The BIG DreamMaker topic

Quest for Lucidity
29

That is really the problem is there is not a lot of feed back from people. So far noone has posted any results with the rem dreamer which I think is about $120.00 and still over priced as far as I am concerned.

I think they are all a rip off. I am not saying that they do not work they are just outrageously priced. They control the production so they can keep the prices high.

You could get the same effects with a strobe light and timer. You could likely make your own light and sound machines for a 1/4 of what some of these places charge. It just takes some creativity. I knew some one who could not a afford a light machine so he bought some sort of laser light show thing for like $50.00 and used that with his meditation. That and a CD he had his own light and sound machine.

30

phoenelai,

Did you ever get your DreamMaker?

I ordered one from Wellness Tools
on 01/03/05. Wellness Tools CEO Bruce Gelerter took my order and charged my credit card the same day for $210. He assured me the merchandise would ship on 01/10/05.
But I never received it. He would not return my phone calls, emails, and certified letter.

Finally when I contacted store-abuse@yahoo-inc.com, he wrote that he had issued me a credit. But he hadn’t! It was a lie, to get him off he hook with Yahoo.

I looked around on the Net and found out a few things about Mr. Gelerter, a.k.a. “Wellness Tools” and “Electro-Medical Research, LLC.”:

  • Wellness Tools has a rating of UNSATISFACTORY with the Better Business Bureau of Southern Colorado.

  • I found three other customers who also ordered merchandise from Wellness Tools and never received it after payment. Two of them area at p067.ezboard.com/fdiligizerfrm35 … D=56.topic

  • All three describe Gelerter as a “rip-off artist”. That has also been my experience.

  • Gelerter was sued in 1998 by the Dept. of Banking and Finance, Division of Financial Investigations of the State of Florida.

  • He filed for Chapter 13 bankruptcy in 2003.

  • He has been posting to numerous bulletin boards including support groups for dibetics with sale pitches such as this one:

Not only is this a false or unverified medical claim, but it is spam that violates the no commercial notices policy of those bullentin boards.

I hope you are able to recover your money. If you paid by credit card, you should write the credit card company (at the address for billing errors on your statement) requesting a chargeback.

You may wish to file complaints with the Internet Fraud Complaint Center, FTC, FDA, Colorado Attorney General’s Office, Yahoo Stores, and your local law enforcement.

Places to complain in order to let other consumers know are
fraudbureau.com,
baddbusinessbureau.com.

Good luck!

31

ouch :sad:

32

Hi Nick,
Relax, everything is OK. We are first shipping the DreamMakers this coming Wednesday we had delays in manufacturing, but we are ready to roll now.
Thanks,
Bruce Gelerter - CEO

-----Original Message-----
From: nick [mailto:myemailadres]
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 4:18 AM
To: sales@wellnesstools.com
Subject: question about an order

HI, at 22/01 I ordered a dreammaker (order number 24985), I payed trough paypall and the money already came on my visa card, but I still haven’t received it yet …

any suggestions, ideas ? I tried to track the product, but I don’t seem to have an account …

[my information censored]

33

a long time ago someone posted about a similar device you can build for a few dollars, with normal sunglasses and little green and red blinker lights
does anyone have info on this now i was thinking of trying her out

34

Well there are a few threads about building your own goggles. But I think the one you are talking about is here.
I have said this many times before but, Just hook up a strobe light to a timer. You can get the same effect for a lot less money. You don’t get rem detection so you have to do some guessing but, it’s better than getting ripped off, spending a small fortune or investing a great deal of time building your own goggles.

Finally, any light sound machine is not going to automatically give you lucid dreams. You still have to train yourself to recognize the cues the devise gives. Some of those ques are not all that obvious.

orion12

I have been suspicious about this device for some time. Thanks for the links. I had no idea that wellness tools had such a bad rep. I hope you can get your money back. You might also want to complain to your local attorney general also (since they ship them by mail) the US Postal Service might be willing to investigate. Complain to anyone who will listen to you.

35

Thanks, milod789. Sounds like good ideas.

The Wellness Tools FAQ says that they only ship by UPS because the mail is “to unpredictable at times” (to avoid the jurisdiction of the Postal Inspector, no doubt). Do you have any information that they have shipped something by US Mail?

