Do OBEs exist? (Discussion)

Quest for Lucidity General Lucidness
21

Since you belong to this forum it is apparent that at least you have either experienced a lucid dream or acknowledge it’s existence. You have lucid dreamt or so you believe so…

And the proofs are ?
Aliens can exist because I THINK I saw them yesterday. :razz:

The very fact that you typed that here isn’t necessary true because you might have thought it happened. I am just applying the very same criteria.

The thing is that OBEs start, end and are apparently very precise in their structures. If this is not definitely an OBE it is a complete or at least 99% replication AND logical continuation of everything inside the replication including the stability of the world, the natural phenomena (wind,rain), physics ( how curtains move), all the items in the room in their exact position and state, lightning, and ofc when you “wake up” everything follows exactly this logic. OBEs always start with a smooth transition exactly where you slept and faced and you are found in the same position. You can examine for a lot of time the surroundings and everything is in it’s place. You can mentally move different parts, but they are invisible but autoscopically you can see your body where exactly it was when you slept. My very first OBE was with open eyes, they never closed, and there is absolutely no break between the beginning of an obe and between the end of one. The memory of the OBE is so clear and stable that it leaves zero doubt and the OBE itself is extremely real like, when you wake up our current reality is real like at the same point. Never ever an OBE is blurry, unprecise of what is going around at the time ( i don’t know if someone dropped in the room if it would show), the hallucinations that exist always atop of the reality are extremely real like and well planned. The overall plan of OBEs is precise, their duration, stability, scheme and it is always like that. Also the method they start as commonly described is no more no less completely true. With the gradual paralysis of the body parts, the head last with stable breaths, the control that you can have at the last state where REM sleep would occur, the vibrations where you the body vibrates internally before OBE starts ( it might fail also at the point), the exploding head syndrome, the sleep position you must take to cause sleep paralysis before sleep, the fact that you must be midly tired and although it’s controlable you can let yourself to “sweet sleep”. Now after this to leave zero doubt, although on itself whatever this phenomenon is more than a more “common” LD or a WILD someone would have to raise his mental self and go see things that occur in other rooms, outside the house and if they are faithful to reality. Someone could place a paper with something written or drawn by someone else and without having seen when awake it he could see what’s on it hen having an OBE if it’s so. If this alone doesn’t raise your curiosity, then I can add nothing more.

22

OBEs can, and do, happen at much lighter levels of relaxation than LDs do. Sometimes they happen when the body isn’t relaxed whatsover–like in cases of sudden trauma like a car accident or even fainting.

The WILD technique typically relies on reaching a mind awake/body asleep state. Yes, OBE practitioners also utilize SP; but there are techniques that don’t. People (not me) have reported having OBEs during times when they feel perfectly awake. Check out the literature.

My point is: SP is not necessary for OBEs.

However, SP is not necessary for LDs either. You can WILD from a lightly relaxed state; you don’t need SP conditions. So the presence of SP doesn’t discriminate between OBEs and LDs entirely.

We can argue semantically, though, and say that a dream by definition is an experience you have when your body is asleep. If the body isn’t technically asleep (and SP draws a pretty hard line), then what’s happening isn’t “dreaming.” The other options in our culture are: “OBE,” “vision,” “visualizing,” “hallucination,” etc.

Also, if we say that because OBEs share some qualities with dreams that they therefore must be dreams, then we tacitly assume (demand) that out-of-body consciousness must be like waking physical consciousness or else it’s illusory. Yet, why? Why assume that if projecting the consciousness beyond the physical body is possible that the experience of projection must be like embodied consciousness?

What if OBEs are possible and they diverge experientially from embodied consciousness quite sharply?

As far as I’m concerned, we can only run in circles until we decide what our personal standard of evidence is. Will you only accept the reality of OBEs if skeptics with PhDs, who are respected in the academic world, recruit thousands of participants for a study and scan thousands of brains and discover something statistically significant?

