[mod]It started to be a long off-topic discussion so I splitted it from the “Do you ever wish…” topic[/mod]
[color=darkblue]You can only LD during REM periods. REM periods are our dreams. As for not being able to lengthen then, many have in fact succeeded in lengthening their dream periods by rubbing hands together, “spinning” etc. Leberge talked extensively on such subjects…[/color]
[color=darkblue]I’m not sure I believe that article. Even if it were possible it is no doubt rare and extremely unlikely.
REM doesn’t just describe the eye movements, it relates also to the brains activity during these movements. Without this specific brain activity, dreaming and hence LD is impossible. [/color]
You don’t have to believe it if you don’t want 
- I was just pointing it out in case you hadn’t seen it…
It has been observed by scientists since the 70’s that dreams could occur in n-REM sleep. It stayed mainly unnoticed because people can hardly remember their dreams when awoken from a NREM phase. But it has been clearly proven in the last years and it’s now widely admitted. You just have to google “NREM dreams” and you’ll find thousands of serious articles and scientific reports. Now it seems that NREM dreams are different from REM dreams. As an example, Charles Tart when he was working with Robert Monroe recorded an important alpha wave activity, which could be compared to stage 1 of sleep. Many WILD’ers have been recorded in stage 1 and 2, that is NREM sleep phases.
[color=darkblue]Ok, I believe you… But do you understand what I am saying about the brain activity? The eye movement is a visible sign of the fact that a particular persons brain is now in a dreaming state.
If they don’t have the rapid eye, but have the same brain activity in NREM, then it is basically the same thing isn’t it?
The rapid eye movement is only a cue to what the brain is really doing underneath. If some people dream but just don’t move their eyes, then big deal! The brain is still in the same state otherwise it WOULD be impossible to dream…[/color]
You seem to assume that only eyes movements distinguish REM from NREM sleep. It’s not exact. Observations about dreaming/LD’ing and sleep phases are made not only with an EOG (electro-oculograph) which measures the movement of the eyes, but also with an EEG (electro-encephalograph) which measures the brain waves. People have not the same brain activity during NREM sleep and REM sleep and it’s also upon this basis (brain waves) that the 4 different NREM sleep phases and REM sleep are classified.
So I wouldn’t say like you do that “the eye movement is a visible sign of the fact that a particular persons brain is now in a dreaming state”, it seems to me we can just say “the eye movement is a visible sign of the fact that a particular persons brain is now in REM sleep… by definition”. What you say is true cause if you have REM, you’re in REM sleep thus you dream. But it may lead to a mistake cause if you dream in a NREM phase, you’re likely not to have eye movements.
Note that Sleep walking and sleep talking and also Nightterrors occur during Stage4 sleep. Wich is delta sleep.
If there was nothing much going on in the brain, there wouldn’t be much walking or talking or screaming in terror.
I think nREM sleep may hold many mysteries. Nevertheless, Lucid dreaming in those states should probably prove more difficult.
I think NREM is simply REM without the rapid eye. The brains activity is the same…
It isn’t, it’s exactly because of that that dreams are more vivid during REM—it’s the moment in the sleep cycle in which you, although asleep, have your brain activity the most similar to when you’re awake (which is why some people call REM the “paradoxical sleep”). During nREM sleep, your brain activity is very different from REM.
I read something in a science mag about Stage 4 sleep I believe it was that even though the differend areas in the brain are active, they don’t communicate with each other. You can imagine what would happen with consciousness when the different brain centers don’t communicate. If consciouness exists in one area, the experience should be focused, but limited. Like maybe the whole dream is only images, or only sound, or language. That’s only speculation though.
krakatoa, a good example of brain parts not communicating with each other is auditory HH. When the prefrontal cortex parts don’t communicate with the other parts, the thoughts your brain produces are no more considered yours, but external voices or sounds, cause prefrontal cortex deals with personnality and it doesn’t work any more. 
Indeed. Or like when I see HI and I move my arm and know that I didn’t try to move my arm. But it’s not a twich, it’s like a real movement, only, “involontary” although I though about moving my arm, but didn’t try to. It did on it’s own.
I believe it’s even stranger in Delta sleep.
I’m glad this hasn’t been beaten into the ground too hard yet but I also want to make a point here.
REM sleep eye movements are indicative of dreaming.
Non-REM dreaming is proven by WILD non-REMers.
It’s my theory that REM is the layman’s way to access dreams, due to the color and depth perception created by the REM. I notice that when I attempt to meditate that I involuntarily start to move my eyes, and this sometimes increases the visuals.
So the other side to that would be that WILDers have very good visualization and access dream states without REM movement. WILD takes immense focus and a clarity of “sight”. It’s like bypassing the REM cycle. That’s not to say that some WILDers do not have REM.
I think the brainwave analysis and other scientific analyses are important in making the case here as well but I believe there is some correlation to the ease of dreaming due to the REM.
