

No, the literal translation is “godless”. (ἀ= a = “without”, and θεος = theos = “god”)

One of the few words from an ancient language that hasn’t been raped. Yet.

Let’s look at this objectively.

I believe that life is a dream. Not just that it is like a dream, but it is a dream, maintained by our mind’s cohesively thinking that it has some value or truth outside of it’s mere experience, which in reality it does not. After death (if one chooses that path) we will experience whatever the next state is of our current subject matter we are experiencing. In fact, death doesn’t really have much meaning at all.

For example, my friend is a materialist. He thinks that everything is rooted in a physical cause. When he dies, he believes that he will cease to exist.

If I’m right, I will go on to experience more states of consciousness, and he will experience non-existence. More accurately, he will experience a dream of not existing. If he’s right, we will both cease to exist.

Given that neither of these belief systems are likely to be scientifically proven in my projected lifetime, does it even matter if I’m deluding myself when the main opposing theory offers nothing to look forward to? I might as well hang in the hat now, and call it a day. And what if I’m right all along? Switching beliefs will not only limit my mindset, but my experience as well.

So I’ve created a set of ideas which make sense to me. But is that so bad? How is that worse than jumping on a bandwagon for the nearest religion which promises salvation or destruction?

I don’t need a savior. Jesus did what he did to show us that there are other ways of living, other states of being. He knows that, God knows that. Why would I want to limit myself to what someone else says about Jesus, when I can create my own interpretation? And why should I believe in scientific materialism when I can draw my own conclusions about matter and the universe?

Given that none of this stuff will ever be proven, how is my belief any less relevant than any other crackpot theory? Because less people believe in it? Because it’s not backed by a PhD?

Just because some seemingly intelligent person says something doesn’t make it smart. Just because some authority has a rule doesn’t make it moral. Just because a lot of people believe something doesn’t make it right. Just because someone has a religion doesn’t make them spiritual.

Heeey :eh: No need to be aggressive! :neutral:

I don’t get it :tongue:

As a student of Ancient Greek and an English teacher, I must disagree. :razz: As Antonio said, the word atheism traces back to ἄθεος, which specifically means “no God,” and the meaning hasn’t changed ever since.

Concerning my post, I see no mistake, as even the modern distinction between “weak atheism” (or, “lack of theism” — do not mistake “theism” for “theology”) and “strong atheism” (or, “belief in no God”) doesn’t change anything about my conjectures: what I said applies to either.

Believing in science has nothing to do with how atheistic you are: science doesn’t have any god of its own, but doesn’t affirm the lack thereof either, so it doesn’t bear any relevant connection with atheism. Also, I still don’t see how (a) being an atheist and (b) believing in science are compatible with (c) being a nihilist. It’s just plain contradictory.

Indeed it is your take. :eh: And a very personal one. This term conveys very specific meaning, and evokes a strong, radical attitude: nihilism means total rejection of the human structures and institutes; it means crying for (true) freedom of thought in detriment of any kind of stability.

How so? I don’t see religion having one homogeneous social function. It’s like literature: it has no function or sense socially: it can only, in my opinion, develop any kind of sense or any use individually.

:wave:

But as it happens, I fail to see how exactly is science any different from what you described.

And the implications of what you are saying is that is has no sense. Objective meaning is the object of science, purpose is the object of religion, and essential value has been the object of philosophy. If you believe the the world not to have any of these, you’re implying you deny philosophy, religion and science. Which brings us back to me having a hard time wondering how exactly you couple this with self–proclaimed scientific atheism.

I think exactly the same! :content: I myself dismiss the rigour of science, for as far as I’m concerned it makes science no better than religion in telling us the "what"s and the "why"s. I do think science might be useful at times telling us the "how"s, though, but it’s only there to be used pragmatically; to me, giving sense to life through science (or through religion even) without giving it at least a second thought is just missing a big point.

Perhaps the world doesn’t need to make sense. Perhaps it doesn’t make sense indeed. Above all, perhaps we should not try to fill everything we know of meaning and use. Like I said above, concerning religion and literature, not everything has to make sense socially: and perhaps, things should not always make sense individually either, like in that short story from Cortázar:

In plain English: “To fight against pragmatism and the horrible tendency of attributing useful ends, the oldest of my cousins proposed the routine of pulling away a good hair, tying it a knot right in the centre and letting it fall suavely down the bathroom sink.”

It doesn’t really matter what is true or not. It’s different for everyone. Religion has helped MANY people in history. Sure it has brought pain and suffering to millions through war, conflict, and ignorance. But we all believe in different things. I mean look at this post, you guys are going at it like dogs. I would just stick to my beliefs and not judge others. Thats what causes all of the problems.

