Interview with Jose Arguelles

[color=darkblue][size=117]Recent Interview with

Dr. José Argüelles

courtesy of: … -trans.doc[/size][/color]

Interview composed and conducted by Robert Lucente.
Interview conducted - Monday, February 3, 2003

Red Resonant Dragon

Resonant Moon Day 25
I Channel in order to Nurture
Inspiring Being
I seal the Input of Birth
With the Resonant tone of Attunement
I am guided by the power of Space
I am a galactic activation portal enter me.

:: Open Your Mind to a New Time ::

Dr. José Argüelles


With all of the turmoil and crises facing humanity, the Earth, and all within the Earth’s biosphere, there is one thing that most people can still agree on – there are no easy solutions to our vast array of dilemmas. We strive for peace, equality, freedom, justice, unity, and to protect the Earth including all of its living beings and resources. Yet history has only grown more challenging and complex – filled with an endless stream of obstacles to attaining these ideals.

However, as a looming war troubles the world, there is a movement under way suggesting what may be the one UNTRIED solution. That perhaps something we take for granted and live with day in and day out may need to be changed drastically, and QUICKLY before we can even begin to solve any of these complex issues. What could this be? Humanity’s concept and practice of time keeping via the Gregorian calendar and the mechanical clock.

Join as we speak with Dr. José Argüelles, author and founder of the Foundation for the Law of Time, about the 13 Moon Calendar, the New Time Peace Movement and the Great Calendar Change of 2004. In addition, Dr. Argüelles shares his extensive knowledge of the history of the calendar, Mayan time science, 2012 prophecies, the Law of Time, and much more.

This might just be an idea, whose time has come!

Greetings Dr. José Argüelles. Welcome to and THANKS for joining us.

It’s a pleasure being here on the electronic airwaves.

Fantastic! We are very excited to have a conversation with you. The New Time Peace Movement is starting to explode, and the 13 Moon Calendar is starting to come into more popular use - but, for as many people that are turning on, I think it’s safe to say that still many folks are very much unaware of what the New Time Peace Movement is proposing.

So on that note, let’s get right to it and have you activate the commUNITY here in with your knowledge of time!

To start, why don’t you explain your Foundation, its missions and concept?

The Foundation for the Law of Time began in the summer of 2000. Its purpose is to promote the 13 Moon Calendar, the 13 Moon Calendar Change Peace Plan, and the Law of Time. The 13 Moon Calendar is intended to replace the current Gregorian calendar. The 13 Moon Calendar is an absolutely perfect harmonious 13-month, which are called Moons, calendar, of 28 days each. Everything is very evenly, orderly and harmonic so you can’t get lost in time.

When you look at the Gregorian calendar, as we know, it befuddles the mind: 30 days hath September, April, June and November, all the rest have 31, except for February which has 28, except for on Leap Year which has 29, and I feel sorry for the people born on February 29.


The Gregorian calendar is so dogmatic. Most people have no idea how much we are programmed by a calendar, even people who say, ‘Well I don’t follow a calendar’. Well, a calendar is what programs a society that uses it. It is the most fundamental program that a society has. If you take the calendar away from society, the society ceases to exist really.

So is that what your Foundation is targeting and addressing?

Yes, we’re addressing this whole issue of the calendar. You see a calendar is also supposed to be a standard of measure and what you want with a standard of measure is even units of measure. The calendar we use right now does not have even units of measure. It has months that are uneven and it has weeks that don’t correlate with the months. The weeks are 7 days, the months are 30, 31, except for in February, which has 28 days, but then because depending upon when the week or when the year began, you don’t know if February 1st is going to be on a Sunday or whatever it’s going to be. So those units of measure don’t mesh. Well that messes with your head something terrible and when you’ve been using that for 400 years, it messes with the society’s head so badly that the society doesn’t know how deformed its thinking really is and that’s problematic.

So you’re suggesting that perhaps a change of the current calendar may help humanity is some way?

Yes, I think the point is, it will improve humanity. It will be of the greatest benefit to humanity to start getting its mind from a deformed state to a harmonic state and that’s the whole point. So, we’re promoting that, and what we’re looking at is the Great Calendar Change of 2004, which is not too far away. We’re looking at July 25 and 26, 2004 as the big moment to pass through this moment in time.

Wow, that’s a pretty aggressive schedule you must have?

Yes it is, but you know we’ve been on the schedule for a while. I first became aware of this problem with the calendar back in 1988 or 1989. I had written a book called The Mayan Factor back in 1987 based on the Mayan calendar. Then when I started trying to put the Mayan calendar into the present time I saw it had real problems because the Gregorian calendar is not harmonic like the Mayan calendar is. Then in 1989, I made the discovery of the 12:60 frequency.

I was in the Museum of Time in Geneva and realized that that museum should be renamed the Museum of Mechanical Time. It’s another one of those things people don’t realize. They think time is like what’s in a watch, but that’s another one of these dreadful illusions. I was in this museum and realized, because I had been studying and living on Mayan timing cycles, that everything in modern civilization is based on this concept of time which is not really valid.

The mechanical clock is based on 12, and the 12-month calendar, of course is also based on 12.

12 is a number that has to do with space, and you’ll see how the programming is, you cant’ go anywhere, remember every school classroom has a round clock. Every office you walk into has a round clock on the wall. What is that? You’re looking at a 2 dimensional plane - a circle. A 2 dimensional plane in space with these little hands… (laughs)

(Laughs) Right.

…going around and around. It’s divided into 12 parts, because it’s a 360 degree thing, so 12 goes into 360 30 times. You have this thing; it’s measurement of space. What’s that got to do with time? Those little hands going around this thing in space. That’s not time. People are hypnotized by that. They think that’s time. So I looked at that this and thought, ‘This is all wrong’, and realized that the whole civilization is based on an error in time. This error in time: thinking that time is based on the number 12, the hands going around the clock, and a calendar that is totally irregular, illogical and absurd.

The combination of this calendar and the mechanical clock create a state of mind or consciousness, which we refer to as the 12:60 frequency: the 12-month calendar and the 60-minute mechanical hour. The 12-month calendar is irrational and the 60-minute hour is mechanistic. So you have a civilization that is a totally irrational civilization based on the mechanization of everything. That just creates a messed up species.

You’re knowledge of the actual history of time is really impressive. Perhaps you may share with us a bit how the current Gregorian calendar and mechanical clock came into being?

I’ll just say one other thing, when I made that discovery about the 12:60 frequency, that’s when I realized we had to change the calendar. That was the first step. We had to get a harmonic calendar.

Now when we say, ‘What is the history of these things?’ Well, you know I found out that the concept of the clock existed at the very beginning of history. 3100 BC, the Sumerians, in the first city of history, Uruk, which is an early version of the name Iraq (that’s where we’re going - back to bomb the beginning of history) they had already come up with the concept of dividing the circle into segments and even into 24 hours.

What were they getting at with that? What do you think was motivating them?

Well, you know, that’s an interesting thing, because before that time, when I looked at that matter, virtually everywhere on the planet, was following some kind of variation of a 13 Moon/28-day calendar. It was very pervasive. The Druids had it. It was all over Europe, ancient China even, and this idea of dividing the circle and then substituting the division of the circle for concepts of time, I believe was actually part of what I would call a male Babylonian conspiracy. You know we call the dates before the birth of Christ, BC? Well, that really means Babylonian Conspiracy!


And we’re still living in the Babylonian Conspiracy. Why is the number 13 superstitious? It’s the biggest superstition that we have in this civilization. A guy named Jonathan Cott, who writes for Rolling Stone, he wrote a book called 13: A Journey Into the Number. Tridecaphobia is fear of the number 13. Why is that? Because the number 13 represents harmony. It also represents what we might call cosmic harmony, as well as the feminine principle.

13 is a prime number. 12 is a static number, you know 3x4, 4x3, 2x6, interlocking sets, but it doesn’t go anywhere. It’s a number of space, whereas 13 is a number of movement of time. So I believe that the whole thing began, as some type of almost cosmic conspiracy, to establish a male patriarchy that was using a calendar, which eventually was going to be mumbo-jumbo, to confuse and keep the people oppressed and because of this you’ll see when did taxation begin? Where did money come from? You’ll see that they’re all closely related to this idea of a calendar. In fact, the word calendar itself, is a Latin word. The Romans inherited their civilization basically in concepts of war, taxation, and money, from the Babylonians, and the word calendar means account book. The first day of the Roman month was called calends, that’s when you pay your bills.

