Rights of dream characters?

Quest for Lucidity
85

Your premis is correct, but, the thought is doing something evil against something that is nonexistant, like a rock, a book, a cup, a door, etc. So, if you are correct then you will be judged for thinking badly of a rock! So what your saying is that if you decide to kill a NON-EXISTANT person, it is immoral to think of killing NON-EXISTANT objects. Now, here is the fine line Mr Clarkkent:

If you start thinking about oh, it must be fun kill the REAL, president, then that is an immoral thought. But, if you think it would be fun to kill the FAKE president, there is nothing wrong, because you cannot kill something that does not exist.

86

oneiromancer

Yes. I received your telepathic message LOL :grin:

clark kent

Those who throw rocks should not live in glass houses. :wink:

We are never going to agree on this so, I think it is time to say that we agree to disagree.

ErikW

Actually it is not correct at all. Think about it. A door or a rock exists for real. But DC and everything else in your dreams does not exist at all. They are just images in your mind. If you decide you want to do something naughty in your LD it’s ok. It may even be beneficial to explore the different aspects of your self. Throwing a good tantrum now and then can even be a release leaving you feeling as if a weight has been lifted off you. Now I have always said that you should not do this all the time in your LD’s. Not because It’s bad or that you will do yourself harm but there are just so many awesome things to do in a LD. If you spend every LD exploring your dark side then you will miss out on so many other things.

Enjoy your LD ‘s and keep them balanced :yinyang:

87

Yep. We can agree to disagree. No problem…

88

if i may continue to be argumentative clears his throat

i disagree… to an extent

if i may offer an analogy (i hope this analogy works, but it’s kinda late so my brain isn’t at 100%)

i do martial arts and there are few things more annoying than watching a beginner trying to do a move and stopping after every step (envision a move with 8 steps) and saying "ok, my hand goes where ??? "

i can’t teach you how to do a move if you are preoccupied with doing the move perfectly (well… maybe i can, but chances are, i’ll most likely kill myself or you before we get there) but when i have somebody who does a move (or an approximation of it) that gives me something i can work with. because the person has ALLOWED himself to make a mistake, i can say “ok your hand goes here, not there” “your foot steps here, not there” i can pick individual aspects of the 8 step move and give corrections until they get all 8 of them right or close enough and i tell you from personal experience, those who learn the fastest in the martial arts are those who let themselves make mistakes

the same is true for life… now i’m not saying that you should go out and make every conceivable mistake because that’s stupid, but i’d also argue that it’s self-defeating to try to be perfect when you are not. people make mistakes, i don’t think anybody is going to argue with me on that. but those who let themselves make mistakes… let themselves be imperfect will more quickly arrive at perfection or something closer to it than stopping on every step in a move with 8 of them to stop and say "my hand goes where again ??? "

make a mistake, a mistake can be corrected no problem… how do you correct vacillation ??? how do you correct hesitation ??? how do you correct indecisiveness ??? how can somone correct what you’re doing, if you’re not DOING anything ??? how can you correct yourself ??? if you won’t let yourself be imperfect, how can you arrive at perfection ???

89

God aspires for us to be perfect like Jesus, and we have God’s help for this (Holy Spirit, etc).
In practical terms: I’m not saying one will not make mistakes and learn from them (forgiveness helps in that area too). But we should aspire to do better / improve. If you don’t care to improve, like you’re saying, you won’t arrive at any real perfection soon…sorry!

90

The funniest thing is that when I first read this, I had no clue what you were talking about.

Maybe I should stop reading so much of the forums?

91

Ok, now a dream character in my belief is not a human being. And, if you assume that a dream character is not a human being, then I CAN PROVE THAT DREAM CHARACTERS DO NOT HAVE ANY RIGHTS!!! :cool:

Here is proof that dream characters do not have rights based on the assumption that dream characters are not human beings.

These definitins are from “The Oxford American College Dictionary”.
The first part of my proof just lays down the definition, and the second part uses a valid argument with the definition to say that dream characters are not real (assuming that dream characters are human biengs).

Now these “rights” we talk about is this defition of the word “right”: A moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way.

Now, what is an entitlement?

entitlement definition: The fact of having a right to something. the amount to which a person has a right.

