Is Light Intelligent?

Lucid Lounge
1

I was driving on the freeway during a nice sunset due to the recent rains and I noticed how bright the Sun is. It struck me rather hard this time around…suddenly I had an idea: could Light be Intelligent?

Now while my specifics might be off, as I understand it, it takes two elements to create Life: Water and Light. When combined, these two elements take unorganized chaotic energy and creates life building patterns. These patterns, from their most basic in their aminoacid form to entire civilizations all have in common the same element: they organize themselves into working conditions which leads to patterning that allows for the perpetuation of Life.

[mod]Oh maan! :tongue:

*Bruno slaps Ego Trippin around a bit with a large trout

Removed that small fragment. Obviously. :bruno:[/mod]

Moving on from the topic of Light exclusively, patterns are an interesting aspect to life to me. Patterns in the world that we’ve built exist because of the intelligence that organized the random information into a predictable and repeatable pattern. Would you find a Quilt in the forest and think it came from the Trees? Trees and Flowers exhibit remarkable patterns as do the Galaxies we sit in and around. When we look into Space, do we not send and listen for patterns amidst the silent Chaos in hopes of finding Intelligent Life? We predict accurate weather based on past patterns of the Earth. We are in awe of animal life that engages in patterns and proceed to label them Intelligent (Dolphins). It is clear that Patterning is directly related to Intelligence. Light + Water always create a patterned Rainbow in which the pattern is the same in ALL its forms, no matter how you see a Rainbow. What I find funny is how we can look at our Existance/World and see nothing but endless patterns and try and claim that its from a non-intelligent source? Especially when we equate Pattern with Intelligence?

Taking this idea a step further and into a more tangible application to life, I thought of the idea of giving and sacrifice. All the great spiritual leaders and true free thinkers made large sacrifices all their lives, despite the hardships, to help others. Buddha, Socrates, Jesus, Ghandi, etc… When one becomes a true giver, they are usually referred to as a ‘shining light.’ A true Giver turns Chaos into Pattern by enabling self imposed structure (free will). A Society decemated can only rebuild once war stops and the people decide to give and sacrfice for the betterment of their neighbor and ultimately everyone. And then I think of a Sun, an Entity that might even be intelligent, giving itself through its entire existance just to provide life to its encircling neighbors until it explodes or shrivels away. Perhaps the Star is the ultimate Being, unconditional being. Perhaps this form is our goal in our Spiritual Ascension. Perhaps BlackHoles are merely the opposite of Light, consumers of it that give nothing back, much like the negative energy that balances our World.

To take this thought even deeper, the study of Quantum Physics has reduced all Matter in its essence to Energy,measured by the Quanta which is a ‘measurement’ of Light. All the matter that my body and brain is composed of is at its essence, all the same ‘stuff’ that somehow organized itself into a working condition that produced an intelligence that can contemplate itself and how it manipulates its enviroment. The debate is whether this was by “chance” and Evolution or an Intelligent Creator. What if it is both of these? Merely an energy that is composed of Chaos and as a result of Evolution, resulted in a working condition of Intelligence or Pattern. When Intelligence became aware of Itself, it created the division between Postive/Negative, Yin/Yang, Good and Evil,Light and Dark, otherwise known as the ‘big bang.’ Perhaps this Intelligence isn’t sure of why or how its even here either…which results in it being Infinite. Not even God can tell you why we’re here…in the end, the only thing that matters is how much you enjoyed it and helped others enjoy it.

2

When with such an hypothesis you reach such a conclusion (light is intelligent), it seems to me that it looks like a reductio ad absurdum then you can put your hypothesis to the dustbin. :wink:

3

The entire argument is based on this claim, which I find to be shaky at best.

The reason this makes for a poor assumption, is simply that patterns are poorly defined. In fact, it’s very possible that nothing exists but chaos, and we would never know the difference. The reason we would never know the difference, is that we often see patterns when there are none.

For example, take a look at this landscape feature on Mars.

It looks like a face, yes? Then we should assume that it was placed there by an intelligent agent, yes?

Think again.

Doesn’t look so much like a face now, does it? Yet, this is the exact same land structure. What has happened?

Nothing has happened. The pattern, or lack thereof, is identical. The only thing that has changed is the quality of the picture, and the lighting. But with slightly different lighting, there appears to be a face, when in reality it is just a mass of rock and dust.

So, it’s possible that all the patterns we are seeing are mere illusions. Unlikely, but still possible. That is the first problem with the argument.

The second problem is that, even if we could identify real patterns from false ones, we still wouldn’t know if they are the result of intelligence.

I could take a handful of marbles, and randomly drop them on the ground. They could land in a smileyface pattern. Unlikely, but possible. In such a case, it would be impossible to determine if I had intelligently placed the marbles, or not. It would be foolish to assume that I had. Because in this case, I had not.