Right, well I guess it stuck?

Yes, it stuck. Like I said, a calendar is the program that keeps the society in place, and so from the beginning they created this calendar. The Babylonians, the Sumerians, and then later on down to the Romans, created this system of the calendar and used it as way of manipulating people. They invented money and then had people pay taxes.

And they could time them then.

Yes, that’s what we call time thieves or time bandits. They created the concept that time is money. We still live with that. That’s why I say we’re still in this Babylonian conspiracy. So, that began way back then. The calendar that we use today, the Gregorian calendar, actually came from Rome. It came from Julius Caesar. It was originally called the Julian calendar. The Romans had a very funky calendar at the time of Julius Caesar.

Did they invent this one from scratch?

Well, for some reason or another they just had a 10-month calendar, and then Julius Caesar added 2 more months, and this created great havoc. Why did Julius Caesar do that? Because he wanted to have a new instrument of control when he proposed that Rome ceased to be a Republic and become an Empire. That’s why he was assassinated.

Because of that move with the 2 months?

Because of that move to make it an Empire and impose this calendar. When he imposed that calendar, their count of time was way off. So the first year of that calendar was called the Year of Great Confusion, because it had 400 and 40 odd days.

So were they using any solstices or anything in that calendar or was it completely arbitrary of that?

Very arbitrary, like why does it begin on January 1st instead of the solstice?

Was that one of Caesars’ moves?

Yes, that was one of Julius Caesars moves. So anyway, that’s where that came from.

But, at one point, didn’t someone try to incorporate a solar quality to it, with 365 days?

Well, yes, he eventually made it into a measure of the solar orbit, which is 365 days, but it doesn’t have even units of measure. It’s like having a yardstick and then 1 inch is actually 1-½ inches, and another inch is ¾’s of an inch. Well you’re going to build a very screwy house with that! So we live in a mental house of time, which is very screwy. So, anyway, Julius Caesar invented that. I’ll tell you, one other thing is nobody questions hardly why we use this calendar, much less what the names of the months mean which is another screwy thing.

How did some of the names come into play?

Well, January is the God of the Doorway. February is an obscure reference to a type of entrails used in a form of divination. March is named after Mars, the God of War. April and May are named after obscure floral Goddesses of the springtime. Juno was the wife of Jupiter. July is named after Julius Caesar. August is named after Augustus Caesar. August used to be the month called Sextile, which means 6, and Augustus Caesar said, ‘Julius has a month named after him, I want a month named after me.’ So he changed Sextile to August. At that time it only had 30 days, February had 29, so he took the 29th day from February and added it to August so it would have 31 just like Julius did with July.

September, which is the 9th month, means 7. October, which is the 10th month, means 8. November, the 11th month, means 9. December, the 12th month, means 10. That’s screwy. OK, and the civilization which is based on that is also screwy. That’s why we got real big problems in the world today. Because we’ve accepted this calendar, we’ve dogmatized it. You can read books by scholars about the calendar, and they all apologize for this calendar. They say, ‘We know this calendar is a medieval anachronism. But it works and everybody uses it, so…’

Don’t question.

Don’t question it.

Was there a movement for a calendar reform to happen at some point?

Yes, there was. This calendar was, of course, inherited by the Christians in the 6th century or even before that, which then became the Eastern Church, the Orthodox Church and later on the Catholic Church. Then in 1582, Pope Gregory the 13th had a reform of the Julian calendar and then it became known after Pope Gregory, as the Gregorian calendar. In a sense, this calendar is the Vatican’s calendar. The world lives on Vatican time. There was a movement to reform the Gregorian calendar that began in the 19th century. In fact, the French Positivist Philosopher, Father of Sociology, a guy named Auguste Comte, in 1842 or so, decided that the calendar was totally irrational and that we should have a rational calendar. So he made a study and said ‘The most rational calendar for a measure of the solar year is going to be 13 months and 28 days.’

Where did he pick it up?

He picked it up, believe it or not, from the Polynesians who were using that calendar. The French explorers came back from the South Pacific and they said, ‘Hey look at this, the Polynesians use a calendar of 13 months and 28 days.’ You go to a lot of indigenous people and you tell them about this, and they say, ‘Oh yes, I remember grandpa said something about that long time ago. We haven’t seen it in long time either.’ A guy in the Hawaiian Islands says, ‘Oh yes, Tutu said we had that one once.’ So, everybody had it.

So he proposed going to that?

He proposed doing that. It was the most rational thing in the world, which it is, 13-months/28-days. It’s an even standard of measure. The female menstrual cycle is 28 days. It’s in tune with human biology. Actually scientifically, the Moon does go around the Earth 13 times a year. If you’re out in space and you see it, you see our measurement of the Moon here, from New Moon to New Moon, goes in a cycle of 29 days or if you measure the Moon from where it appears at one point in the sky and when it returns to that same point is 27 days. So between the 27 and the 29 is the 28. That’s the actual lunar average or standard and actually that’s the basis of it, and as I said it’s the female biological cycle.

So, toward the end of the 19th century, there were many movements. They said, ‘Oh, we’re going to get to the 20th century which is going to be scientific, we need to get rid of the Gregorian calendar.’ So these movements began. The League of Nations, in the 1920s, the predecessor of the UN, they took up the cry. The International Chamber of Commerce, people like Eastman Kodak, of Kodak Film, they were all into it.

So, they went to the League of Nations and the League of Nations announced that on January 1, 1933 the world would have a new calendar. They had solicited for proposals and got over 500 proposals to replace the Gregorian calendar. They narrowed it down to 3 and by far, unanimously, the most popular one was the 13-month/28-day calendar. About 90% of the organizations polled with regards to the calendar went for that one. So it looked like we should have been on the 13-month/28-day calendar in 1933. So what happened?

OK, what happened was in 1929, a guy named Benito Mussolini, a Fascist dictator of Italy decided that the Vatican, who’s power had shrunk enormously from the time of Pope Gregory the 13th in 1582 when the Vatican virtually owned the planet (in terms of its colonization’s and finance and so on) that it had shrunk. It had lost all its power. Benito Mussolini said the Vatican needs to have political status, political power again, needs to have its own banking system and in 1929 the Vatican became virtually a nation state of 4 acres and was able to wield a lot of power. So when the news of the calendar reform came, and as I said the Gregorian calendar is really the Vatican calendar…

Right, so Mussolini made a point to…?

Yes so, the Vatican then marshaled all of its influence, which was still very great, and at that time still had influence with many scientists and said, ‘Look 13-months/28-days, 13 times 28 is 364. There is 365 days in a solar orbit. The 365th day is no day of the week or month at all.’ This is what we call a DAY-OUT-OF-TIME, which correlates to July 25.

This ‘day-out-of-time’ or ‘null day’, as they called it back then, was objected to strenuously by the Vatican. The Vatican raised big arguments saying that, ‘If we had a null day, a day that was no day of the week or month at all, that that would break the succession of the 7-day week that was set in motion when God created the Universe.’ Of course, where did the 7-day week come from? It came from the Babylonians based on the mystic number 7 and then they gobbled that all up with planetary associations. In any case, the Vatican, and its scientific apologists said, ‘If we break the succession of the 7-day week, that the world will fall into social chaos, catastrophe, terrorism and war.’ Well, where are we today because we didn’t make that reform? OK, we are exactly at that point.

So, they officially ruled it out?

It didn’t go. Then the movement to reform the calendar went into a muddle and then World War II happened. Then after the atomic bombs in 1945 and during World War II, the world changed enormously and what had been a very high priority with the League of Nations became a very low priority with the United Nations. In 1956, the UN tabled any further discussions about calendar reform.

In 1961 the Vatican Ecumenical Council had a statement about calendar reform that said they would accept a reform of the Gregorian calendar only if it respected the 7-day week and the fact that Easter had to remain a movable feast. Why is Easter never on the same day every year? They have a very weird rule about that, says Easter is always the first Sunday after the first Full Moon after the Spring Equinox, except for when the Full Moon is on a Sunday. Then it’s on the Sunday after that because if it were on that Sunday, then it would coincide with Jewish Passover.

