dream characters killing

[Presence_of_Light]

@milod789

You sound as though you know this to be a fact.

Something I’m sure we all do sometimes (i know i said the same thing to someone else that you just said to me in one of these debates in fact…), I believe it to be true, myself. Whether the dream is real or not isn’t the issue, the issue is you are free to do anything you like, good, evil, in between, something you are not free to do in society. How you regularly conduct yourself in a lucid dream says a lot about your conscious psyche, just as your normal dream content says a lot about the unconscious and so forth.

There are plenty of things that I would not do even if it were “legal” or I thought I could “get away with it.”

Me too, but what about the things you dont’ feel bad about doing while lucid, such as stealing from wal-marts, maybe… I hate wal-mart and I hate this coproration controlled society… would I steal from places if I could get away with it? That I really do not know, but I like doing it in dream. It would still be “wrong” in a way becuase it hurts the consumer, not just the corporation, and there are plenty of good people within the company it hurts too.

But would I steal common items like food and junk food and the occasional video game if I could? I have no clue. On the other hand I know I wouldn’t go on random killing sprees in public, much like I wouldn’t normally do that in a dream unless it was in context somehow, like self defense, or, something.

But I do enjoy voyeurism in dream, would I do that in real life? I don’t know…I’d feel bad about it, but I can also feel bad about it in dream too… the point I’m illustrating is if you have no qualms with doing interactive simulations of activities in a regular basis in a lucid dream, that says something about you and your behavior and your morals, and so on and so forth, and is an indicator towards your personality, and towards what you would do if you could do ANYTHING.

Keep in mind power hugely corrupts… I honestly don’t know how well I’d handle myself in real life if I had dream like powers, I know I’d do a lot of my regular LD things like flying, playing tricks on people, telekenesis, and so on. If my regular LD activities were murder and rape… ?

If I feel like venting in a dream I’ll vent though, but that doesn’t mean I need to puporsefully go stalk people I dislike and torment them in dream.

I never said you should.

In fact in my last post

I have done things in my LD that I would not even think of doing in real life.

I was not revering to violence at all.

Hmm… well, the only forms of venting that seem to actually reduce pent up feelings are the angry kinds of venting for me, but I see what you mean.

[Vae_Victus]

@Atheist

Nobody wants to hear it, but people really are natually capable of violent and unethical acts.

(I don’t disagree with that–just sharing a thought that came to mind when I read it.)
I think people are “naturally” any thing you want them to be. People are naturally violent, naturally peaceful, naturally competitive, naturally cooperative, naturally serial killers, naturally good dancers.

I think most violence stems from instincts of survival and ‘imagined survival’ (protecting your children)–if a prime necessity is wanting, the brain will find a way to get it. It’s why humans still exist. But I also believe that violence, like most behavior, can readily be a learned trait. If you live in a peaceful tribal culture, the most “violence” you may ever witness or partake in is killing an animal for food. If you live in a propagandized, violence-ridden, paranoid country, there’s always a decent chance that there might be 18,000+ murders every year.

I, personally, do believe violence in media propagates violence in the real world (because of a few studies that may very well have inaccurate findings), but probably only very slightly compared to many other things–like how people perceive the real world in the first place (do you view the world as strictly evil and good? etc.). I believe indulging in violent fantasies when you feel the need to is plausibly healthy and possibly necessary. But pretending you lack violent feelings when you have them, or over-indulging them when you do, probably is more negative in the long run; just as ignoring/over-indulging in other emotions is dangerous in that you lose touch with reality.

Those are just my cursory thoughts though. And I don’t have much in the way of sources to back any of that up. I might be utterly wrong. Or I might just be reiterating the things people have already pointed out (I didn’t read quite a few posts).

@milod789

Of corse. Since the beginning of time man kind has been at the top of the food chain. We have been hunters, explorers and (yes) warriors.

I love the food chain from a human’s perspective:
exitwound.com/xw/images/misc … dchain.gif
(for some reason, you have to copy/paste this link)

Personally, I think you give us too much credit (just from the connotation I [inaccurately?] derived from your words, not anything you said). I’d say we’re more of the sad scavengers of the planet, willing to eat almost anything and everything as long as it can be digested (and sometimes even if it can’t be). That’s just my (cynical) opinion though.

[milod789]

Something I’m sure we all do sometimes

Now that IS a fact. I know even I have done it. It is hard sometimes to remember to word things so that it is clear that we are just stating our opinion’s. Just so that you know, I was not busting your chops about this. I just wanted to make it clear to any new people that you were just stating your opinion.

Me too, but what about the things you dont’ feel bad about doing while lucid, such as stealing from wal-marts, maybe… I hate wal-mart and I hate this coproration controlled society…

I do not feel bad about doing things in a dream because, I do not believe that dreams are in any way real. So from my point of view, noone including my self, is ever hurt by things done in a LD.