Now what does having mean?

have definition: possess, own or hold

So what does posses, own, and hold mean?

posses definition: have as belonging to one; own;
own definition: used with a possessive to emphasize that someone or somthing belong or relates to the person mentioned.
hold definition: contain or be capable of caontainting (a specified amount).
Another relavent hold definition is: have in one’s possesion.

Now, what is contain mean?

contain: have or hold (someone or something).

Also, I must define one(the pronoun, not the noun), someone, and something…

one def #1: referring to a person or thing previously mentioned. used as previously mentioned or easily identified.
one def #2: a person of a specific kind. a person who is remakable in some way
one def #3: used to refer to any person as representing people in general. referring to the speaker as representing preople in general
someone definition: an unkown or unspecified person
somethign definition: a thing that is unspecified or unknown

Now, lets define a thing and a person…

person: a human being regarded as an individual.
thing: an object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to.

What is an object?

object definition: a material thing that can be seen and touched.

Lastly, what is does the material adjective mean?

material def: denoting or consisting of physical objects rather than the mind or spirit.

Ok this part is my proof:

Premise #1: a dream character is not a human being or person, or physical object, and is rather from the mind.

A dream character cannot be material because a dream character is not a human being, person, or a physical object, but is rather from the mind;
Therefore, a dream character is not material.

If a dream character is not material, then a dream character cannot be an object;
Therefore, a dream character is not an object.

If a dream character is not an object, a dream character cannot be a thing;
Therefore, a dream character is not a thing.

If a dream character is not a human being, that, a dream character is not a person;
Therfore, a dream character is not a person.

If a dream character is not a person or thing, then a dream character cannot be reffered to as one or be one;
Therefore, a dream character cannnot be reffered to as one or be one.

If a dream character is not a person, then a dream character cannot be someone;
Therefore, a dream character cannot be someone.

If a dream character is not a thing, then a dream character cannot be something;
Therefore, a dream character cannot be something.

If a dream character is not one, then a dream character cannot posses anything;
Therefore, a dream character cannot posses anything.

If a dream character is not someone, something, or able to posses something, then a dream character cannot own anything;
Therefore, a dream character cannot own anything.

If a dream character is not someone or something (the contain definition only applies to someone or something),
then a dream character cannot contian anything. Therefore, a dream character cannot contain anything.

If a dream character cannot contain anything and if a dream character is not one,
then a dream character cannot cannot hold anything.
Therfore, a dream character cannot hold anything.

If a dream character is not one, then a dream character cannot possess anything.
Therefore, a dream character cannot possess anything.

If a dream character cannot possess, own or hold, then a dream character cannot have anything.
Therefore, a dream character cannot have anything.

If a dream character cannot have anything, then a dream character cannot have an entitlement.
Therefore, a dream character cannot have an entitlement.

If a dream character cannot have an entitlement, then a dream character cannot have any rights.
Therefore, dream character do not have rights.

There ya go!, proof that dream character do not have rights! I rest my case! :cool:

So, the only way you can say a dream character does not have rights, is when that dream character is not a human biegn. So, it all boils down to wheter or not dream characters are human beigns or not.

92

So DutchThor, if a dream character is not a human being, then they DO NOT have any rights. And now the argument should rather be about whether or not dream characters are humans, but I believe that dream charaters are not human because not one person has proof that dream characters are real after humans have lived for over thousands of years. Im saying that a dream character being human is very very unlikly.

Also, but you wanted to know if its ok to rape, kill or turture dream characters. Well, you cannot rape, kill, or torture dream characters and I can prove it…

The definition of rape is: The crime, commited by a man, of forcing another person to have secual intercourse wih him, esp by a threat or use of violence.

The definition of a person: A human being regared as an individual.

Proof that you cannot rape a dream character:
If a dream character is not a human being, then a dream character is not a person. If a dream character is not a person, then a dream character cannot be raped. Therefroe, if a dream character is not a human being, a dream character cannot be raped. So, assuming a dream character is not a human being, then a dream character cannot be raped.

Proof that you canot kill a dream character:

Kill definition: to deprive of life

relavent life definition #1: the condition that distinguises animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity fo groth reproduction, functinal activity, and contintiual change preceding death.
relavent life definition #2: the existenc of an individual human being or animal

human bieng definition: a man, ownman, or child of the specis Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals but superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

A human being is an animal by the definition of a human being.
If a dream character is not a human being or an animal, then a dream character cannot have life; Therefore, a dream character cannot have life.