Interesting, so that and the “null day” was their stance?

Yes, so that effectively stopped the whole thing, threw it into a muddle. It didn’t happen. It was tabled; by 1956 the calendar reform movement appeared to have died away. And most people, they said well, the world had changed enormously, and people said, ‘Well we’re more prosperous then we ever were, why do we want to change that for right now and mess things up?’ OK, because if you change the calendar, you do mess things up, but then maybe that’s what you want to do.

So this brings in where your Foundation now comes into play?

When I got started and made the discovery of the 12:60 timing frequency, I was coming from a place studying the Mayan calendar. When the Christians got to Mexico and destroyed Mayan civilization, the one thing they knew was that the Mayan calendar was more accurate then their calendar.

You can go to Kitt Peak Observatory, outside of Tucson, Arizona, big powerful astronomical observatory up there. Incidentally, where the Vatican has its telescope. At Kitt Peak you’ll see a mural, a mosaic, on the wall of the information center. It’s a mural that depicts Mayan civilization and it has this little text there that says ‘The Mayan calendar was more scientific than the calendar that we use today.’ Well, if it was more scientific than the calendar we use today, and we’re the most scientific civilization that ever existed, HA HA HA, then why don’t we use a more scientific calendar – the Mayan calendar?

Well, I had studied the Mayan calendar and that was basically where I was coming from in 1989 and I said, ‘Well the first thing we have to do is get on a harmonic standard, 13-months/28-days.’ I knew nothing at all at that point about the earlier calendar reform movement.

Did you at first know about the Mayan calendar or did you know about 13 Moon calendars?

I knew about the Mayan calendar and I knew that the 13 Moon Calendar was one of the Mayan calendars. The 13 Moon Calendar was known by the Maya as the Tun Uc, which means the count of 7, 7 times 4 is 28. Incidentally it was the calendar that the Aztecs were using at the time of the conquest. The Inca people, and all the Andean people of South America, still use that calendar. In fact, this is year 5, 511 of the 13-month/28-day calendar from South America. The Druids use that calendar, as I said, it is ancient and it’s timeless. It’s been used since ancient times. It’s timeless because it is perfect harmony. Harmony doesn’t have time.

You’ve studied the Mayan calendar so much, could you please tell us about how it works?

Well, the Mayan calendar, actually in the hey-day of Mayan civilization, which was about 13, 14 centuries ago, the Maya were using maybe up to 17 calendars. This is an interesting thing, you say, ‘Well, why were they using that many calendars? What’s the deal?’ Well, they knew something about time that we don’t know. We think time is something you measure on a clock and you can reduce down to nanoseconds. We think that time is absolutely linear, this doctrine of inexorability, that we are going continuously from the past into a future, and material progress is inexorable. This concept of time is very linear. Well, to the Maya, time was not mechanical and time was not linear. Time was the frequency of synchronization. Time is what counts for synchronicity. The more synchronicity there is, the more in time and in tune with time that you are. A concept of time that is linear and mechanistic makes synchronicity an oddball thing.

So the Maya didn’t buy into the concept of past/present/future?

Well, that’s an interesting thing. They had a concept of past and future, but they had also much more the idea of cycles, or cyclical order, or what I’ve come to call, synchronic order. The thing is this, why would you use more than one calendar? Why would you use 17 calendars? The more standards that you use that are all harmonized with one fundamental standard, then the greater the synchronicity you will get.

So, you have solar calendars, lunar calendars, different kinds of terrestrial calendars, calendars of the cycles of planets, Mars, Venus cycles. You have calendars that are working with the Pleiadian and different stellar and galactic cycles. You put all those together and you start to discover enormous patterns of synchronicity. So what I found was the basic tool that they were using is the 260-day cycle, which they call the Tzolkin, the sacred count. You correlate the 260-day cycle with the 365-day cycle and you get a lot of interesting patterns. You get a basic one of 52 years. It takes 52 years for a 260-day cycle and a 365-day cycle to go through all of their permutations. That’s very interesting. Then you get a lot of smaller sub-cycles within that. So I had already begun to perceive that this was a whole different order of time.

In 1989, I saw that modern civilization, well from a Mayan point of view, modern civilization, from a point of view of time, is primitive and stunted and also deviant. It’s following this mechanistic concept and it actually believes that it’s time, but whereas for the Mayans, time was patterns of synchronicity. How do you synchronize your mind, your biology, your consciousness, with the natural order, with the cosmic order? This is how you get cosmic consciousness and for the Mayans that was a prime value.

This struck me very strongly and I saw that modern civilization is this gigantic, runaway, Babylonian monster that is chewing up the Earth. It’s chewing up the Earth because it’s running on what we call artificial time, it’s an artificial civilization. It creates an artificial order of reality called the technosphere and this technosphere, like some giant hybrid monster, straddles the Earth, munching forests, creating ozone holes and global warming, demanding more and more blood in exchange for money, creating wars and polluting everything. That’s all due to artificial time. You get on an airplane and all the ads are for watches and computers. I saw all this and said, ‘This has to stop.’ It’s like you create a machine and you put it on this kind of automatic timing thing and no one’s running the show.

No one can stop it.

No one can stop it. So how do you throw a monkey wrench into the works? Well, how you throw the monkey wrench into the works is you take out the fundamental macro program, which is the calendar. That’s the monkey wrench in the works. I saw that back in 1989 and 1990, and I worked out a lot more mathematics of the Mayan calendar, but I knew this 13-month/28-day calendar was really the ticket to replace this Gregorian calendar. I didn’t know in an uphill struggle it was going to be. I started telling people about this and they all looked at me like I was crazy, but I got a very strong sense of urgency. Then in 1993 I decoded a Mayan prophecy, which said basically that: the human species was operating in error and unless it reverted to natural time and abandoned the artificial time, it would destroy itself by, our favorite date, 2012. Which is not very far away.

When you say you decoded the prophecy, what do you mean? How did you do that?

Well, in Palenque, down in Mexico, I don’t know if you saw the story in The New York Times?

I actually did see that.

  • EDITOR NOTE: The New York Times published an article on December 23, 2002, FOREIGN DESK titled “Palenque Journal; Hailing the Solstice and Telling Time, Mayan Style.” The article was written by Tim Weiner and focused on 2012 prophecy and the Mayan site of Palenque.

Yes, OK, in Palenque, down in Mexico, well it was very interesting to me that The New York Times actually covered that story, you know, the 10-year countdown to 2012.

Very good!

Yes, and that’s MAINSTREAM!

That’s very exciting that it got in there, even a day after the Winter solstice, right?

Exactly. Well, the publicist that published my book, Time and the Technosphere, emailed me and said, ‘This Mexico correspondent from The New York Times is interested in your book and wants to talk.’

In Palenque, which is really a prime Mayan site, lived the greatest and most interesting of all the ancient Mayans. That was a man who came to be identified as someone named Pakal or the Great Pakal or Pakal Votan. His fame rested on this fact, in 1952 an archeologist discovered a tomb, down in the bottom of one of the great pyramids of Palenque, the Pyramid of the Inscriptions. It took him 3 years, starting in 1949, to dig and then on June 15 of 1952, he finally opened this big, big, huge, stone door like in an Indiana Jones movie, and there was the most spectacular thing you could see: a big, big under ground crypt.

Oh wow.

This guy, the archaeologist, who was a Marxist from Cuba, he wrote later on, ‘When I opened that door, I could feel the thoughts of the last people in there, over a thousand years ago, escaping.’

Oh my gosh.

Gives you the chills, you know? That’s interesting. What were those thoughts?

It hadn’t been opened since when?

That stone door had been sealed in 692 and here is this sarcophagus, which had this huge, huge tomb lid, which is now very famous. It’s on the cover of my book, The Mayan Factor, and its towards the end of the Time and Technosphere, I reproduced it there, the Sarcophagus Lid of the Tomb of Pakal Votan. That sarcophagus lid and also a lot of stuff on the side of that lid and on that tomb, a lot of symbols and hieroglyphic scripts and so on, that’s what I decoded.

Oh, the Mayan language was recorded in glyphs and …?