On the other hand I know I wouldn’t go on random killing sprees in public,

Neither would I.

the point I’m illustrating is if you have no qualms with doing interactive simulations of activities in a regular basis in a lucid dream, that says something about you and your behavior and your morals, and so on and so forth, and is an indicator towards your personality, and towards what you would do if you could do ANYTHING.

I do not believe that is true. Again bearing in mind my belief that nothing you do in a dream can or will hurt anyone. For example if I believed that it was possible to harm a real being in a dream I would not do it. In fact there are a lot of things I would not do in a LD if I believed they were real.

Finally, I do not think you should do anything on a regular basis in your LD’s. For example, I know from other posts that you and I enjoy one hobby in LD’s, flying. I enjoy flying more than anything but, if that was all I did in a LD I would miss out on so many other experiences. So I control my desire to fly all the time and think of other things to do.

Keep in mind power hugely corrupts… I honestly don’t know how well I’d handle myself in real life if I had dream like powers, I know I’d do a lot of my regular LD things like flying, playing tricks on people, telekenesis, and so on.

I strongly believe in the saying that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. If I had absolute power in real life things would probably start out good. People would most likely love me. I would eliminate hunger, sickness, and all the other ills that plague humanity. I would create paradise. However I would not want such power because, in the end absolute power corrupts absolutely. I do not know what I would do.

If my regular LD activities were murder and rape… ?

It is not something that I recommend you make a habit of but, that is just me. I believe in allowing yourself to have a variety of experiences in a LD. However, ( I Believe) if you feel the need to vent or whatever in a LD it is ok to indulge yourself once in a while.

[Presence_of_Light]

“-like how people perceive the real world in the first place (do you view the world as strictly evil and good? etc.).”

True that, I perceive the world as anti-me, and the same for my family and especially my locale… so… it makes me feel very animalistic at times.

[milod789]

“-like how people perceive the real world in the first place (do you view the world as strictly evil and good? etc.).”

No. Actually I don’t like the terms “good or evil”. But, in response to your question I think we are booth good and evil. Can’t really elaborate too much more without triggering a religious debate. I can discuss this further in the split religious topic if you want.

You can find that thread here:
https://community.ld4all.com/t/split-religious-debate-from-do-dcs-have-rights/10227/41

[Vae_Victus]

@milod789

No. Actually I don’t like the terms “good or evil”. But, in response to your question I think we are booth good and evil. Can’t really elaborate too much more without triggering a religious debate. I can discuss this further in the split religious topic if you want.

Er, well, that was a poorly worded hypothetical question–I should rephrase…

People who uphold a strict belief that everything is either good or evil, “Sacred” or “Satanic,” are much more susceptible to propaganda (“Taking the Risk out of Democracy,” Alex Carey), and are therefore more likely to commit violence (whether they believe it’s justified is ignored in this statement).

(Just to clarify what I mean by propaganda [though it’s probably unnecessary]: I’m using the definition of propaganda, in this instance, that refers to information or persuasive messages that lead this “listener” to believe the “speaker’s” beliefs virtually at face value; I differentiate information as objective statements with no moral/political implications which are both open to interpretation and open to decision.)

[elmond]

why not just create monsters to slay?
play D&D, read about it, create D&D monsters and slay them
be a paladin and slay evil dragons, be a mage and blow up goblins, or face of a balrog or whatever, why kill normal people in your dreams? but realy they are just a part of you mind, manifestations of your ego, feelings, and so on, so i guess killing them won’t harm anyone, but i guess you could get used to it, and kill someone IRL and feel no remorse over it…so there is a danger, so stick to monsters instead, or create DCs that can defend themselves at least…have a mage duell or something.

[elmond]

we dont get rid of our bad sided by looking to the heaven and thinking of angels, but by facing our dark sides, embracing them, and realize that they are a part of ourselves.
That is a problem with those who think they are perfect, and have no bad sides, god has spoken to them, and they are on a holy quest, they think everything they do is towards ultimate good, nobody is perfect and we all have flaws.
I guess those who have seen god, have just had a LD were they saw god.
Probably a self-fulfilling desire, to justify their visions, and desires…

[milod789]

Vae Victus

But I also believe that violence, like most behavior, can readily be a learned trait. If you live in a peaceful tribal culture, the most “violence” you may ever witness or partake in is killing an animal for food. If you live in a propagandized, violence-ridden, paranoid country, there’s always a decent chance that there might be 18,000+ murders every year.

To a certain extent I do agree. Violence can be a learned trait however, even in the peaceful village you described I could see the occasional brawl over a girl, property or some other perceived wrong. By the same token in a village where people know nothing but hate and Violence. You will find some people who would not harm a fly.

