Do OBEs exist? (Discussion)

Quest for Lucidity General Lucidness
41

Yeah I read all that stuff a long time ago.
I really disagree to what dB_FTS because opinion can change the mind of many people… Like religion etc… (oh I said the word :meh: ) and BTW I converted somebody on this forum just with my opinion so yeah it’s a powerful tool, it’s just that many of us don’t know how to use it .
I won’t write again on this topic because I spoke too much and I don’t have the monopole of talking and opinion.

I will just say that Jung was right… again.
Collective unconscious. What a beautiful thing. It can destroy a country or educate the world.
I used some definition to conduce you to say words that I wanted you to say :" our astral bodies live out on different planes on their own accord. " What you said is the perfect definition of : ghost.

“Ghost has NOTHING to do with AP or OBE !” you’ll say. Nope not for Jung mein freund. Ghost is an element of our Collective unconscious, it’s universal. Everybody has thought about it even the cro-magnon guy. It’s like the dragon who spread some flames toward him. The dragon is the symbol of our heroism and the ghost is (I think) the symbol of the void, humans hate the void.
We can prove that dragons don’t exist because nobody have saw them (and with satellite I’ll let you imagine) but we can’t prove that ghosts don’t exist because they’re invisible, lucky uh ?
AP and OBE are the same thing, they are here to fill the void. And unconsciously it approximates the idea of ​​ghosts.

So I will end this by saying that if you have some trouble with AP (or OBE call it whatever you want (and BTW it’s not because we name something that we know how it works like the inertia principle, nobody can explain the principle but we know that it exists. There is not a single accepted theory that explains the source of inertia. We just need to know the point of view, like OBE it must (99% I like English) be just dreams not astral projection or fantasy stuff like that)) Hmm big parenthesis … Well so if you have some trouble with AP you know who to call: GHOSTBUSTER !

PS: I will stay around this topic to look if someone have done some experiences but I won’t say a word.

Disclaimer: I do not want to sound rude, unfriendly, nasty, rude, stupid etc… And to people who’ll say that I don’t respect other’s opinions, oh check what I only said: opinion, Opinions Vs Opinions is fair enough.

42

Dagto, I can’t help but feel like you are being a bit condescending. I said I don’t believe our astral bodies live on different planes on their own accord. But I admit, you are rather confusing. First you say they don’t exist and now it appears you are saying they do. What you refer to as ghost is not what Carl Jung’s collective unconscious theory was about. While Jung linked it to Freud’s idea of how we cope, Jung was more talking about the way people learn and the way we have inherent traits.

43

True.

44

The way ive learned to see it is, OBE and AP is more or less the same, just 2 diffrent terms for the same thing, however there sure is a distinct diffrence betwen LD and OBE.

And for OBE/AP to be dangerous, No, its not for the simple fact that Youve gota physical body and another entity dont. And then the laws someone mentioned comes in play. And then that as you learn in LD, Mind over matter.

As long as your the one in control nothing can do anything to you, cause youll either whoop its ass to oblivion or just ignore the attempts. I have a very very rooted belief that, IF anything and I mean anything can do me any harm, I can do just as much harm if not 10 thousand times more and worse. I dont battle much nor do I come across things that do want to battle. Im not either looking for a battle. Ive had demon dreams where they are my pals and just show me around in a sort of weird sureal world. Where humor comes in from mindcreations that truely look horrifying, but just disregarding that fact and not judge somone by their skin. But should they show hostility towards me then thats their choice. (Now I know this is not happening to me only and that it can be rather regular but just the experience of it has taught me alot about judgement and perception of things.)

Ive had OBE, Ive choosen to not do it, For one has to learn the basics first, and LDing is a perfect playground for that to prepare for OBE, and then also while LDing I dig into my subconcious, I prefer the “shadow work” as Jung coined it to be of more interest to me than playing around. To first get to know about myself has proportionally aswell increased what I am able to do in a Lucid without any reall problems or trial and error. Sure ive had it, but by getting to know my subconcious and digging into it. Things just seem to come naturally.

Thats just my side of the coin with endless sides.

“There are no connections, nothing is connected to anything”

45

In the coming weeks, I will try both the poker card test and the note test. I can’t OBE at will so it will be a few weeks.

