False Dichotomy of "Normal" Dreams Vs. LDs

Since the beginning of modern dream science, researchers have been confounded by lucid dreams.

Freud scarcely mentioned them in his Interpretation of Dreams until a late edition, and even then he gave them short shrift. From his papers we know that his patients told him about their lucid dreams, but apparently LDs didn’t fit nicely into his theory so he neglected them.

LDs have also become a fraught issue for more contemporary neuroscientists, who typically need the help of sleep subjects to identify a lucid dream. Tholey, in Germany, and LaBerge, in the US, softened the attitude of psychologists and biologists toward lucid dreaming by demonstrating in the lab that a person could both be “asleep”—as measured by an EEG—and conscious, and that they could communicate this with eye signals.

Over time, both non-lucid and lucid dreams have shown themselves to be more complicated than originally thought. For instance, contrary to what was originally assumed, REM and dreaming are not synonymous. We dream, even lucid dream, during NREM. “Normal” dreams and lucid dreams are not readily distinguishable by looking at an electronic readout. Although the science is getting better. New equipment, and methodologies, can predict the lucid dream brain-state statistically well.

What deeper study is revealing, though, is that lucid and so-called normal dreams are not always so very different. Subjectively, first-hand, of course, a lucid dream is experienced quite differently from a “normal” dream. From the outside, though, a “normal” dream can have pre-frontal cortex activity, and bursts of the same kinds brainwaves exhibited in a lucid dream.

As a dedicated lucid dreamer I think that it’s important to see that lucid dreams and dreams of less lucidity overlap in a number of places. Lucidity isn’t on-or-off. Rather, what makes a fantastically clear lucid dream so distinctive is a critical level of consciousness—not the presence of consciousness per se.

The other, crucial part of realizing that “normal” and lucid dreams are not dichotomous, is considering the very word “normal.” The meaning behind the word is mathematical, statistical—and that’s it.

The body of anthropological research done on dreaming shows that some cultures have far more lucid dreams than others. If half, or even ten percent, of one’s remembered dreams are lucid, what’s the sense of thinking of lucid dreams as abnormal in any real sense?

Of course, most regular LDs don’t have a bias against LDs as being somehow “against the grain” of dreaming, but this attitude is still powerful. As a lucid dreamer I have sometimes ignored the symbolism of lucid dreams, under the assumption that only “normal” dreams can have any communicative content—that is, under the assumption that lucidity somehow interferes with “normal” dreaming.

Experience, and conferring with others, and with the research, has shown that this assumption is false. Lucid dreams, while experientially different, are not categorically different than “normal” dreams in all ways.

Research has also shown that the occurrence of LDs relates directly to a culture’s appreciation of dreaming in general. That is, if a society disregards dreams as unimportant, false and random, and as having no intra-psychological value, that society tends to experience fewer LDs. Meaning: LDs are statistically more normal in places where dreams are valued.

Last, it’s useful, of course, to distinguish between types of experiences. Obviously, in learning lucid dreaming, it’s useful to discern among hypnogogia, sleep paralysis versus light trance, between DILDs and WILDS and the classic out-of-body phenomenology. And it’s useful to discern between non-lucid, pre-lucid, sub-lucid, semi-lucid, and so forth.

But it can be a hindrance to dichotomize the two experiences—both scientifically and personally.

Well yes, I agree.

Although I always felt like becoming lucid does interfere with dream how you said: “communicative content.”

But then again if you think about it what actually means being lucid, realizing that when you are lucid most of the times you control only some aspects of the dream, everything else is part of the “normal” dream, right?! You - consciousness is like a point in all this world. You are aware of yourself and when you shift your consciousness toward one or multiple aspects of dream then those aspects become part of your lucid dream, well at least that’s how I look on things.

Also the part where you talk about cultural impact I must say I do agree and I am the one that comes from society where dreams have no meaning. We never talked about dreaming, never show any importance whats so ever… And it’s sad to not teach someone so amazing thing when on the another hand we are thought very stupid and idiotic things…

Well, good topic! :beer:

Yes, it’s an understandable bias—thinking that lucidity somehow interferes with a natural process. As a matter of fact, my wife is emphatically against lucid dreaming because she thinks that it’s “messing around with your mind.”