As to the influence of violent media ( movies, games, etc) I have made my opinion on that clear in previous posts and it would just be redundant to repeat again here. Yes, media my be a factor but in my opinion a very insignificant factor.

I’d say we’re more of the sad scavengers of the planet, willing to eat almost anything and everything as long as it can be digested (and sometimes even if it can’t be). That’s just my (cynical) opinion though.

LOL It is not funny I know but, I do agree that the term scavenger is proper title for many people. There are many people who just take/do what they want an the hell with the consequences. However, I do not think everyone deserves that title. Unfortunately, the scavengers have become masters of the planet ( or so they think ).

People who uphold a strict belief that everything is either good or evil, “Sacred” or “Satanic,” are much more susceptible to propaganda (“Taking the Risk out of Democracy,” Alex Carey), and are therefore more likely to commit violence

I completely agree with that.
I wrote previously in this thread:

So “good” that anyone who thinks differently than you is labeled as evil. In reality, it is when people or, a society develop this level of “goodness” that the greatest of evil acts are committed.

I believe indulging in violent fantasies when you feel the need to is plausibly healthy and possibly necessary. But pretending you lack violent feelings when you have them, or over-indulging them when you do, probably is more negative in the long run; just as ignoring/over-indulging in other emotions is dangerous in that you lose touch with reality.

I have often said that people should feel free to indulge in there dark side in lucid dreams once in a whileand not feel guilty about it. I believe it can be an effective way of venting and letting go of frustrations. However, I believe you should always keep your dreams like everything else in balance.

elmond

why not just create monsters to slay?
play D&D, read about it, create D&D monsters and slay them
be a paladin and slay evil dragons, be a mage and blow up goblins, or face of a balrog or whatever, why kill normal people in your dreams?

Interesting distinction !!! Now let me ask you a question. What’s the difference ??? Does not the dragon, goblin or ork have every right to live just as a “normal human” has. Sorry if I am shattering your illusion of right and wrong but, violence is violence regardless of the justification for it.

Just something to think about.

[elmond]

not if they attack me
and im a game fan, so goblins and orcs tend to be evil
so my dreams will be better off withouth them

[clarkkent]

@elmond

we dont get rid of our bad sided by looking to the heaven and thinking of angels, but by facing our dark sides, embracing them, and realize that they are a part of ourselves.
That is a problem with those who think they are perfect, and have no bad sides, god has spoken to them, and they are on a holy quest, they think everything they do is towards ultimate good, nobody is perfect and we all have flaws.
I guess those who have seen god, have just had a LD were they saw god.
Probably a self-fulfilling desire, to justify their visions, and desires…

You easily confuse things it seems.
I for myself am not perfect, I have bad sides like everyone has, I am a sinner too like everyone else and I admit it. But God makes you righteous, if you let him. He faces your dark side and then you can handle it, with him (it’s not what I’d call embracing it - what’s wrong is wrong).
I’ve never seen God in an LD and I don’t expect to. I’ve experienced God in real life and it’s better than an LD and something difficult to explain. It’s not a vision and not a desire but you won’t understand.

I wonder if anyone here follows alt.dreams.lucid - a guy there actually came to my same conclusions on killing dream characters. Perhaps some of you might give it a look. His argumentation is different, but the conclusion was similar.

[milod789]

elmond

not if they attack me

As I said there’s your justification for it. Why attack and kill the being when you could just as easily fly away from it, teleport your self to someplace safe, cast a sleep spell etc…

im a game fan, so goblins and orcs tend to be evil

By whose definition ???

so my dreams will be better off withouth them

But then you would have nothing else to kill.

You attack the creature because it is a release and an opportunity to explore your dark side as you said. Don’t get me wrong. I am not criticizing you for doing so. I am just pointing out that it does not matter if you play a lawful/ good pladian or a chaotic/evil warrior king. It is all the same and is (in my opinion) completely harmless. Feel free to indulge yourself as you explore the different aspects of your nature. Lucid Dreaming is a great way to safely explore your fantasies , vent your frustrations etc. Perhaps it might be an interesting experience to play (in a LD)as a so called evil dragon. See if it is truly “evil”. Just a thought.

I do however hope that you use your LD ‘s for some positive experiences as well, but that is just me.

btw-

we dont get rid of our bad sided by looking to the heaven and thinking of angels, but by facing our dark sides, embracing them, and realize that they are a part of ourselves.
That is a problem with those who think they are perfect, and have no bad sides, god has spoken to them, and they are on a holy quest, they think everything they do is towards ultimate good, nobody is perfect and we all have flaws.
I guess those who have seen god, have just had a LD were they saw god.
Probably a self-fulfilling desire, to justify their visions, and desires…

I agree whit most of this but:
I know you are new however, we are trying to avoid religious discussions in this thread. ( which I know is hard) Since the mods created a split religious debate topic of this thread religious discussions are considered to be off topic. But you are new and did not know so it’s ok.