In any case, they are engaging in interstate commerce, which puts them under federal jurisdiction. Guess the Feds are too busy chasing terrorists to worry about one small-time con man.

Maybe I’m naive, but I really didn’t know that people like Bruce Gelerter existed, and were able to function right out in the open. He’s a totally shameless liar and will say anthing. He tells people what they want to hear and knows exactly how to play the system. Every few years he moves to a different state and starts a new “business”.

If anybody has doubts, just Google for his name and see what pops up.

I just looked at the web site, and thought it looked legit. It should have been a tip off that he wouldn’t ship by mail, that the “order tracking link” on his website does not exist, and that his phone number wouldn’t accept a call with caller ID blocked.

Also, I think Stephen LaBerge holds at least one patent on the Novadreamer, which the “Dream Maker” as described on the website would probably infringe.

BTW, no one has ever seen even a picture of the “DreamMaker”. If it exists, why dosen’t Gelerter put a picture of it on his web site?

What really gets me are the spam posts he make to diabetes support groups–they are really apalling. Nothing worse than a quack who sells worthless medical device to sick people.

Nick,

Ask Gelerter to explain why Wellness Tools has a rating of “UNSATISFACTORY” from the Southern Colorado Better Business Bureau (coloradosprings.bbb.org click on “Company Reports” and type in “Wellness Tools”).

It’s a safe bet that for every person who complained to the BBB, there must be five who just said “ah, screw it!” and did a chargeback.

BTW, remember that you only have 60 days from the first statement on which the charge appears to do a chargeback for a “billing error”.
After that, you’re only remedy will be to sue and then try to collect a judgement from Gelerter (who filed Chapter 13 bankruptcy in 2003).

36

here is a working link to the BBB report on wellness tools. For some reason yours did not work.

Also it is worth a shot to complain to the news media like: shame on you or help me Howard. Write to reporters who investigate consumer fraud cases.

37

thanks, I’ll mail him this afternoon !

(btw, I payed through paypall, but how should I ask a chargeback ? :silent:)

38

Orion 12, I did get my Dream Maker.

After some very un-successful testing it’s for sale on Ebay. IMO, facial tension shouldnt be the only matter for detecting REM. I was actually having a lucid on my own wearing the thing, and I had set the brightness to the highest level and audio alarm and there were no triggers. I tested with new batteries as well. If you put the mask on and switch “4” to ON. You should be able keep your eyes close and move them from left to right and it should trigger. Only eye fluttering (where the eye actually opens) it appears to trigger. I don’t want to knock the product, it may work for others just fine. If someone has better results they should post here; this is all my personal opinion!

I dont know much about Bruce. He did answer the phone most times when I called and delivered around the time he said he would, so I felt he was honsest.

My 2 Cents
:help:

39

Please do not confuse Wellnesstools.com and Toolsforwellness.com they are completely different. Toolsforwellness.com doesnt have any negative ratings!

Thanks!
phoen+

40

Well, I dont want to BASH the product, but in my period of testing, I didnt feel that REM was getting detected. The ad says it added Facial Movments (i.e twitching) and REM detection. I turned of switch 4 (this removes the 40min delay) and put the mask on. I kept my eyes close then moved them around and around back and forth and no queue. However, it will pick up “Eye Fluttering”, (open and closing of the eyes very fast). I was actually having a lucid on my own (wearing the mask) and in the dream I saw nothing (no cues that would possibly be lights, and NO sound (I turned on the alarm). All this is in my testing and my opinion and – I am interested in hearing other reviews.

From the AD:
So what we did was to add another way to detect REM. It turns out that Electromyography (EMG) which measures facial tension is another good way to determine REM. By combining these two methods as we have done, increases the reliable detection of REM.

In short, I dont think facial twitching alone will let you know your dreaming. And why did he put ONE sensor when you have TWO eyes? That doesnt make sense either. I ended up selling it because it didnt meet my satisfaction.

Bummer!
:cry:

41

It didnt detect REM sleep at all during the night?

How many times did you try it?

42

About 5 nights I think. Which wasnt long, and other users could have better results.