To continue the discussion, though…

Of OBEs, regardless of whether the consciousness really leaves the body or not, we can say this about them:

(1) OBEs are psychologically real experiences, composed of feelings, thoughts, and emotions.

(2) The typical OBE is narratively different from the typical LD.

The typical OBE report begins with the sensation (actual or not) of leaving the physical body. The typical LD report begins when a person realizes that they are dreaming while they are dreaming (understanding that they are bodily asleep–and, until the moment of lucidity, mentally incoherent). Of course, a person can enter a lucid dream from a waking state–as with the OBE–but the sensation of leaving the body isn’t necessarily a part of that process.

(3) OBEs are experientially different from LDs.

OBEs are distinguished from LDs by several differences of experience. In the majority of OBEs, a person floats, flies or levitates by default. LDs often require effort to fly, and in the majority of them a type of “gravity” is present. Also, generally, a person experiences himself as transparent or even glowing during an OBE–which is not usually the case with LDs. A third difference (personal experience here) is that speech is difficult in the near OBE environment, as if you have no vocal chords. Usually, speaking in the LD environment is easy.

(4) OBEs are influenced by our physiology.

How could it be otherwise? Our mind affects our body; our body affects our mind. Whether OBEs can demonstrate an extra dimension to consciousness, or not, it’s clear that our physiology affects both our ability to have OBEs and influences the content of OBEs themselves–just as with dreams.

(5) OBEs are influenced by our psychodynamics.

As our mood, expectations and beliefs influence us in every day life, and influence our dreams, so too do they influence the out-of-body experience. How could it be otherwise? No special screen seems to exist that withholds the influence of our psychology, or our physiology, from the OBE.

46

DONE! haha There can now be no more direct proof that this phenomenon, however it occurs, whatever it is, however you name it exists. I already had direct proof before for me, now I can share to the rest, well… can I? I can’t say anymore, trust it or not, I can tell from a neutral standpoint I would have no apparent reason to fake it, I wouldn’t gain anything from it, and at any rate this is a a great indication for you if not direct evidence.

Here goes the experiment, it was not done precisely as said by dagto but judge for yourself for what I have to say:

I told my brother to draw or write something, anything, that would seem “improbable” on a small piece of paper. Well he made multiple of these things and in a certain paper he just made a very stylistic logo of some word “bothes” in english, that he now says came to his mind “randomly” . Until I OBEed I didn’t know what he wrote/draw in that, however we agreed to place it “normally” ( and he placed it actually below a mess of items he made in the shelf) and not upside down since I can never raise my mental self and move items in OBE, I can only move my head and hands/feet, only once I managed to move my whole body.

I changed a bit the position of my bed so I could face the shelf in OBEs. I never looked at the paper for days till because of sensory deprivation from the heat and closed doors/windows that resulted in this, I had an OBE - where I only managed to move my head and hands/feet as nearly always. He had changed the position of items ( most items however can clearly be seen in their positions if awake) in the shelf and in a previous OBE I leaned my head towards the shelf without too much freedom (and the position I slept didn’t allow me to see the hidden items) and saw the changed positions of them at that time only( either placed on a strange spot or placed strangely - for instance upside down) ( that I ofc could see when awake aswell), the autoscopy was there aswell as the invisible hand, and I woke at a different spot than I was inside the OBE feeling very heavy at that specific moment.

Atop of that I had told my brother to place in that mess, without being very clear different items between the other known ones, for instance papers underneath items as we agreed (having drawn and written things on them, I only managed to saw the “bothes” almost wholly from my POV and certain other things, in a following OBE where I caused SD on myself), toys inside car miniatures ( did it by himself), and he filled a cylinder with “collectible” candy boxes (same), all these observable only closely. I saw all three and read almost the whole logo I hadn’t before. Now I don’t know what can be more clear than that :razz:

47

How to OBE almost at will:

What you perceive as a “falling asleep” singular state is actually composed of different sub-states that are controllable or semi controllable, the knowledge ( shown to me through general emotional intelligence) of it ( the “EI” of it) can make you control these states, you have to simply not only defocus but defocus from defocusing. What I mean by that is that you should not put yourself in a process of defocusing from problems of the external world ( so called “meditation”) but rather in a non-process of defocusing from defocusing from problems of the external world. Do not analyze just do it.