Yes, hieroglyphs and things like that, and also just symbols, even beyond language. Plus, I discovered this, OK, here’s this tomb dedicated in 692, nobody knew about its existence until 1952. I’m standing there in 1989, 1990 making this discovery, 12:60 timing frequency, artificial time. Natural timing frequency, if there’s an artificial one there must be a natural one, I discovered is 13:20. That’s the basis of the 260-day cycle, which correlates all synchronicity.

OK, 12:60 and 13:20, and there I am in 1993 with this prophecy, decoding this tomb. OK get this, I realize this tomb was dedicated in 692, and discovered in 1952, 1260 years later, 12:60. 692, when that tomb was dedicated, until 2012, the closing of the cycle, 1320 years, 13:20. So, I said, ‘Oh, I get it, that’s part of the prophecy right there.’ The prophecy says that the discovery of the tomb in 1952 will say that humanity is living in the tomb of 12:60 artificial time. 2012 means that you have from 1952 until 2012, 60 years for humanity to get from 12:60 time to 13:20 time.

b Wow.[/b]

So, we’re only 10 years away. The 13 Moon Calendar of course is correlated to the 260-day cycle, so it’s a pure 13:20 timing frequency. That’s what is required for humanity to be in that cycle. That’s what’s required by 2012 if we don’t want to destroy ourselves.

This is all very interesting, a couple of different points I’d like to cover. In the article you just referred to, The New York Times article, it’s mentioned about the Mayan Long Count, I’m sure you can explain how 2012 fits into the Long Count, but the writer, Tim Weiner, mentions that someone else says, there were supposedly 4 other Mayan Long Counts before and that this one, closing in 2012, is not significant.

Yes he brings in my old friend, Moises Morales. He brings him as the skeptic.

Yes exactly, and then he kinds of ends the article on a skeptic note.

Yes that’s de rigueur for journalism. OK, but the fact the first person that’s quoted and cited is José Argüelles is all that matters because that’s the first thing the reader reads. I could tell from my email correspondence with Tim that he was definitely on our side.

Well, that’s good to know, but what did that quote mean about 4 other Long Counts?

Now the Long Count is the count of days. Literally a count of days that goes from August 13, 3113 B.C., and often you’ll see people say 3114 B.C., but August 13, 3113 to December 21, 2012. That is the count of days between those 2 points, which is 1,872,000 days. That creates a cycle, which is subdivided into 13 parts called baktuns, or into 260 parts called katuns, which are about 20 years. The last katun began early in 1993 and ends on December 21, 2012. OK, now when Moises says that there were 4 other ones before that, what he’s saying is that there were 4 other cycles of 13 baktuns prior to this one, which means there were 5 cycles.

And this is the 5th?

Yes, this is the 5th. Those 5 cycles, that creates the 26,000-year cycle. So, even though Moises is pooh-poohing all of that, he’s saying there were 4 previous ones, this is the 5th one. 5 of these cycles create what’s called the Pleiadian cycle of 26,000 years. The fact of the matter is where are at the end of that 26,000 year cycle. Not only that, but we’re at the end of a 5,125-year cycle. We’re at the end of just under a 26,000-year cycle and we’re at the end of a 104,000-year cycle. 4 of those 26,000-year cycles create a bigger cycle of 104,000 years. So, all of this is coming to an end. Even though, Moises says, ‘Oh, nothing will happen, everything is just like the same.’ Well, that’s not quite correct, because we do live in unusual times.

You can go back and look at this 12:60 frequency, the frequency of artificial mechanized time, which was mentally set in place at the very beginning of history. Its interesting that the Mayans say that history began in 3113 B.C. even though there weren’t any Mayans around to tell you that. Then we find out that first city of history, Uruk, was at 3100 B.C. Well that’s just 13 years later and that’s when the Babylonians came up with the 24-hour concept. So, you have the Babylonians in the Old World with this 24-hour concept and you have the Mayans in the New World with this 13:20 concept. So, you can begin to see, well maybe there is some, much larger kind of drama going on.

Can talk about what you think is corresponding to 2012 with the Earth and the Galaxy, as a whole evolution, something bigger happening than just with humanity?

There is something a lot bigger happening, which gets to the point why the Mayans were here. When you look at the globe and see where the Mayans were and see where the Old World and the Babylonian civilization was and you see well they were far away on the other side of the ocean in the jungle there, you couldn’t find them. Just like that tomb of Pakal Votan, you couldn’t find it. Then you see, well, it’s interesting that here was this Mayan civilization that had its hey-day between 435 A.D to about 830 A.D., around 400 years when it really really went to town. What was that about? When you look at that, when they really went to town they were using all these different calendars, creating these very sophisticated sculptures with all these hieroglyphs. You can find dates that go back hundreds of millions of years, or even billions of years, even 25 billion years which is way before even what we say BIG BANG, what was that about?

Where do you see those dates?

In some of the Mayan sites.


Yes, and you say, ‘Who were these Mayans?’ You look at all the civilizations on Earth; no other civilization comes even close to the Mayan civilization with this phenomenal concept of time. To some degree, the Hindus have great cycles and so on, which rival the Mayans, but no one had the Mayan concept of all the different times or the synchronic order of time, and one other feature is that the Mayan mathematics and calendar is based on 20 and not 10 or 12.


So, the purpose was to leave these signs and clues about the end of the cycle. So they left these clues. People like Pakal Votan left his tomb, which was then actually a prophecy which 40 years later after it was discovered I was able to decode. Already in my book, The Mayan Factor, in 1987, I had already put the 2012 thing on the map and brought that to public attention.

Now I see the Mayan civilization, the Mayan culture, they purposely left this time information for the present moment to see if we could figure out what we have to do. So that’s what I figured out, that we have to get back into the natural time. What happens in 2012, isn’t just a closing out of what we call the cycle of history, it’s also an evolutionary moment in the evolution of the Sun. You have to remember our Sun is a star. All stars have their own progressive stages of evolution and we all know that in the last 15 years the Sun has been acting most peculiarly. It acts more peculiar every day, which is going to be coming more and more dramatic as we get to 2012, which incidentally completes the next Sun spot cycle.

So what you have is an alignment of the Earth and Sun with Galactic Center, which is in the area of Sagittarius. John Major Jenkins has written a book about that, the 2012 galactic synchronization. We’re approaching a moment of tremendous solar and galactic synchronization. Well, what does that mean for us? It means that life on Earth is going to be evolving and mutating. So, we have to be ready for that. This whole artificial junkie civilization, this technosphere, is like a big tinker toy set. It’s going to come down. It’s starting to come down right now. The first big signal was the 9/11. The question is: is it going to come down because of war and natural disasters, which have been engendered by human species operating on wrong time and artificial technology? Or is it going to come down because the human species got the intelligence to figure out that it had to change its frequency?

This gets back to the point of the calendar. It looks like a very simple little device, but the point of it is to change the frequency of human consciousness so that the human consciousness is in tune with the natural cosmic order of reality and in that way it can become in tune with the natural cosmic order in time to be ready for 2012.

That’s why this 2004 date is so critical. Really it’s the last moment, the last opportunity to get the calendar change and to give the human species enough time, it’s like eight years, to shift its consciousness. A lot can happen in eight years if you are in the right frequency. A lot can happen in the wrong frequency too. If we continue eight years after 2004 in the wrong frequency, then your 2012 worst case scenarios are a sure bet.

What are the Foundations plans for once you reach your goal date of 2004? If the 13 Moon Calendar hasn’t been accepted globally?

Well, we’re confident that now, literally, this is an idea who’s time has come. We’ve seen, especially since the 9/11, finally in this country, people waking up to this calendar thing. We have a big movement already throughout Latin America, Japan, Russia, Western Europe, many places on the planet. It’s starting because of the Internet and our Web site.

Yes, it’s exploding!

Yes, it’s exploding. There are probably 150,000 to 200,000 people who actually are following the calendar and that’s increasing greatly. All we really need is an informed critical minority who is able to be properly vocal and vociferous and knows how to use the media when it comes to that point in 2004 to make it effective. We’ve been to the United Nations. We’ve been to the Vatican. Kofi Anan knows very well about our work. I’ve got several letters from his office saying that he has received our material, knows what we are doing and applauds our efforts. But like any other human being in 12:60 institutions, as they say, his hands are tied.

That’s a great point. So by 2004, could it be that X amount of people pick up on the change and X amount of people don’t and then something happens with a division?

