Think about this. The Dali lama person (Budha guy) was sitting under a specific tree when he became “enlightened.” He relaxed (like LDers do), and started to see all his temptations and blaa…
He said he saw all his lives passing before him, but I think that he just had a big WILD. We know that our mind can be very creative, prehaps Dali was experiencing HH, or some form of unaware/False Lucid dreaming.
I would write a whole page on this, but I don’t have the time.
For me it isn’t (in itself):
A more complete enlightenment happens when the Holy Spirit gives us a clear picture of ourselves, yes including tempations. Perhaps LD’s can help in this area, but it still would be the Holy Spirit doing this (using LD’s too perhaps). In revealing our weaknesses, with God’s help we can overcome them.
As I understand it, Tibetan monks practice lucid dreaming in part to understand that a lot of waking experience is illusion. For them, it is part of a long process (lasting many lifetimes) that ends with enlightenment. But they aren’t the only culture that are famous for practicing ld’ing: the New Zealand Maori people do, too.
If you’ve ever seen Scorcese’s film “Kundu” about the life of the Dalai Llama, there are scenes that look like lucid dreaming to me, or astral projection. Check it out.
Tibetan buddhism consider LDs as only a side-effect of their practices. They reason that one should not get involved too much with LDs because these are only illusions. However, they do acknowledge that meditating for example works much much better in dreams. Once they understand the illusionary world of dreams, they can move further to higher exercises, such as sleep yoga or bardo yoga.
The Enlightenment of the Buddha did indeed happen while he was sitting under a tree, but this experience had nothing to do with LDing because it was so much more profound and much deeper than the experience of LDs or HH. While a person may experience short impressions of what Enlightenment might be, satori, one has to travel along the WHOLE path of spiritual development (dharma) to find true Enlightenment.
There is no single definition of “spiritual development”. You can find numerous methods to spiritual development in almost every religion on earth. Christians for instance try to develop a close relationship with God. Buddhists however want to become “God” (strictly spoken they don’t have a God, but they’re talking of Emptiness, Nirwana). Hindus try to realize that their eternal Self (Atman) is in fact the very same as the eternal Reality of all things (Brahman), etc…
Every method emphasizes on one particular aspect of a human being that should be developped according to the method. Thus, LDing may be only one tiny aspect of ones spiritual development. The more aspects of oneself one tries to develop, the more one proceeds on the path. The methods to spiritual development may be very helpful but it’s always YOU who has to walk the path. The methods are only a guide.
No, I think its something quite different. Its just the way hes explained it made it sound similar.
Saddleback - Where did you hear about Maori people LDing? I live around alot of them and have never heard anything of it, the maori culture doesn’t seem like one that would have much to do with things like LDing. In the past maybe? I highly doubt many of them do it nowadays though.
Well, you could say that becoming lucid in a dream is almost akin to temporary enlightenment. That is, until the dream ends. I doubt the Buddha had a lucid dream related experience. I think it was more just that he had a moment of clarity, and saw… something. And I think he got most of it right as well.
If god spoke to you in a LD, how would you know it wasn’t just your subconscious doing it?
I think enlightenment is actually being able to let LDs be LDs, reality be reality, OOBEs be OOBEs, ect. I dont think of enlightenment being anything describeable. It’s nothing that can be summed up or put in a nice little package. I think that letting everything be at peace with eveything else around you and the adjustment to let things be what they are (because eveything is truely a perfect version of what it is, my computer is not a perfect computer, but it is a perfect MY computer, ect.). I don’t think any one person is going to tell anyone what enlightenment is and I dont think any of us will really know, nor do i think anyone alive has ever known. It is a progression through life. Hope that helps…then again this is just all my thoughts…
“Enlightenment is a name. This name is only a teaching word. Originally there is no Enlightenment. Already everybody has everyday Enlightenment. Drinking coffee – coffee Enlightenment; walking – walking Enlightenment; watching television – watching-television Enlightenment; driving your car – driving Enlightenment. Moment to moment, only Enlightenment, Enlightenment, Enlightenment.
Enlightenment means clear mind. Clear mind means there is no subject, no object, no inside, no outside. Outside and inside already become one. If you have becoming one, what do you want? That’s all! That’s enough!”
Zen Master Seung Sahn
btw. buddhists don’t wan’t to “become god”, far away from that. Infact, one goal of the practise is to gain a state where you don’t want anything and you can’t reach this state if you desire for it.
Yes you’re right, they don’t want to become “God”. They are already “God” (but I thought certain schools from Theravada Buddhism don’t agree with this… correct me if I’m wrong). They only have to realize it and stay in this realization. But “God” is probably the wrong term to use here.