The trouble is, even if that happened, many people would still not believe. I once argued for a half hour with a person who didn’t believe that lucid dreaming was possible. I explained that it’s been scientifically validated, that I’d done it, etc., but he persisted in his non-belief. He believed that lucid dreamers only thought that they were aware of dreaming.

What, really, is the weight of scientific proof if an experience is only individually accessible? Ask yourself this question.

Yes, in an ideally logically evolved society, we would all nod and accept careful scientific studies and then adjust our worldviews accordingly–but that isn’t how it usually works. You may consider yourself a modern person, rational, enlightened, better than the idiots who disbelieve in evolution, but ask yourself–really ask yourself–if just one controversial, but reputable, scientific study (that was peer-reviewed, etc.) would prove the reality of OBEs to you. Wouldn’t you be tempted to say, “the methodolgy must have been flawed,” “the experimenters were biased,” “it was coincidence,” “the experimentee must have been cheating”?

What, really, would it take to prove it to you? A technological device that could induce the OBE state for you so you could perform some difficult experiment?

Regardless of what standard of evidence the greatest skeptics will accept, you can personally experiment with OBEs and seek objective validation. (If you disbelieve or doubt, though, you probably won’t.) Many have claimed to do it successfully. They’re doubted because no one else witnessed their experiment. Our cultural tendency to doubt experiences that aren’t confirmed through strict protocol and oversight is, I think, a positive tendency. Yet, being logical, I see that it’s possible for a (non-deluded) person to experience something and to report about it without lying or being mistaken.

So, listen, there are two valid levels in which you can experiment with OBEs (and possibly prove their reality). You can do it alone, or do it with oversight by another.

If you do it alone, you might succeed–and only people who are predisposed to believe you already will believe you. Everyone else will intimate that you’re a liar, or that you’re deluded.

Add:
I just thought of this: Have you noticed that those who disbelieve or doubt in the reality of OBEs insist on the one hand on a stringent scientific protocol for proving or disproving the phenomenon, but on the other hand will gladly accept anecdotal evidence that seems to disprove the reality of OBEs? That is, if someone has an OBE and concludes that it wasn’t real because, say, their bedroom appeared different, a skeptic would accept that as proof (despite the fact that it’s a subjective experience outside of a strict testing environment).

I don’t point this out to be curmudgeonly; I’m earnestly trying to ferret out the assumptions and biases around this topic.

23

Well they got dreamosis too … one of my favourite guy on the forum …
Our discussion is like a discussion in the Renaissance between The Lights and The Church.
We’re from different country (I’m a stupid bloody French I know, we have bad behaviours etc…).

But the point is, I don’t deny OBE because I like to (or because it can destroy my world etc…) but I deny OBE because you don’t give me enough proofs to convince me (yeah stupid French who doesn’t want to admit that he is wrong blablabla ^^).
I’m atheist, why ? Because the Bible is a good book and God a good conception. (I don’t want to argue on this).

The thing is, “Remember Tomorrow” can prove the existence of OBE. He just have to take a random card and bring it on a desk. When he will do an OBE he will just have to flip the card and remember the number. And if it’s the same card as in reality, I swear to LD4all that I will believe in OBE (I trust remember tomorrow).

Now if you are right with what you got, it can be the discovery of the century.
But I still believe in the non-existence of OBE because I have in one hand the science who’s telling me “No it can’t be possible, your mind is a stupid frenchy” and in the other hand I have an anecdote that I gladly accept :“The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it. Neil deGrasse”.