Yes, it could be like that. You know, right now because of this impending war on Iraq, you already see a type of groundswell of peace movements occurring unlike anything since the ‘60’s. I think by the time we get to 2004 it will dwarf the ‘60’s and it’s not just demonstrators, but it’s people like James Twyman and his spoon bending experiment and the exercises he’s doing in Jerusalem on February 9th. * EDITOR NOTE: On February 9th, 2003, over 100,00 people were organized in a meditation aimed to bring peace in the Middle East. For more info:

So that’s more sophisticated than just demonstrating in the streets. So the point of the Great Calendar Change is to catalyze all of those different elements, just to say ‘We’re going to do this and this is the way that we’ll affect a permanent change in the field of consciousness.’ I’m quite certain that we will be able to get a major coalition across the board from grassroots peace groups to the type of effort of like what James Twyman is doing and understand that we really have to change consciousness and that changing the calendar is a permanent change in consciousness.

What about the big governments and what not?

That’s an interesting issue there. I’m quite sure that actually we will have some governments already behind this. We have a strong possibility starting with Brazil. Brazil also happens to be the largest Catholic country in the world.

And one of the biggest examples of the economy crumbling.

Yes, exactly. I think we’ll have some South American governments that will start getting behind this. We’ve spent quite a bit of time in South America during the 1990’s and there are very active people down there. They know what the political needs are. So in any case, I see that regardless of where the governments are, this is going to be one of those events of enormous historical significance because it is actually going to be, what we might call, a very interesting peoples revolution. A revolution in time. I think that is what is going to carry the day. One of the moves that we are putting into motion is this as well: we are going to establish the point that the calendar that you follow gives you sovereignty according to that calendar.

Sovereignty - meaning?

Meaning that you have your rights according to that calendar. So if we say that we now recognize that there is a new community on Earth that is placing its concept of it’s sovereignty in the 13 Moon Calendar and no longer recognizes the legitimacy of the Gregorian calendar, according to the Charter of Human Rights, we are saying that our rights have to be respected following this calendar. It’s kind of like passive resistance. We’re not in the Gregorian world anymore.

Off the grid?

Yes, off the grid. Also every institution that exists has its legitimacy in the Gregorian calendar. To take away the Gregorian calendar, those institutions no longer have legitimacy. So this is another point that we are going to be pushing as we get into that 2004 territory. So what we’re saying is we know that we are a very, very large planet-wide force. People are picking up on it. People are singing about it – you have rap and rave groups that are into this calendar and realize that it’s a cultural and revolutionary tool.

It’s a cultural phenomenon and a cultural revolution. We will establish a new community and this community will establish its own legitimacy. We feel that also the events of the world between now and 2004 are such that increasing numbers of the mainstream are going to see the sanity and the correct morality of doing this. This is a way in which we can actually right our wrongs; that we can give ourselves another way to start. We’ve put forth a Peace Plan with this too that says, first of all that on the Day-Out-of-Time, July 25, 2004, that we should call a universal cease-fire. We want to see a universal cease-fire that will observe the universal change in time.

We are also calling for a Universal Religion Council where we’ll have leading representatives of all the world religions, as well as indigenous leaders to kind of referee it, that will just come together on this one point and agree that to change the calendar will give the human race the opportunity to stop in its’ tracks, to stop shooting for a little bit, to reorganize its’ priorities, and to make a better world.

Spiritual unity is the very foundation of this. If we can get representatives of all the major religions to agree on this, then they’re agreeing on a point that’s beyond all of their dogmatic and doctrinal differences for the spiritual betterment of humanity. So we want to emphasize that this is a peaceful cultural revolution, this revolution of time, and it’s a profoundly spiritual revolution.

13 Moon/28-day time is time of perfect harmony. Harmony is peace. Peace is a spiritual thing so that’s basically how we’re looking at it at this point. I know, as I’ve said, the populous aspect of this is growing enormously. This is the one untried solution. We’ll probably be able to get UNESCO behind this if not the United Nations itself. We’ve been in touch with UNESCO and UNESCO thinks that this is a very interesting idea.

I applaud that and hope to see it pick up there. What are some of your other concepts? For example when you talk about “time is art,” and “time is the forth dimension,” how does this apply to what’s happening?

OK, first of all, time is art. In the present society, time is money. That’s everywhere and everyone knows that. Whatever you do, it’s ‘How much does it cost?’ and if you don’t make it to work, ‘How much will that cost?’ Everything is prorated down to money, so it’s a purely materialistic concept. That is the nature of it. A calendar means an account book. There is a move to change the name of calendar to 13 Moon Syncronometer, the measure of your synchronicity.

Oh, you wish to change the word too? Your Web site ( still uses the word ‘calendar’?

No, I’m just saying that there’s some movement, I wouldn’t be surprised if that gained more popularity.

That the word ‘calendar’ is just abandoned completely?

Yes, exactly. So when you’re living in 13:20 time (12:60 is time is money), everything is harmonic. Harmony is art. Harmony is the basis of art. The law of time, it’s an interesting formulation says: energy factored by time equals art. That’s why, as we say, ‘You’ve never seen an ugly sunset.’ Even spiders, scorpions and such things are fascinatingly artistic or aesthetic. Scorpions do this dance and you look at their anatomy – everything is built…


Artfully. Exactly. So in a 13 Moon/28-day society the value of time is how artistic, how artful, how artfully you do it, how artistically, how aesthetic is it. That’s why the 13 Moon Calendar Change Peace Movement organizational front is referred to as PAN (Planet Art Network).

The Planet Art Network is the organization around the world that promotes the calendar and the idea that when we are all living once again in natural time, when we have become once again one human family united in one common time, in a time of harmony, and we are now what we know as a global species living in a global society, we will transform that global society into one huge Planet Art Network. Since we’ve made such a mess of the planet we have to clean it up. The goal will be to make the planet an exquisite work of art. That’s the value of being in this 13:20 time of harmony.

Here’s another thing: time is the fourth dimension. What we’ve discovered is that we measure what we think of as everyday life, the time that we’re spending right now, as I’m talking to you Robert, is that this time is the biological cyclical time. When we say where is time located? You can’t find it, see it, or touch it. You can see space. You can smell it or whatever. Time is a whole other thing. Time is of the mind. When we’re actually living in natural time then our mind is released into its natural dimension: the fourth dimension. The third dimension is the dimension of space. The fourth dimension is the dimension of time and the mind. That is where all art comes from and that is where all art takes you. You know like if you’re listening to music or playing music. If you’re playing music, then you go right out there. You know where you’re going and that’s the fourth dimension. That’s where you are.

Also, there is a relationship between natural time and telepathy. Time is the frequency of synchronization. That’s another thing about the moment of the calendar change – to synchronize as many human beings as possible in a single moment and then have them take the next step in a new time. So the synchronization factor is very important. That’s like when you’re at a concert, or whatever, when the music is hot and it’s on.

Ah, “the Group Mind experience.” That’s something that our audience is very in tune with. (Laughs)

Exactly. The Group Mind experience is a mini-aspect of what’s called the Noospehere: the mind of the planet. So when we’re all on the same natural time, in the 13:20 frequency, then all of our minds are going to become freer and freer. We’re going to find that we are recovering our telepathy. You’ll notice that if you watch ants they know exactly what they’re doing. They go in file and they don’t run into each other. How do they do that? They’ve got a whole telepathic structure that they’re operating with which is the same as their order of society. The more that human beings got progressively materialistic and the more we got immersed in this 12:60 time, the more we gave up our natural telepathy.

So we found that by working with the synchronic order of time, beginning with the synchronization of a 260 and a 365-day cycle, we began to find that we could begin to open up the field of telepathy. This is an interesting point because we find that we’ve created a civilization today that creates more waste than it can get rid of and consumes resources faster than it can replenish. That’s disaster. Even if we stop the machine, as it were, kill the beast, we still have this huge mess that we need to replenish. We know that in the brief history of technology that we haven’t found any real cures for anything and technology can’t solve the problems it creates because it creates more technology. That is always problematic to some degree. What can solve problems is group telepathic mind. The group telepathic mind, like the James Twyman experiment, basically it’s an exercise in some type of group telepathic mind to affect the human mental field to stop the war.

Do you think that James’ experiment will have some success?