4

I think it’s important to keep in mind that patterns are subjective. Many patterns are only patterns if there is a mind around to comprehend them, otherwise they simply ‘are’.
Intelligence is also subjective. Is it intelligent to jump out of a plane? It depends on if you are skydiving, escaping a place crash, whether the plane is airborne or not, or whether you are simply out of your mind.
If light does something predictable, isn’t it because of the laws which govern this universe? These laws obviously make the universe a logical, or an intelligent place, but then again, it only seems that way to us. If I were to ask, ‘Who put these laws in place and why are they there?’, then any logic or intelligence would just disappear in the face of speculation.

5

I would largely agree but you misconstrue what I define as Pattern…A Pattern does not have to be visual, which is why I mentioned the Space Signals. It can be auditory, visual, even kinetic. They recently found out that Dolphins have Names that they call to each other in because if repeated frequencies of sounds mixing to create what we would call a ‘language.’ No matter which direction the light shines down on a Flower, its displays the same apparent pattern.

You are thinking this far too much in the strictly Human creations realm. I am not referring to the patterns that we anthropomorphize and impress on Nature, much like how we see a “man on the moon”, but about the essence and nature of these patterns themselves.

6

In my style of thinking, no thought should ever be placed in the dustbin.

7

Absolutely, which furthers my thinking on this, thank you. A Pattern simply is but it takes perception and cognitive thought to recognize it and thus mimic and adapt to it. Species that do this we regard as Intelligent (like Humans for example).

You are thinking more on the IQ basis rather than the ability to manipulate the Enviroment. It may not be intelligent to jump out of a plane, but it would require some level of ‘intelligence’ to have the ability to get into the plane to jump out of it in the first place. Perhaps I should say ‘awareness’ rather than Intelligence?

I don’t deny that it requires Perception to observe these patterns but thats only more curious; why do we observe patterns?? While these Patters simply exist whether we are looking or not, its equally as possible that these Patterns were intended to be observed/perceived.

Why?

I think the most logical and intelligent thing to do would be to ask Why. If we never asked Why, Einstein, for example, would have never been the thinker he was.

8

I agree, it is important to ask ‘why?’
In fact, I wrote a thread here about it once. The problem I was referring to is that if you think of the universe as a logical, intelligent place, you have to ask, ‘why is it like this?’, and I don’t think that any human can answer this question. Luckily, we don’t have to answer this question in order to tell whether the universe is or isn’t ‘intelligent.’ :yes:

9

I didn’t misconstrue anything. Your other examples are just as suspect to the limits of perception. Let’s take an auditory sample, for example.

I could randomly press notes on my synthesizer. In fact, I think I’ll do that now. Seeing as how there are only twelve different notes on a keyboard, there is a pretty good chance that by randomly pressing notes I’ll get a result that sounds like an arpeggio.

But is it really an arpeggio if I am just mashing keys? After all, I’m not playing to a pattern. It’s just that the pattern appears to exist.

Similarly, my friend’s cat can walk across her paino and play a scale. But we have no way to tell if the cat is intending to play a scale, or if it is just the way the cat walks.

10

Yes, you completely misconstrued what I am saying and continue to do so, as well as avoiding my other examples that do not require the limits of perception for the pattern to exist in the first place (like the Flower or a Snowflake). Yes, theres a ‘pretty good chance’ but your Arpeggio is only based of classical western style music. What about other cultures that don’t adhere to that form of patterning in Notes?

More importantly, why do Animals and even Babies respond to Classical Music (which has OBVIOUS pattern and structure and even said to raise intelligence through its structure and sounds) when they are unaware of such potential Chaos that exists in the world? Highly unlikely a Baby or even an Animal would enjoy your random mashing as opposed to Beethoven’s Fur Elise. Music soothes the Savage Beast, not your off-key noise mashing. Why is this? If Patterns are simply percieved and structured by the Human Conciousness (which is also completely incorrect as my previous examples display) then we should be the only Species that would respond to music.

Your example lacks because you have not answered any of my questions or points.

Your random mashing of the keys COULD result in a Arpeggio if you mashed them long enough, much like a thousand monkeys could possibly write the words of Shakespeare on type-writers if doing this long enough, its the same example (although after researching this, I found it to be complete B.S.). What you neglect to address is where the Arpeggio even came from. If the sounds ‘just are’, then why do we, as supposedly intelligent and congnitive Animals, pick these notes out in order to hear them and create what we deem Music? You also completely neglect the idea of Timing, the other 50% of structured and patterned Music. The Sub-Space signals we are listening for would be spaced out evenly and repeated, much like a bassy song, to indicate self imposed structure to seemingly random frequencies.

Moving away from the subjectively created examples of finding a face on a moon or picking out select sounds in a sea of of sounds, how do you address the Patterns of Nature itself? Your example of the Mars Face was welcomed but ultimately did not address what I was referring to. As I said, a Flower cannot be denied its apparent Pattern, no matter where you place the Light around it. Our Weather on the Earth (and other Planets) also display obvious patterns. A Snowflake again, is a beautiful example of Pattern that, albeit, simply is, that does not trivialize its obvious patterning. We regard species that can emulate and create patterns as Intelligent so would it not be logical to infer that the source of the patterns that seem to increase our Cognitive abilities as Intelligent as well? I await a sufficient reply but please do not repeat your same examples as you’ve done twice now.