24

Look back at my first answer, and see how I highly doubted OBEs exist, although I can naturally never be 100% sure, it would be wiser if we all were 50% on everything, that is apparently the only logical way to go. We base our possibilities on current data but we are 100% non-safe about what TYPE of knowledge CAN even exist. First and foremost for all the details I am not exaggerating in the least bit, and since I am not exaggerating the very facts themselves added to the COMBINATION of all these facts, prove 100% that this phenomenon, name it OBE or however you like is nothing experienced before, despite what it’s significance will be proven to be. How, myself can I doubt what I experience now continuously, and why couldn’t I experience it before? And since it’s totally new, whatever it is, if it is a “hallucination” what sets it appart from it’s own reality aswell, or possibly from our own reality ( then everything could be a “hallucination” aswell or not etc), and why is it of that type of hallucination and why it exists in our world? The only thing I know with absolute safety is that I must raise my mental self and get off the bed.

My opinion is that only people that have at least lucid dreamt would possibly accept it if someone found evidence and few others would even believe in the possibility of it. Actually we are ignorant of our ignorance, and since we know that how can we be safe 100% that OBE for instance is not true, we should be 50% ( for non-experiencers). Actually people THINK they are 100% safe that it’s not true, it is naturally impossible to ever be 100% on such matters. But due to limited knowledge and understanding of the very concept of our ignorance, and atop of that due to psychological reasons almost no one would ever accept it and even try it. There are reasons to doubt how such a thing can interfere with our reality, sure, but the thing is that you don’t even know what our reality is. Someone would have to describe events taking place in a remote from where he “slept” enviroment to convince others.

25

I don’t care, just do the test.

26

I did a test that simply had no chance of a false positive.
I really can’t back up my claim, but let’s just say that I don’t “believe”
I “know” and “claim”

27

:smile: I’m open to the idea that OBEs, or a number of them, are physiologically inspired, but–right now–I’m undecided. I’ve had a couple of experiences suggestive of their reality, but I haven’t proven it to myself.

The note experiment–suggested in the lab thread–is well-designed. I think I’ll try it and report back honestly. It’s a superior test to the poker card test because even if you successfully view a poker card while OBE, it can always be argued that it was luck. 1 in 52 odds sound steep, but how do you know if you actually saw the card or got lucky? How many trials do you have to do, statistically? (I don’t know the math.)

Even if a person were able to project their consciousness, though, and read a note they’d never seen before, it wouldn’t prove that there’s a supernatural component to man. It would merely prove that it’s possible to project our consciousness beyond our physical form. For that to happen do you need a soul? No. What if OBEs have reality to them and the explanation is still ultimately physical? What if consciousness can extend itself electromagnetically through space? Who knows.

The Lights and The Church? This has nothing to do with god or no god. Proving the reality of OBEs wouldn’t prove God anymore than it would prove the reality of an immortal soul. Personally, I’m disinclined to believe in both God and the immortal soul.

Yes, the proof of OBEs is unconvincing. That is true. The proof that’s been offered largely lays at the anecdotal level. Anecdotes, of course, can be true; but they lack argumentative power.

28

Identifying targets precisely (Especially those which hv not been seen or heard before) is not possible in a LD (even higher levels of LD) as only what the mind knows/perceives it can identify. All LD’ers unanimously agree on this aspect. It is also because, LD takes place inside the mind. However, The American Military Association had conducted experiments in the field of astral projection and were able to correctly identify targets in AP. There are also many reports and testimony of people who were able to access place never heard or seen before in real life through AP. This can Prove that AP and LD are different. In fact, i find AP to be more ‘real’ and ‘dense’ than LD.

29

In my opinion, I think it just all depends on your beliefs, I know many people who beleive in astral projection over lucid dreaming. Some others beleive they are OBEs. Honestly I just lucid dream. The other topics sound somewhat interesting but I got into lucid dreaming over those so I plan to stick to it:P

30

This Is very interesting you should explain more to me because I have always thought they were practically the same because you do just about the same thing to get to them it just seems that AP is more spiritually dangerous.

31

Dreamosis, I thought you were more perspicacious (is it an English word ?) than that :[.

1 in 52 chance is enough in math.