I think that it will have some effect.

They’re trying to “bend spoons” literally, and then use that technique?

Yes, that’s the principle, bending spoons, and then applying that to a larger scale problem. If you have an experiment like that, the question is how do you stabilize that and make it an everyday practice? That’s why I believe that you need a collective mass into the 13:20 common time frequency, then that becomes a part of the belief system. That experiment is operating in a field where the predominant belief system doesn’t actually support that, but if you have a predominate belief system that supports that, then you’ll be able to make a lot of amazing changes.

We’ve developed what we might call ‘proto-telepathic technologies’ that are available through the Foundation. I’ve talked a lot with Russian scientists, who are generally way ahead of us in the West, in the concept of time and there are some Russian scientists who equate time with telepathy. Time is actually instantaneously infinite. The moment that we are experiencing while we’re talking here right now, whatever time it is there in New York, 9 or 10 o’clock, and maybe over in Moscow it’s 6 in the morning, but actually, telepathically it’s all the same instant.

Time is the speed of telepathy. So when we are in natural time and everything is synchronized, and our mind is synchronized with natural time, then our mind is synchronized with the speed of telepathy. When we begin to understand that, and then also the spoon bending thing, that we can affect objects in some way, that we can focus telepathic thought wave to go into, for instance, radio active isotopes and neutralize them or into a cancer and neutralize it, then we could heal ourselves. We could heal the planet. Fundamentally, all of our diseases, all of the planetary problems come from the fact that we are out of phase and we are out of phase because we are in the wrong frequency. No one else is creating this problem. The turtles aren’t creating it, the dolphins aren’t. They’re all dieing from it.

The problem is being created by humans. Everything about humans is out of phase, absolutely everything. It will continue to be out of phase as long as we’re living in the wrong time. We will never solve our problems by living in the wrong time. The only way we are going to solve our problems is by getting into natural time and this is a universal solution that includes everyone whether you are a witch, a Muslim, whatever your sexual predilection is – whatever you are, whatever you do, whatever belief system you’re in. It unifies absolutely all of it. It’s an absolutely synchronizing and unifying factor.

So when we get into this natural time, we will begin to see that we really were in a state of disease. We were the planetary cancer. Our idea of globalization was the most cancerous concept to the biosphere that you could ever have imagined. It was a mental concept that was formed by ‘time is money’ and was translated into ‘profit motive machines’ and ripping off natural resources and translated and made pretty into concepts of marketing.

Quite a mess.

And that’s what we’re all supposedly out to defend? If we could just get the point across that this is the most radical fundamental solution, it will change our consciousness forever. It will ultimately pull the rug out from the existing order. It would give us a chance to rebuild civilization, which is already a chaotic mess and really deserves to be scrapped since all of its ideologies have failed. It gives us the opportunity to reconstruct our human culture, human civilization and the environment. To reconstruct it in a harmonic basis where art is the supreme value, where telepathy will become the predominant technology and that’s the whole basis of our next stage of evolution.

Is this telepathic, unified…?

A telepathically, unified field where we are once again placing ourselves in the artistic, aesthetic norm of the cosmos and we are becoming cosmic beings. That’s what we really want – way deep down in our hearts – we want to become cosmic beings. We want to become a cosmic intelligence, a walking walkie-talkie.

And it’s the longing for the archaic where we were maybe once on the path.

Yes exactly. We were once on the path and now we get to be rejoined with that path.

I wanted to ask you, another very popular person out there with 2012 theories was Terrence McKenna. Did you ever do any work with Terrence? Did you two ever cross paths?

Yes, Terrence. Yes, we crossed paths in the middle ‘80’s. We spent time together at the Ojai Foundation out in California when Joan Halifax had that place out there in the mid ‘80’s. We crossed paths, crossed mushrooms (laughs).

Beautiful! I wanted to get your angle on Terrence’s Time Wave theory and his view of the psychedelic experience.

We connected on that and it was very interesting because before Terrence knew anything about the Mayan calendar he got the 2012 thing.

Through the Time Wave?

Yes, it all connected with the Time Wave, with the I-Ching, with the DNA, with the Mayan calendar. I believe we viewed each other as fellow travelers.

In Terrence’s ponderings about 2012, he always seemed to echo very similar statements about the ‘end of time as we know it’, but I feel like he didn’t touch on the point that, yes, it is the end of time, it’s what you are saying – that it is the next stage of evolution. He didn’t talk much about the calendar change and I was wondering how in tune with that he was?

At the end, I hadn’t seen him for a while and he knew that I was traveling around the planet promoting the calendar change and he thought that I should take a break and enjoy myself more. (Laughs) I couldn’t do that though by that time, I was and I still am, a messenger.

My mission is Closing the Cycle. That’s the whole point of the mission now and I was very happy that I got that kind of press in The New York Times because that’s exactly what it’s about. I’ll tell you what was very interesting about that New York Times thing, on the front cover, on the front page (that article was on page 4), but the lead to it was the photo on the front page.

On the very front page?

Yes, on the very front page, there was a photo of a solstice ceremony at the top of the Pyramid of the Sun in Teotihuacan. It said there that the solstice ceremony was in preparation for the

10-year countdown to the Closing of the Cycle. That was interesting because earlier that year, that was December 22nd for the solstice thing, on March 3rd I was on top of the Pyramid of the Sun (where that solstice ceremony was) with about 500 or 600 people and I was being honored by 9 indigenous elders for being the Closer of the Cycle.

And when was that ceremony?

That was on March 3rd of 2002. It was very interesting to me to see that The New York Times had this photo of it on the front page with this big story about the Closing of the Cycle which was right on the same pyramid where the indigenous elders were honoring me for being the Closer of the Cycle. I figured, well there must be some magic at work.

Now how did that come into being that you were recognized at this ceremony?

  • EDITOR NOTE: In March 2002 a group of indigenous elders representing the ancient tradition of Mexico recognized José Argüelles as Valum Votan, the closer of the cycle and the bringer of the knowledge of the galactic Maya in a ceremony at Teotihuacan, Mexico.

Our movement is pretty active down in Mexico and we were down in Mexico giving a 7-day event, we call it the Earth Wizard’s Seminary. One of the activists down there – I had wanted to do some kind of ceremony down at the Pyramid of the Sun – anyway, well it got out of my hands and it got into the hands of one of our people there and he thought that the ceremony should be in my honor.

He talked to one of the indigenous elders and they said yes. They got 9 elders together. There’s a cave beneath the Pyramid of the Sun. The elders went into this cave 4 days before the ceremony and all the Spirits said, ‘Quick you’ve got to do the ceremony.’ It was quite a moving experience because when my path with all of this began, it began at that very same pyramid, the Pyramid of the Sun, Teotihuacan, in 1953; one year after that tomb was opened.

And how old were you?

I was 14. I was on top of that pyramid. I had lived in Mexico my earliest years and then circumstances had me up in Minnesota, but my father, who was Mexican, finally had a chance to get back to Mexico. He drove me and my twin brother down to Mexico and all I wanted to do was to get to those pyramids. I remember I got there and I saw the Pyramid of the Sun and I remember that’s all I wanted to do was run up to it. I ran up all of those steps and got to the top before my father, my brother and my Uncle. I stood up on that pyramid and I saw those little people down there. There weren’t many people there then. I remembered I had been in Mexico City and thought, ‘Wow, what a contrast!?’

Then I had this whole flash of the cosmic knowledge that had built Teotihuacan and what a great contrast it was with the knowledge that built modern Mexico City. I thought that the contrast is so great and the knowledge that built this was so much greater than the knowledge that was building Sears and Roebucks.


Then I had this whole visionary white light flash type of experience and I knew that I was supposed to remember this knowledge and bring it back to modern humanity because I thought it would be useful. That was a vision and a kind of vow to myself.

So 49 years later, here I am at the same place. I thought it was going to be a ceremony that I was doing and there were a lot of people 500,600,700 people and there I am with these 9 shamanic elders and we’re marching down this big, big avenue there and they take me over there and give me this whole initiation. I’m thinking, ‘Wow, my vision really came true!’

Wow that is quite impressive!