You can find that thread here:
https://community.ld4all.com/t/split-religious-debate-from-do-dcs-have-rights/10227/41

[Vae_Victus]

milod,

Ah, we seem to mainly agree about most of this (even if we are on slightly different shades of spectrums).

Although actually, I would like to retract the phrase I used, “violence in the media.” What I should’ve said, is “witnessed violence,” or something of that nature. The phrase media is ambiguous and misleading. Violence in video games pales in comparison (understatement) to violence in reality.

[milod789]

Vae Victus

Yes I think I understand what you mean now. If a person lived in a situation where they witness real violence on a daily basis that can have a huge impact on the person. I can not even imagine what it must be like to live in a place where real violence occurs on a weekly if not daily basis. If I lived in such circumstances I would most likely learn nothing but, hate and anger as well.

[oneiromancer]

@milod789

If I lived in such circumstances I would most likely learn nothing but, hate and anger as well.

or maybe you’d have the greatest inspiration of us all to not exercise violence

i used to work at a drug store where practically everyone stole, but i still didn’t do it

i used to also be the guy who didn’t drink even though all my friends would get drunk every weekend (but i guess that’s not a good example because i drink now, but i held out for 3 years )

[milod789]

or maybe you’d have the greatest inspiration of us all to not exercise violence

Yea, that was a badly worded post and not quite what I meant to imply. I simply meant that a persons circumstances can be a factor in explaining why some people chose violence or crime as a means to cope and survive. However, it is only one factor. I have seen a lot with my own eyes. I have meet people who have done some ( what we as a society would consider ) heinous acts. Yet, after talking to and trying to help these people I have a hard time considering them “bad”. Many were victims once themselves.

While I believe that a persons circumstances can play a strong influence over how a person will react it is not an absolute indicator. You can’t simply say that A+B+C (will)=D. I have worked with people who were born into the worst of circumstances. Yet they some how decided to make better decisions and went on to live extraordinary lives.

I have also seen the opposite happen. I have met people who were born to wealthy, loving parents. They excelled in academics and had the best education one could hope for. Yet today they live a life of drug addiction, prostitution and crime. Why ???

I don’t know if we will ever truly discover (prove) what truly causes the ills of society. For now all we can do is make educated guesses.

[oneiromancer]

perhaps it is something spiritual they lack (for the people born into good situations and decline into bad ones) or something spiritual they have (for those that did the opposite)

afterall… just because someone has material wealth doesn’t mean he’s rich.

[milod789]

perhaps it is something spiritual they lack (for the people born into good situations and decline into bad ones) or something spiritual they have (for those that did the opposite)

Could be.

afterall… just because someone has material wealth doesn’t mean he’s rich.

Yes, a person can lead a very rich life without attaining material wealth. That was not what I was referring to.

In the example I gave above the individual may have had “material wealth”, loving caring parents, great educational opportunities, and loyal friends. However, I think the person led too easy a life. What ever the person wanted the person got. When the person got into mischief it was quickly and quietly “taken care of”. The person never had to take responsibility for anything. As a result was erroneously taught that they “could do no wrong.” Then, when forced to live in the real world the person was ill equipped to manage there life. As a result the person was sent on a downward spiral that got way out of control.

Now in the other example on the opposite end of the spectrum was a person who lived in life with no “material wealth”, substance addiction, sexual abuse etc. She lived a life of murphy’s law. Anything bad that could happen to her did. Now she mad a lot of unfortunate choices yet somewhere along the way she changed that around. Freed herself from drugs and alcohol and became an advocate for people who were in a similar situation that she was in. She turned out to be a great person (I think) because of her past. Though she will never attain “material wealth” she is one of the richest people I know.

Anyway the point I wanted to make is that just because you have a negative experience or up bringing that does not necessarily mean you will be a negative person. Likewise just because you have a positive experience or upbringing does not mean you will be a positive person. I would like to elaborate here a little more but, I am trying very hard to avoid anything that would spark a religious debate in this thread. I there fore will leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Well, how we got onto this topic in a thread about killing dream charters I don’t know. Mmm ha yes, we were discussing weather or not violent media or violent dreams could causes violence. then the conversation evolved to “What does cause violence?” So I guess in a way we are sort of still on topic.

[El_Fonzo]

I wouldn’t kill anyone in an LD, that’s just cold.
…well maybe one…

[milod789]

El Fonzo said:

I wouldn’t kill anyone in an LD, that’s just cold.

Why would it be cold? Mind you I am not suggesting or advocating that you harm or mistreat any of your dream charicters. (Especially if it does not feel right to you.) But I would like to hear your thought on this a little more.