I wholeheartedly agree that one can act moral without being threatened through religion. I was attempting to pose a hypothetical question.

That was the nagging detail that was making me doubt my Atheism. But then, making beliefs out of nowhere to empower myself just because they will not outright harm me seems a bit selfish. If our beliefs don’t really matter in the long run, then why should I choose a limiting one over an empowering one?

Alright…

Last I checked, Genocide and ignorance mattered. :open_mouth:

Hey! At least it’s getting us all to think, right? :wink:

Quote: lat time i checked murder and genocide mattered. :open_mouth:

I didnt mean it that way. I didnt want it to seem like it didnt matter. I wanted to show how stupid ignorance was through sarcasm.

Sarcasm and the Internet can never seem to get along.

Good point nonetheless, 7fold.

lol, yeah thanks :smile:

I think that Christianity is a delusion, and basically any proof of God that Christians have is a rationalization. Also “God’s will” is a rationalization. For example you hear a Christian say, “God will protect me, but if I die today, then I know it was His will, and I will go to heaven!” Rationalization. “God will heal this woman if we ask him to, but if it’s His will, she’ll die.” Wow, rationalization. Also, prayer does absolutely nothing. And why doesn’t God heal amputees? Any Christian that reads this ask me anything, I’m sure I can come up with an answer that makes a lot more sense than yours, and I’ll probably even have actual proof for it!

But is that so bad? And if it’s a bad thing to be interested in yourself, who are you supposed to be helping? God? Your family? Your friends? Is denying your own desire and preservation really so noble?

Self preseveration is the number one instinct of all known lifeforms on this planet. To not be selfish seems foolish, when the world is viewed from this perspective.

Everything is relative. What I see in the world is not what others see. To many, I seem like a fool. To me, they seem like a fool. The only real truth is that we are all fools, doing foolish things in order to grow and learn.

So then, there is no harm in, say, habitually affirming to myself that there is an afterlife and that death is not the end? Once I have taken to that belief, I can see no negative consequences. I would have no reason to fear death. I could seek comfort in the notion that I would meet with deceased friends upon my passing.

This seems like a short step from insanity, but there are no qualitative downsides to taking these beliefs. This is bugging the hell out of me.

And about being a hypocrite: I think that humans can take on any belief of their choosing given enough effort. Hence, how people can be converted to other religions/belief systems.

Why would you fear death anyway? If you believe it is inevitable, why worry about it? It is going to happen anyway, so just accept it.

Your fear is not grounded in a logical basis. My previous statement, however, is. In fact, your fear of death is just as absurd as my belief in the afterlife. We are not so different, you and I, as both of our beliefs are equally inane.

Also, there is a big difference in believing in something because of fear of something else, versus believing in something because you honestly want to. Fear is never a reason to believe anything. Ever.

Don’t mistake self-belief for delusion. Neither mistake quirky beliefs with lack of logic. Everyone is insane, they just haven’t realized it yet.

Well now, I fear death a little, because I am sad that I will never be able to experience things again. It’s a fear of the unknown, and that’s perfectly normal to have.

Then your fear of death is also equally illogical. If death by definition can’t be known (because you don’t believe anyone has an experience after death) then there’s no reason to fear it, as you have nothing to lose after it.

On a related note, if death is inevitable, then there’s no reason to be sad now for something that will undoubtably happen later. Why not give up your fear and sadness of death, and replace them with excitement for the activies you are engaged in today? That is the only logical, non-insane way to conduct life.

I may not ‘lose’ anything when I die, but I certainly don’t think I will have any more experiences. It’s not so much a fear of death that I possess, but a sadness that I won’t live forever. Yes, that’s it. I’m not afraid of anything after death, but just the fact that I won’t get to discover and experience new things. I don’t by any means dwell over the sadness I have for the thought that I will lose life one day, but it’s hard to push out.

Then let me ask you this. Do you think the universe is infinite?

Because if you don’t, then immortality won’t solve your your dilemma, it will only delay you until you’ve experienced everything there is in the universe, in which case you’d then have nothing new for the rest of your immortal existence.

And in the case that the universe is infinite, who’s to say there’s no experience after death? After all, that’s a lot of universe and a lot of stuff you have yet to encounter. It would be rather presumptuous to assume that there’s nothing after death when there’s yet an entire, infinite universe for you to explore.

I have no idea… and really no opinion.

It would be - but equally presumptuous to assume that there is. Why should the universe being infinite correlate to the existence of experiences after we die and rot in the ground? Just because there’s a lot to explore doesn’t mean we are entitles to discovering it.

My opinions on this sort of thing are very fluid, at the moment. I’m not very strongly assuming anything - just a current personal belief.