“The Lights and The Church?” Yep not all the lights but a majority of them ( like montesquieu (don’t forget that i’m french :wink: )). Like 85% of our scientists…

“Proving the reality of OBEs wouldn’t prove God anymore than it would prove the reality of an immortal soul.” I didn’t say that OBE can prove that god exist… I didn’t even think about it…

I don’t know if you ( English people ) have the same notion as me of “the comparison”.
I can’t love you anymore dreamosis :[.

32

This Is very interesting you should explain more to me because I have always thought they were practically the same because you do just about the same thing to get to them it just seems that AP is more spiritually dangerous.
[/quote]

wisegeek.com/what-is-astral-projection.htm

33

So, if one person successfully viewed a poker card during an OBE, which they hadn’t had access to physically beforehand, you would consider that proof of the reality of OBEs?

34

Yep, I said it, I will believe if someone can achieve that.

To be fair with you, it would be more accurate if someone do it twice, but you’ll say that I don’t take some risks etc…
So I do the first move and I truly want to believe in what you believe because … well … it’s a fantastic research.

PS: If a guy fail to it I won’t say that OBE doesn’t exist but it would prove to me that science have won another time.

NB: If you (Dreamosis) achieve that I will marry you (even if it’s illegal in my country).

35

The astral world is governed by its spiritual laws which are often complex for a human mind to understand. You can have access to ‘Akashik Records’ only in an Astral Plane. ‘Akashik’ is a Sanskrit word meaning ‘Cosmos’. Akashik records is a ‘Cosmic Library’ that contains the past, present and future incidents of a persons life. Its present in the cosmos and can be accessed only by AP. Since, LD takes place inside the mind, there is no scope of accessing it via LD. The presence of ‘Akashik records’ have been made by many AP’ers. U can know anything about anyone by having access to Akashik records. However, i have read that, only what u are destined to know, that u can have access as they are governed by spiritual laws.

36

Err. I think Lucky was trying to make a comparison between Astralling and Our of Body Experiences. To me OoBE’s are just as they signify, out of body. I discern them then differently from astral projection as people who AP go to different planes, while those that merely oobe stay on this physical one. I think the terms are often used very loosely, though, and it depends who you talk to and what they define each as. You will find some people that see no difference between the two except the names, and some who would say they are worlds apart :wink: Though, I do not believe the astral world is governed by its own spiritual laws, I think it more has its own laws of physics, though :razz:

37

Ohhh crap me they are two now >_< .
Let’s say it’s the same stuff for our experience.

I don’t understand why Astral (I understand out of body because you’re suppose to be out of body but astral…)

Is it : 1-“pertaining to or proceeding from the stars; stellar; star-shaped.”
or: 2-“Theosophy . noting a supersensible substance pervading all space and forming the substance of a second body (astral body) belonging to each individual. It accompanies the individual through life, is able to leave the human body at will, and survives the individual after death.”
?

38

Okay. Your number 1 definition is to do with astral as in astrology. Your second one is closer to what we mean. As I said, I mostly think of astral projection as having an out of body experience in a different plane. I don’t believe that (as your definition 2 is trying to say), our astral bodies live out on different planes on their own accord. Though, some people would argue that they can find others on the astral plane when said person they are looking for is asleep and dreaming. The idea that follows there is that the Dream realm is one of the planes one can go to while astral projecting.

39

C’mon dagto, there is no need for this. I know that the topic is about discussion but c’mon. Everybody said there opinions and we can’t go deeper in discussion because we don’t have experience so we can argue as much as we can but there is no point. You need to try it and prove it to yourself, nothing more is really important.

And what would really mean to you if I say that OBE’s exist, that I have proved it to myself? You need to live for yourself and your believes, not others…

40

I have to mention, in conjunction to what dB said, that you should probably look here at the BIG OBE topic, where some people have actually detailed out their own experiences. You should also read the first page of this topic where this discussion was had with another person about whether OBE’s exist.