There are in fact 4 ( as perceived by me) states of falling asleep

There is the state that sleeps engulfs you by

1)20% speed

2)40% speed

3)60% speed

4)80% speed

5) Hypnagogic jolt

=================

1) Starting to fall asleep - Controllable thoughts, having releaxed and being clear headed in the end, hands start to sleep. You can decide by having the EI of it, to fall out of it or continue ( also depending on how sleepy you feel) on the 2nd

2) Having relaxed and being clear headed permanently - Head starts to fall asleep, controllable to semi controllable thoughts, thoughts can start forming by themselves,can make you jump at occasions the 3rd state. Better control of reaching the next states at a better speed than the previous state. Hands can fall completely asleep, feet start to fall asleep.

3)Mostly automatic thoughts, even easier to let sleep engulf all the body except the head ( must retain head wakefulness till stage 5).

4)Hallucinatory State - by having the EI of it you can fall out of it easier than before, let it engulf you without resisting, hallucinations of various types can appear by the end.

5)Hypnagogic state to Hypnagogic jolt - where the exploding head syndrome can occur, and the vibrations, let it control you instead of controlling it. It is here that you enter OBE when the head falls “asleep” last, you retain wakefulness when asleep.

6)Having entered OBE, nothing can harm you remember, don’t let entusiasm kill it.

48

You seem to not understand at all what I said previously …
Do NOT quote my name and make a reference of me if you don’t succeed to do what you were suppose to do in order to prove that OBE does exist.

Now, your experiment; I don’t get what you succeeded.
“most items however can clearly be seen in their positions if awake”
“I saw all three and read almost the whole logo I hadn’t before”

I think that I can’t understand because I’m french and I don’t know perfectly the language but you are saying that you saw the items which can be seen when you are awake ?

And did you wrote what you saw before you really look the items. Because mind can be tricky it can alter many times, that’s why I said do it with cards and write what you saw before verify it. Now I don’t know what can be more clear than that :tongue:

49

Actually OBE can be turned to an AP, here

esotericonline.net/docs/library/Astral%20Projection/Robert%20Bruce%20-%20Ma stering%20Astral%20Projection.pdf

it explains all in detail, it has been proven to be true up to that point I am now.

Also check on Hinduism and Buddhism, they explain in detail every single thing concerning these matters, Dream yoga ( LDs), Kundalini Yoga( 3rd eye opening) and so on.

In order to do an easier WILD or OBE, focus ( just search how) on the existant pineal gland ( “3rd eye”) inbetween your eyebrows, just feel it and think that images form there ( they actually are even now that you see this but you seem to control that way the release(?) of the DMT or/and Melatonin, or/and Serotonin, so images when awake or not become cleared, to the point that you can enter them ( dream) )

50

OBE’s, as a phenomena do exist, since it is technically a dream. However, you don’t leave your body, since there is nothing to leave your body with. Therefore, the concept of leaving your body is utter nonsense, since there is no biologically possible way of doing it.
My work here as a skeptic is done :smile:

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot the proof. Well, look here - OBE. Look under the research section. It states that it’s all in your mind. Couldn’t agree more.

51

No, I do completely.

Not just this but in the final ( 3 days ago) OBE I saw items inside and below items that couldn’t be seen before if not having taken a precise point of view and observed clearly. I also ofc didn’t know they were there, the “bothes” paper, the toy figure inside the car miniature, the candy boxes inside the cylinder.

52

Had you been a real skeptic you wouldn’t “bother” with “”“meta”“physicist” ( or “”“meta”“phycisist converts” like me). The real skeptic oughts to be skeptical of his skepticism, not saying this an in abstact concept, but to be more precise according to laws of science and logic always be 50% on what he knows he doesn’t know. And a real skeptic would knew that he doesn’t know that he doesn’t know. I am a real skeptic because in the face of evidence I examine phenomena in an as much as detailed way as possible. I am saying that not in an offensive way, but in a good light, I followed years ago your way of thinking to an annoying point, also see my first post in here, how much like yours it is and what happened after I experienced OBE, so I can’t be criticized of partiality at least.

the undeniable proof of it, also what does constitute a dream

Define “Biologically” thus define what “constitutes life”, also define what life is.
Define the concept of “leaving your body”.