It really is and then to see The New York Times article. What that told me is: it is really worthwhile to hold onto your dreams. When you have a vision or a dream to…

To stay true to it…

To stay true it. Go follow it, see what happens. It took me to a lot of places and transformed my life again and again, but that was definitely the thing to do. If you have a vision or a dream, hold onto it, go follow it, and don’t let it go because it grows in power. When you have a vision and you hold it, it seems like you’re having a lot of hard times, but it’s actually growing in power. You can’t see or measure that power, but its clear that that power goes out and that’s the real power, SPIRIT POWER, because you stay true.

Those are beautiful words and very much similar to the whole concept of living in the NOW with time, because living your dream is essentially being in that, attaining that moment that you’re shooting for.

Yes exactly. Just right here in the present moment.

That’s beautiful, if I could now ask you to explain the Wavespell and Dreamspell. Is your Dreamspell calendar directly related to the Mayan calendar or have there been any advances/modifications to it?

That’s an interesting point. When the ceremony happened on March 3, 2002, when I was honored, they gave me this beautiful ceremonial staff, obsidian they call it. They honored me because they said they knew in the traditions, all the times, at the end of a cycle, at this time, that there would be someone who would come that would renew the knowledge. So they realized that that was me. I remembered afterwards, I said to the main guy who organized it, well I called him up and I wanted to thank him, and he said, ‘No, no, no. The honors ours, any thing you ever want we’re ready at your service.’

That’s beautiful.

Yes, so that’s an interesting point. The Dreamspell and the 13 Moon Calendar that we’ve got going now, which is being followed by more and more people around the world, is based on the mathematics of the Mayan calendar, but it’s as they say a different count from the Mayan Long Count. So, while there are a lot of indigenous elders who are getting really mad at me and there’s a lot of people that I call neo-Mayanists who follow the Long Count. I don’t have any argument with the Long Count. In fact, the Long Count is the basis of 2012.


OK, but what I discovered when following my discovery of the 12:60 and the 13:20 frequencies was another application. And that application is called the Dreamspell. The Dreamspell is how you understand the existence of the synchronic order, of the patterns of synchronicity. So I look at the traditional count, the Long Count, as the past, it’s the validity of the past, the archaic past taking us down to 2012, while the Dreamspell is the dispensation from the future.

When I started work on the Dreamspell, it’s based on all the same mathematical codes of the Maya, and the same 260 count and the 20 symbols and all that, but it’s based on a different count. I had clear guidance at that time in 1990 and 1991, when I was working through these codes, I had clear guidance that said I was supposed to bring something into existence that was universal, that didn’t use the Mayan names. A universal language so that anyone on the planet can get it and not think it was some indigenous thing. People can get tripped out on exotic things.

Well, I’ve seen on your Web site the names for the 13 galactic tones and the 20 solar seals. Are those names you coined or invented?

Yes, those were meditated on. I meditated a lot on the Mayan symbols and then went to the most universal place with it and so that’s where that came from. The mathematics are the same as the Mayan calendar, but the names of the symbols, and also the patterns of synchronicity that I began to discover through the intermeshing of the 13 Moon and the 260-day cycle, those patterns are where you get things like the Wavespell and so on.

The word Dreamspell came to me in a dream. This very interesting dream in which I was first with these people 13,000 years ago and then I was with them again in the present moment. I was trying to help them remember what happened 13,000 years ago, like they were having some amnesia about it. I was saying, ‘Look 13,000 years ago, we all knew this together, we were in one Dreamspell, then that Dreamspell broke, and now we are in another Dreamspell.’ So for instance right now, we are living in the Dreamspell of History.

Which closes in 2012?

Yes, closes in 2012, but we need to shatter or dissolve the Dreamspell of History before then. The cycle of history closes in 2012, but if we are still in the Dreamspell of History in 2012, we won’t be in 2013. So, the Dreamspell literally refers to the common dream a people is living. A spell. It lasts for a spell of time. It’s the dream that a people is commonly living. So the dream that the people of the Earth today are commonly living is called the Dreamspell of History. Its held in place by the 12:60 timing frequency and its principle macro-instrument is the Gregorian calendar. So when we talk about the Great Calendar Change of 2004, we’re also talking about high magic. If you want to dissolve a spell, if you want to dissolve the Dreamspell of History, then dissolve the calendar that holds that spell in place. I’ve seen people go crazy trying to think what life would be like without February 14 or July 4.

Right, no more barbeques?

No more patriotism. So you can see how that is all a Dreamspell. The calendar change is to break the Dreamspell of History and enter into what’s called the Galactic Dreamspell. And that means we are going into galactic consciousness. The Earth is part of the Solar System. The Solar System is part of the Galaxy and we’re going to evolve our consciousness telepathically into galactic consciousness. So we want to break the Dreamspell of History like a big act of magic and then begin the Galactic Dreamspell, the Dreamspell of Galactic Culture, where everybody’s got their new name, their galactic signature. Like you’re White Electric World-bridger, and I’m Blue Spectral Monkey. My assistant, Stephanie, is Red Electric Serpent.

Now did you develop that naming sequence?

Yes, that came from meditating on the 20 seals and the 13 galactic tones (the 13 numbers). The 13 tones create a Wavespell. For instance, today, the day that we’re recording this is Red Resonant Dragon, so you deal with three terms there. The color RED. Then RESONANT, which refers to the number 7. And DRAGON, which refers to one of the 20 seals. There are 4 different colors: red, white, blue and yellow. There are 13 tones, 1-13; the MAGNETIC is 1, the 13th is the COSMIC, the 7th is the RESONANT, and 20 solar seals, icons or tribes. Today is RED DRAGON, tomorrow is WHITE WIND, and after that is BLUE NIGHT, and then you have YELLOW SEED. The four colors create what is called a harmonic. The 13 tones, 1-13, create a Wavespell, a spell of time that’s a wave of 13 days or it could be 13 Moons, or it could be 13 years because it’s all like a fractal.

Is that what you referred to earlier, as the Tzolkin?

Tzolkin (pronounces correctly). Yes, in The Mayan Factor, I define the Tzolkin actually as a harmonic module because I saw it had many more uses then a calendar. I actually did a book before the Mayan Factor, my mind-breaker book, which is still available, called Earth Ascending. In Earth Ascending I discovered that the Tzolkin is actually a form of the cosmic code. I saw within its number permutations and its structural order, that it had all sorts of things locked into it, including the mathematical structure of the DNA.

So anyway, I had been working on this stuff for a long time and when I was getting down to the Dreamspell phase of it, I was trying to simplify it down, and language it. The languaging is, like I said, from the future, Dreamspell is from the future. Wavespell is from the future because we need to have a new dispensation literally. That’s exactly what the calendar change is about: giving humanity a new dispensation.

New languages?

New languages.

New communication forms?

New communication. New way of organizing society.

But if we are unifying as ONE, don’t the different galactic signatures then tend to separate people once again?

No, not particularly because there are 260 signatures, which means that there are really only 260 people (laughs). OK, but your signature changes on your birthday every year.

Oh, so you rotate through all of them?

You rotate through 52 of them, which is 1/5 of them. So that means there are only 5 people. We did an experiment down in Chile, back at the end of 1999. We did a 7-week Earth Wizards seminary with about 150 people from around 20 different countries. We were all living just on our galactic signatures. Everyone’s galactic signature puts him or her in one of 5 different Earth families.

In other words, each person goes through 52 permutations from the time they were born until they’re 52. OK, there are 5 possibilities of that. There are 20 seals, and 4 colors: red, white, blue, and yellow. That goes into 20 5 times. So that means there’s 5 possibilities of Earth families. You and me for instance, we’re in the Cardinal family: White World-bridger, Blue Monkey, Yellow Warrior, Red Dragon.

That’s an Earth family?

Yes, that’s an Earth Family. There are 5 Earth families. There’s the Polar Earth family, which is the Red Serpent, the White Dog, the Blue Eagle, and the Yellow Sun. The Cardinal Earth family, which is the Red Dragon, the White World-bridger, the Blue Monkey, and the Yellow Warrior. The Core Earth family, which is the Red Earth, the White Wind, the Blue Hand, and the Yellow Human. The Signal Earth family, which is the Red Skywalker, the White Mirror, the Blue Night, and the Yellow Star. And the Gateway Earth family, which is Red Moon, the White Wizard, Blue Storm, and the Yellow Seed. So everyone reduces down to one of those Earth families.

And what did your experiment do with those?