43

Are you sure it didn’t give any cues? Is it possible to see the amount of cues it has sent after you wake up? I don’t know anything about Dream Maker, but in my experience NovaDreamer detects REM well, and gives cues, but I only know that because it remembers the amount of cues and you can look it up in the morning. And there have been a lot of cues but I just didn’t notice it in my dreams. Lucidity Institute explicitely says one must train himself to recognize the cues, because they often appear in your dreams in a very distorted form. I guess this is also true for Dream Maker. I hope the company that sells Dream Maker warn about this in the manuals etc? BTW I don’t really get what they gain by adding measuring facial tension, the existing method of detecting REM as used by NovaDreamer works well in my experience.

44

Well I could have tested this longer, but the thing that did it for me was I also set the Alarm to trigger as well. I was having a lucid and was looking for the lights in someway shape or form but nothing. I wasnt hearing any alarm either. I woke up instantly and the mask was quiet as a whistle. I think he should have used the like the Nova Dreamer. I dont think the facial tension is a good way of measuring either.

:eek:

45

electromyography doesn’t necessarily mean face twitching… the medical tests involve pinning needles into the muscle and observing the electricity INSIDE the muscle… i don’t think you’d have needles stuck in your face as you seep, so don’t trust this extra feature of the mask… i might be a non-believer, but it looks to me like big words for nothing… you may have electrodes on the face, but those would measure electricity across the skin, so it’s not EMG… it’s electrodermal (which is different, but may also work) or you may have some sort of “flexibility” measuring device that measures how much the mask moves during sleep, but this is useless since the mask could move for other reasons than muscle activity… yeah, i don’t see how you could have this on a mask, it doesn’t make much sense. So unless it’s electrodermal then I don’t think the mask has the extra feature… and if it IS electrodermal, i’d be worried… how can someone produce a mask that claims to use a medical monitoring method and not know how it works or even the right terminology…

as for the eye movement, it would seem the sensor isn’t properly aligned to your eye… you can probably try to play around with the intensity of IR (if you have the option) but other than that there’s not much you can do (unless you start moving the sensors around). this is what happened with my Kvasar, it picked up eye fluttering very well (even the number of flutters) but not eye movement… you can try playing with the way you put the mask on, but other than that there’s not much you can do…

i’m sorry about the negativity in the post, but i really REALLY don’t trust that guy… there’s no pictures, no mentioning of the product on the lucidity page… yeah… not so sure… it’s probably some low-end clone.

you might want to get your money back if possible… if not, dump it on e-bay and either buy a nova dreamer (which at least we KNOW is half decent from all these people owning one) or just wait for new products to be made by trustworthy people.

46

Wow, thanks for that info. I already sold it on Ebay and got my money back as well. I’m already waiting on my Luma 10 to show up. This of course is a regular mind machine, but I’m excited to do some great chill sessions. It uses the LightWeave technology where the lights are always on, smooth transitions. With your eyes closed, I hear it almost produces the ganzfeld effect and the patterns are amazing. I’ll keep the board posted to see how I like it.

:peek:

47

My name is Bruce Gelerter I designed DreamMaker and would like to share and answer questions as to the design considerations on detection of REM and how many variables that need to be balanced.

Also to answer any questions and get suggestions.
I really want this to be an advance in technology which I believe it is and will be better with feedback from the LD community.

One change that was suggested was to use different color LEDs instead of just red because when doing a reality check you know if you look left it’s Blue for example and then right might be green. I think it will help prevent accomodation where it won’t show up in your dreams after awhile.

48

First of all, I’d like to comment on how great this is to have someone actually listening to the community for actual imput on their product. Communicating actively with the consumer base is probably the most productive thing you can do when designing a product.

I have to ask though (with full respect) - What makes this little peice of hardware SO EXPENSIVE? I’ve seen an online tutorial where you can literally make your own one of these out of a printer cable, some leds, and a pair of sunglasses.

If these were something like 50-100 bucks a peice I’m sure they would sell amazingly fast (ultimately being cost affective). Is there a real reason for the outrageos price? I myself would consider atleast trying it if they were atleast reasonably priced.