53

Your experiment seems very confusing, You are saying things like “point of view and observed clearly”. I think that if you are not able to do a rigorous experimentation like mine you won’t able to prove to us that OBE doesn’t exist which even Wikipedia seems to think, thank you Paulius.

54

“knew that he doesn’t know that he doesn’t know”
You seem a very redundant person to me…

“Define “Biologically” thus define what “constitutes life”, also define what life is.
Define the concept of “leaving your body”.” It’s not to us or to Paulius to define it, YOU have to.

55

If attesting ( even if visible before) through an OBE changes in your bedroom and atop of that in a next one reading a paper that you don’t know what it had written/drawn on it before, also having seen items that you didn’t know they were placed there before and what they were, what could more rigorous than that. OK moving items and turning pieces of paper upside down in an OBE to see what is written on them would be even more rigorous, not disproving fully what I did. But I have continuous OBEs and can’t get up from my “mental” body. OK I can’t prove to you that i proved , but to say to me that if you trust me what I did is not proof is dogmatic, you wouldn’t be here otherwise, you have to test for yourself to be 100% on all levels, I can’t physically offer anything more.

56

100% agree, my precise answer to that is - I simply can’t define, but 100% I have experienced the phenomenon of it whatever it is. Also tell me why you don’t have to disprove that concept, and how you can disprove the concept that you haven’t defined. If it is a full scale hallucination and you can attest things in that that you haven’t seen before does it absolutely lessen the importance of it? You have to give me PROOF that it does not exist, otherwise you can only be 50%, not 0 or 100 but 50% precisely. Proving positives is the very same as proving negatives if I could call it like that because a negative is aswell a “positive” —> minus minus { -(-) } equals ( = ) positive (+) and vice versa.

57

You know when they prove that the Higgs boson was real (even if they didn’t succeed to prove it 100% because they have discovered a particle similar to the higgs boson and that can prove by his existence the higgs field) after 40 years, I believe that it was real, everyone did even if we know that it exists since the theory.

And I trully believe you, I know that you are not lying but you don’t understand what I am saying, You experiment was not a real one. Cause your brain can be tricky. Also you didn’t answered my question, Did you wrote it before going to see if it was true ?

58

Simply not, because what I wrote has a different value than the same exact phrase with a “doesn’t know” less. I have to write it down like that in way that seems redundant simply enough because what was written first ( where I answered to) is redundant. I can’t be more specific, all arguments I can possibly hear, is “I am skeptic ( I also was before, but not 100% in that way, see for a fact my first post here) thus whatever is materialistic is “true””, but no one as a skeptic has yet to define what matter is for instance.

59

It is true that I wrote many things in a perplexed way, to be more precise and avoid confusion my brother did that, I explained that already in the beginning, he created 3 such papers and one where the random “bothes” was written on it by him, I didn’t see where these papers were before since I avoided looking on detail on the self, but when I OBEd at a time and managed to do that not when upside down but facing towards the shelf I saw in detail that in the bottom shelf of the “bookshelf” the cylinder what these collectible candy boxes inside it ( that were previously in my brothers drawer), and at a specific car miniature out of the 4 car minatures I saw a papa smurf toy( again placed in the same place - the drawer - before), also read almost fully the “bothes” paper that was placed below a mess made out of miniature cars, other little toys, cd cases and a folded paper.

60

“I simply can’t define, but 100% I have experienced the phenomenon of it whatever it is” So when I am walking it does mean that there is some pink flying invisible elephants pushing my legs ? You can’t tell me I’m wrong because I experimented it.

“tell me why you don’t have to disprove that concept”
Double negation, you keep using that expression I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.

“how you can disprove the concept that you haven’t defined”
“You have to give me PROOF that it does not exist”
What ? So if I don’t believe in god I have to give definition of god and how he is supposed to exist to tell you that he doesn’t exist oO ?
I think it’s your job to tell us some proofs of what you are saying, I mean not proof like you think it means. Proof like how and why it can be real.
And then AFTER we can tell you some proofs against yours, that’s how the world is ruled.