It’s very interesting. We created a small mini-society based on the Earth families. We found out that, basically, when you do the Earth family thing, you only work once every 5 days. When it’s your Earth family day, the families would do the garbage, do all the clean-up, prepare the meals, and things like that.

Ahhhhhhh very nice! (Laughs)

OK, and the rest of the time you have for study and recreation. And then we started doing experiments, what were called the Rainbow Bridge experiments. You meet once every Wavespell. You always meet on the 12th day. The 12th tone is the tone of cooperation. You call the Roundtable to review the past and to plan for the future. So on those Crystal days, that all the Earth families would meet, they had an assignment, and that was to visualize rainbows.


To visualize a rainbow that went from the North Pole to the South Pole. OK, well, on the final Crystal day that we had of the 7-week event, all the Earth families decided that was the big day. They were going to have big telepathic meditation, and a very very interesting thing happened. Well, the sky was filled with rainbows, spectral clouds, everything you could imagine!


So, this is what I mean by telepathy and being able to affect the environment.

And art. Time is art.

Yes, and create an artistic effect. So the people that attended that were very greatly affected, they’re all around the World and they refer to themselves as the Original Earth Wizards. So, there are all sorts of different things, when you start organizing things accordingly. The 13 Moon Calendar still has the 7-day week, but we’ve changed the names of the days of the week. So, today is actually Kali. Then tomorrow will be Alpha, the day after that will be Limi, and the day after that Silio.

Now what are those names based on?

Those are based on cosmic names of the primary plasmas, electronic particles.

Now was that, again, a new invention for the Dreamspell calendar or based on Mayan terminology?

Yes, the terminology is new.

So the calendars being distributed on your Web site now are Dreamspell calendars or Wavespell calendars?

These are 13 Moon Calendars that have the Wavespells in them. They have the 7 radial plasmas. You have cycles of 4 days. You have cycles of 7 days. You have cycles of 13 days. You have cycles of 20 days. You have cycles of 28 days, and you have cycles of 52 days. Then you start living in these synchronic patterns. Everyone gets a galactic signature, which is based on the date of birth. Yours is White Electric World-bridger, mine is Blue Spectral Monkey. Once you have your galactic signature, and once you know your Earth family, then you really up the ante on your synchronicity. I know that’s why, like, you go to a lot of rave events, the kids are really into getting their galactic signatures.

It’s lets them synch up?

Yes, it lets them synch up.

I’ve seen on your Web site that there are poems that go along with the galactic signatures. Did you create the poems?


What did you base those on?

Well, that was a lot of meditation based on tuning in to what were the qualities of the seals, the colors, the tones, until I finally hit the right formula as it were.

Let’s close on the concept of the Day-Out-of-Time, being that’s really what people tend to get hung up on a lot. I have read your take on this Day which explains that because the 13 Moon Calendar is 13 months of 28 days, that the 365th Day is a ‘Day-Out-of-Time’. Can you please explain this more?

Well, there are 2 things that people get hung up about. One is Leap Year Day. The other is the Day-Out-of-Time. This is where the Dreamspell is a big difference from the Mayan Long Count. The Dreamspell does not recognize Leap Year Day, February 29th. If it recognized that, it throws off the whole synchronic order.

Leap Year is because supposedly right now the Earth goes around the Sun 365.25 days, so every 4 years you gain a day. So, there’s a lot of ways to skin a cat. When we have the calendar change, we’ll eliminate Leap Year Day and we’ll have Jubilee Days, 13 Jubilee Days every 52 years.

13 consecutive days?

Yes, 13 consecutive days in which you can totally put your social order on hold, throw out what doesn’t work and look at what’s new and what’s going to work and then start over again.

Now that’s every 52 years?

Yes, every 52 years. Also, the other thing is we’re looking at telepathic experiments to slow the Earth down so it’s just an even 365 days and we won’t have that problem at all. I also heard that because of global warming, that if the oceans keep rising, that will slow the Earth down too. So that’s another variable.

Now the Day-Out-of-Time has to do with the fact that 13-months, 28-days equals 364 days. There’s a 365th day that is no day of the month or week at all. That’s the Day-Out-of-Time. The 13 Moon Dreamspell Calendar begins on the Gregorian date, July 26th. That was originally the point of which Sirius is conjunct with the Sun, when it rises.

Now what’s the significance of the star Sirius?

The star Sirius is like the major star in this part of the Universe.

How does the Sun compare to it?

Well the Sun is very small and young compared to Sirius. In fact, there’s Sirius A and Sirius B. And they do something funny, they rotate around each other, a very intelligent act. I don’t know if you know this but some African people, the Dogon people, they knew all about Sirius A and Sirius B, but they didn’t have telescopes.

Hmmm, interesting.

Yes, and so did some of the Anasazi people in this part of the world.

Were they following 13 Moon Calendars?

They probably were. So, in any case, that’s why the calendar starts on July 26th. It’s correlated to Sirius rising, and that’s another point, that’s a galactic point. In other words, the beginning of the calendar is galactic-based. So, rather then starting on the solstice or an equinox, it’s synchronized to a galactic point. That’s why we say the Dreamspell is a Galactic Dreamspell. So that means the 365th day, correlates to July 26, then the 364th day is July 25. So this day, correlated to the Gregorian calendar July 25th, is the Day-Out-of-Time. No day of the month or week at all. So, beginning about 10 years ago, we were calling for Time is Art ceremonies or events to happen on this day. By the end of the 90’s, in places like Japan and Brazil, this was getting to be very big. In Brazil, the Day-Out-of-Time is recognized officially by over 80 cities as a day of peace and culture.

And in Japan, the Day-Out-of-Time has become a major kind of day of festival. In the last year, there were more then 100 Day-Out-of-Time events in Japan. In Brazil now, there is a move in the National Assembly to make the Day-Out-of-Time a National holiday. So this day is to celebrate art, and for forgiveness. And so, like the idea of the Day-Out-of-Time, you might remember the old expression, ‘The king is dead, long live the king’?


Way back, way back, way back, on the Day-Out-of-Time, when it was all on the 13 Moon/28-day calendar, in the really old Druid times. On that day the King would be judged as to whether he had done well or not. If he hadn’t, then off with his head.

Ohhhh, (laughs). A Day Without A Head?

Yes, so, anyway, for us, it’s a day for forgiveness, and to celebrate time is art, to have spiritual uplifted types of events. We’ve found this is now growing very popular around the world. So this year, the 2003 Day-Out-Of-Time, which because of the Gregorian calendar falls on a Friday, lots of bands, people, artists, will have performances, and we’re are putting out the call, for whoever’s having a performance, any kind of music event or performance on July 25 this year, that they refer to it as a Day-Out-of-Time event. And we’re trying to get people at all these events to have calendars there.

And aren’t you referring to this year’s ‘Day-Out-of-Time’ as the ‘Galactic Be-In’?

Yes, we refer to this year’s as the Galactic Be-In. We’re putting the word out that, everywhere, this will be the preparation, the first signal that we are now entering the year of the Great Calendar Change. We want to get that word out at a mass level.

This year’s Day-Out-of-Time is the Galactic Be-In, the Great Galactic Be-In, July 25, 2003. Whatever you’re doing, just realize, that you’re participating in a Day-Out-of-Time, and try to find someone that’s got one of those 13 Moon Calendars, and try to find someone who can be there to decode. To decode means getting people’s galactic signatures.

And the next day, July 26th, begins a New Year?

And the next day begins the New Year, the next year. We lived this year, the Year of the Red Planetary Moon. This is a year of planetary purification. This is a great time of purification. So, this year’s Day-Out-of-Time is going to be the Planetary Skywalker, OK, that’s very galactic. And then the New Year is going to be the Year of the White Spectral Wizard. Now this is very auspicious, we’re asking that the White Spectral Wizards spectralize the 12:60, just turn it into rainbows, and get us into the new time.

[b]Beautiful! Thank you very much. I think that’s a great note to go out on.

Dr. Argüelles, we appreciate you taking the time to speak so generously about these topics.[/b]

Yes, well, it’s been a real, real, real great pleasure and I know that everybody out there who’s going to be hearing/reading this is going to get stimulated in some way or another. They should know that if they want to get calendars or something, they should be in touch with our Foundation for the Law of Time.