If a dream character cannot have life, then a dream character cannot be killed; Therefore, a dream character cannot be killed.

Proof that you cannot torture a dream character:
torture definition: the action or practice of influcint severe pain on somone as a punishment or in order to force them to do or say something.

someone definition: an unkonw or unspecified person.

The definition of a person: A human being regared as an individual.

If a dream character is not a human being, then a dream character is not a person; Therefore, a dream character is not a person.

If a dream character is not a person, then a dream character is not someone; Therefore, a dream character is not someone.

If a dream character is not someone, then a dream character cannot be tortured; Therefore, a dream character cannot be tortured.

In conlusion, dream characters do not have rights and it is imposible to rape, kill, or torture them. :cool:

93

Clark Kent

I’m going to briefly go off topic here for a sec. My apologies in advance. I think that we should try to avoid judgments on this forum especially on hot topics like this. Some people may be on the forum looking for help or advice and I would not want someone to put off by someone making judgement about them. I fully respect your faith (though I may not agree with it), and I fully respect your right to express your views. However, I think

was a little strong.

I have a philosophy of accepting everyone for who they are, no mater what they do. I do not pass judgements on anyone. Just something to think about

Sorry, judgementalnes is just one of my pet peeves.

I am more than willing to debate even argue an issue till the end of time. After all we can all learn from each other even if we don’t agree. Just try to avoid the judgements

sorry again for going off topic

Dutch thor:

Yes they are just puppets in your mind.

94

actually, whats interseting milod789 is that im a Catholic, and in my Catholic belief Jesus teaches us to not judge others. Hehe.
But I think Clarkkent is talking about God judging us, not Clarkkent judging you.

95

Could be. I still just think he could have made his argument without the judgement and it would have been just as effective. I just brought it up because I was trying to help someone(in another thread) who was shrugging with things he did in his dreams. It was very hard because he would not share his dream out of fear of being judged. I just want to avoid that. I would like people to share there experiences openly.

r3m0t

I know what you mean :smile:

96

Ummmm i havent got a a chance to read the entire topic yet cuzi have 2 go. but.

Do you think it would be wrong if i took a DC soul to further my power in a LD?

i am actually serious lol, i did this many years ago.

97

There is one thing even more annoying oneiromancer.

Its when some new guys starts (usually an older “wiser” kind of guy)

Your teacher puts you all in pairs and you end up with this new guy. After starting the exercise new guy start his filosofi on what exactly you were ment to do. This goes on for almost all the exercise and no work gets done.

I think you know what I’m talking about.

98

I think that, in some way, DC’s are alive. They’re, of course, parts of dreamer’s brain, but it’s like software on computer. And we’re also a “software” on our brains. So even if a DC is a part of you, and you can control him, he’s also a separate being. DC’s even have kind of free will - they don’t need to behave as you (consciously) expect.
And as for responsibility for killing/torturing/etc. them - if you aren’t lucid, no problem. You can’t be responsible. In LD’s, it’s harder to tell. I think that RL rules don’t need to apply to dreams. You’re the one that sets the rules.

99

I think dreams are like stress releavers, sometimes I feel like hitting one of my teachers at school in the face, and if I can do that in a dream without getting expelled…then I SHALL DO SO!!!

mystery

100

i think that is a very good argument :happy:

furthermore how would you judge somebody who kills a DC? who where the witnesses? How would you even know if the killer hadn’t told you ? Where would the trial take place? in a dream? IRL?

101

do you think that it will ever get to that state? i mean in my life, my goal is to bring dreaming to teh world, show them lucid dreaming etc, uch like what you are doing, but without a forum :razz: do u think that it would ever get that way? i would hate it if it did, we couldnt even dream anymore.

Mystery00 good point. keep taht up lol

102

it was just an illustration, thought that popped into my mind when responding to pav’s argument, which i still think blows all previous arguments away.

ErikW you have you ever considered going to law school, i think you are attorney talented :grin:

103

i wasnt attacking u Q i was just really worried that is all

104

This topic has become too large, and will be locked. Continue the discussion at the link below:
Rights of Dream Characters? - Part 2