11

I don’t think we’re supposed to be able to answer the question. Yet one cannot deny that we seem to be the only Species on the planet so far that actually HAS the ability to do so. To not use it on a daily basis is an insult to whatever forces forged your Creation.

12

As a baby, I used to enjoy Jazz and Chorinho (Brazillian piano solo). I fail to see a western logical pattern in either. They don’t even keep to their time signatures…

13

Yet, both follow rules and compositions that enable them to be pleasing to the ear(s). While they didn’t keep to any set time signature, they still kept to a time signature nonetheless, as well as various chord progressions of course (probably the #1 most intruiging aspect to Music).

To expound on Draginvry’s example…If I were to not know how to play a piano, sax, trumpet or any instrument for that matter, and decided to pick it up and play furiously and wildy, are you (or Dragivry for that matter) insinuating that you would be able to “pick out” a beautiful symphony or swinging improv jazz set? Or that it would even be agreeable to your audiory orifices?

Why or why not?

14

BINGO! You just proved my point exactly.

So how do we define a musical pattern, then? Something with structure? That is pleasing to the ear?

Not only could I randomly press notes that appear to have structure (which could also be pleasing) but I could do just the opposite. I could create music that is not pleasing to the ear.

So does the fact that I think rap is complete crap, mean that rap is not music? Or maybe it is music, because my friend likes it. What if I like my random pressing of notes? Does that make it music?

15

You are missing the point entirely though. Your random pressing of notes is only random notes because you have structured compositions to compare it to, thus its moot.

My point is, is the nature of Patterns and Structure. If you continuously played your random notes, would a pattern form eventually? Why or why not? Are you “picking out” and “creating” that pattern that forms? What quality would you relate the ability to form patterns? As a Human Race, we equate that ability to Intelligence. Whether the Patterns simple “just are” or are truly Patterns is irrelevant as the perception of them and the pattern themselves exist as mutually co-dependent entities. You can say the Pattern was “always there” even without you being there to be aware of it, but how can that be proven without using perception?

Considering all things Vibrate (quantum physics rule), it can be said that all Reality is actually Sound and thus by your standards, Music…which I would not disagree with. But what caused these vibrations to mix and become say, Carbon or some other essential Element that compiled into Minerals which combined to Proteins etc… (much how a Note can be stacked to a Chord which can be stacked to a Scale or Progression which can be stacked into a Symphone ad infinum) which all culminated Life or in your case, Melody? Would you argue that its considerably more difficult to create a Symphony than mashing random notes to achieve a desirable state of sound? Do you think a Baby would enjoy those remixes as opposed to a Lullabye? Why do parents sing a baby to sleep rather than play some Thrashrage Death Metal?

Its undeniable that Humans and Animals alike respond to Musical Patterns almost identically. Latest theory is that WATER is Intelligent as well…

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I digress…

What is the driving force behind this ability to create structure and “workability” in Life? Quantum Physics reduced all Matter to Light in its essence (Light at this point is beyond a visual factor) and its clear that patterns as exhibited in Nature do occur. We observe these patterns, are inspired by them and as a result, create new patterns. We consider this ability Intelligence. To repeat once more: if the Patterns we manipulate insinuate Intelligence, could the Pattern itself (or whatever has caused it to form) be Intelligent as well?

Of course, I’m not looking to get an answer, merely incite some thought out of the lot of you, including myself. I find that if everything that if I base my Intelligence and self awareness off the world around me and emulate it as such…then its logically plausible that LIFE is Intelligent. This would explain why Amino Acids form Proteins to create Life, why Cycles exist, Why everything really. And if Light is the underlying “stuff” of all Physical Existance (and beyond), then Light IS aware of itself.

To take this to one more level…God is considered to be Omnipotent, everywhere at once, in ALL things and the “medium for existance.” God is also considered to be “intelligent” and “aware.” Light can qualify for all these. Thus, perhaps Light is God and our Sun is a messenger?

Food for thought. More like a feast at this point.

16

Seems to me it’s the human brain. It’s made in order to classify things, so that he creates an order in what hasn’t and patterns in chaos. What you call Life is the class of animate objects, which opposes to the inanimate ones. What you call “workability” is a human concept.

Thus we defined first that there are patterns and structures, then according to anthropomorphism, that complex structures which move are more interesting than the others and we call this “life”, then we give an incredible importance to LIFE (and its opposite death). Now it’s generally admitted that LIFE has an incredible importance (essentially cause it’s written in capitals), we find it fundamental too to understand what magnificent process underlies it, that is tiny structures (like aminoacids) in the bigger structure. And we come to the conclusion that they must be very clever to form proteins and create such a wonderful thing than life and human beings (and in particular me).

But on the other hand, if I consider I’m useless in universe and spending my time in asserting stupid opinions, it’s probably due to the fact that patterns are related to stupidity and that LIFE is Idiot.