Of course, bringing more awareness to dreaming is essentially no different than bringing more awareness to waking life—it’s only that the biological circumstances are different. While awake, your brain is outwardly-oriented and perceives based on afferent inputs; while dreaming, your brain in inwardly-oriented and has experiences based on imagination. Observing thought processes, expressed as landscapes and 3D characters, is certainly more dramatic than run-of-the-mill meditation, but lucid dreaming (on one level) is just that—observing the mind.

(Yet, as you may know, there isn’t a hard line even there. Our bodymind can still somewhat perceive, even while asleep, and might incorporate sense data directly or indirectly into the dream. Sleeping in a very cold room can affect dream content, as well as “an undigested bit of beef” can, but deterministic models of dreams simply do not match up with dream experience.)

To me, Robert Waggoner has said the most on this subject, by asking, “Does a sailor control the sea?” Lucid dreaming is only rarely like being a god; it’s usually like being a sailor of a ship. Even among LDers who believe that they can control anything about their dream, and who believe that expectation is everything, you have only a scattering of examples of true, total, top-down, god-like control.

The conflation of lucidity and control is one of the reasons that “normal” dreams and lucid dreams are dichotomized. Many think that to be lucid is to control events, but that’s only somewhat true. Besides, when you ask around, you’ll find out that a lot of “control dreamers” are rarely lucid in the deep sense that most lucid dreamers mean. (They’re usually semi-lucid—lucid for a few seconds, long enough to change something before slipping back into an automatic style of consciousness.)

It’s really interesting to think about this, because to them, regular “control dreamers,” semi-lucidity is normal. It happens to them almost every day.

On the subject of lucidity and different cultures, another friend of mine who’s a regular “control dreamer,” and also frequent lucid dreamer, was raised partly on a Navajo reservation. Talking dreams with him was enlightening, because so many of his dreams are lucid or semi-lucid. To him, he looked at non-lucid dreams as a kind of “white” (Caucasian) experience. (But that isn’t to say that every Navajo is a regular lucid dreamer.)

But the broader point, again, is that talking dreams with him showed me that lucid dreams are not abnormal. Their statistics vary by culture and can be altered personally by point of view alone. Think about it! Many people have their first lucid dreams after simply hearing that it’s possible!

I would really like to have someone to talk to like you do, I do have friends that know about LD’ing but they are more aware of the phenomena then being into phenomena.

One friend showed really big interest but later gave up just because…

Yes I’ve noticed that. Well higher lucidity is something we all long for but if we don’t raise our lucidity in WL there won’t be much of it in dream world. It’s very simple equation if you ask me but people tend to forget that because as they slip very easily to as you said: “an automatic style of consciousness” in their dreams they do the same in WL too.

No one said that becoming lucid is easy road but I know that’s worth it. Of all the fun you can have and explore most extraordinary things to something completely different what I’ve noticed that most of the dreamers still don’t use dreams for and that is the inner growth or spiritual growth. Don’t know how many people even consider this as something tangible or possible but I’ve been there and even if it’s just a placebo effect it’s still an effect… :content:

I like that! May I add it to my collection of lucid levels?

Non-lucid
Sub-lucid (I’ll use that inclusive of of pre-lucid, since lucidity might not be an aim so much as a state)
Demi-lucid (I think demi- as a prefix just sounds better than semi- :tongue:)
Lucid
Supra-lucid? (Unrestrained control of dream environment combined with full awareness?)

I much prefer the term non-lucid dream to normal dream. Then we can clarify that most people default to dreaming absent lucidity, but lucidity is not necessarily a disorder.

@EllyEve: Sure!

(I like “demi-lucid.”)

In my distinctions above, I’m quoting from Ed Kellogg, PhD., a dream researcher connected to the IASD.

Kellogg uses the distinctions pre-lucid, sub-lucid, semi-lucid, lucid, fully lucid and super lucid. For him, pre-lucid means that you’re questioning the dream environment but questioning never leads to awareness of it being a dream. Sub-lucid, to him, means that you’re aware that you’re dreaming, but you don’t act on the information. You just go with the flow of the dream. Semi-lucid means that you make at least one choice based on your awareness, but once you begin continuously actively making choices, you might as well call yourself lucid.