LD. An Order VS Chaos

LD. An Order VS Chaos.
Having endeavored in investigating a possible deeper function of LD and RD in the evolution of our individual and collective consciousness, I would like to share with you my views:
All things in material, psychic and spiritual level are subjects to the universal laws of evolution and involution, so LD and RD as well are playing an important role in the fate of our species.
As Evolution, the late G. I. Gurdjieff defined the expenditure of lesser forms of life, in order to create higher forms of existence. As Involution he stated the reversed process.
Both Laws are acting constantly and combined in every single activity that takes place in the universe. Entropy and Enthalpy are just extreme forms of the above phenomenon. To give an example of the combined results of those laws in everyday life let us consider a simple paradigm: Eating Bread! Evolution upgrades material bread into higher forms of thoughts and feelings. Involution downgrades bread into bowel excretions. All phenomena proceed the same way.
In dreams we may move towards life. In dreams we may move towards Death.
In LD we have an analogue multilevel reprocessing of our individual memories destined towards Universal Consciousness, and/or we may receive apocalyptic messages from the Universal Consciousness, (all above on a quantum level beyond any restriction of space and time)! …Man going Up – Hereafter coming down…
Our individual participation in LDing for the Upgrade of our species is to my view far more important than we suspect, as it seriously fights day and night for Consciousness. RC activity at day time, LD at night.
The distance between Order and Chaos is depending on the Universal Consciousness Itself!
The critical factors that emerge in LD: Will, awareness, freedom, decision, certainty, are definite proofs of our evolved participation in claiming and maintaining the right for a better life. The actual shower of mystic messages that enrich us all in LD are beyond doubt our precious gifts.

So my message for my fellow oneironauts is:
[u]Let us collect here any fragment of LD evolution towards consciousness that we may recall. Anything after LD, that resulted in us becoming something more than we were before.
Let us also collect any gift memory we have received in LD through a personal apocalypse that supported our creative and healing capacities.
This collection is to be our common property in search of perfection.

George Ivanovich Gurdjieff /ˈɡɜrdʒiˌɛf/ (January 13, 1877? - October 29, 1949), also commonly referred to as G. I. Gurdjieff, was an influential spiritual teacher of the early to mid-20th century who taught that most humans live their lives in a state of hypnotic “waking sleep”, but that it is possible to transcend to a higher state of consciousness and achieve full human potential.

The Idea about waking sleep was not told for the first time by G. I. Gurdjieff.
It was first pointed out by Plato, gut largely ignored.
Plato insisted that as soon as man observes himself via “Know thyself” he is not the same person. The observer evolves instantly and is no longer what he was before!

When the observer awakes he lives in an entirely different state analogous to the distance between RD and LD. This we can realize at dream, but alas! We cannot realize it awaken because the art of observation requires the totality of man. Body, soul and spirit need to awake together in total ever knowing nothingness…
An unknown way to be in the cosmos !!!

“…we are really asleep. We only imagine that we are awake. So when we try to remember ourselves it means only one thing—we try to awake. And we do awake for a second but then we fall asleep again. This is our state of being, so actually we are asleep. We can awake only if we correct many things in the machine and if we work very persistently on this idea of awaking…” (The Fourth Way, Peter Ouspensky )

I don’t view humans as spiritual beings, but do accept the concept of universal consciousness that you suggest to some extent.

I will address spirituality first:

What killed Spiritual Dualism in Philosophy was frankly semantic: that which affects the physical world is classified as physical. Therefore, if spiritual entities do exist, they are by definition undetectable.

Having established a materialistic perspective, we can move on to premise two: universal consciousness.

I highly recommend reading this paper: (naturalism.org/death.htm)

If strong inter-connectivity between mental states in the Cosmos does exist, we should still classify it as a physical phenomenon, because consciousness obviously has an effect upon matter [see premise one]. Indeed, awareness is a property of matter.

On to the topic of self knowledge, I don’t find it too interesting that every observation changes what we are to some extent. However, it is possible to attain absolute self knowledge, since what WE are is fundamentally nothing but information. At this point, our complete self-knowledge becomes part of the information we possess.

I welcome Transcender and his interesting views on this “hot” subject.

I must point out that our Post concerns the extend to which LD can possibly deal with an Order VS Chaos.
His recommended reading of the paper: (naturalism.org/death.htm) was really enlightening, and I have read it along with its following comments. I must declare that both the paper and the comments only debate about the oversea cap of the submerged “death” iceberg.
Since the subject is matter of debate between the orthodox scientist Ilya Prigogine and the Quantum reality physics, my choice is to accept both views as existing in the formation of our common and parallel reality.
As the scenario of death is only one of many possibilities, in anticipating death, we are trapped by language, but not by concept.
Even if one does not view humans as spiritual beings, our mental functions operate in a very similar plane. So my quest in this post attempts to investigate our personal struggle for awareness and consciousness in the context of LD (whatever it may be).
Given the poor means in our reality sensing, it is an extra working tool.
I spite the language trap, we have this valuable tool: the common field of experience!
Language in between two persons can only be created if they both had the same experience. A living experience.
All other language exists on a practical-theoretic transmission resulting huge gaps in communication.
So beyond any philosophical implications that may lead us to endless arguments we are called here to investigate our LDs and communicate our views using a language gained via experience.
Even on the information level, (quantum version of universe), the possibility to attain absolute self knowledge is a many dimencional process, accessible via transcendence, following the existential quest that leads us to the absolute 1, via immersion into the absolute 0 .
In the eternally-instant distance between Zero(0), and One(1) lies the way to enlightenment.
I remind readers that philosophically 0 and 1 are not numbers, but states in existence. Numbers start after the repetition of 1, and the first numerical array start with 2,3,4, etc.
Ending I wonder:
Is there any analogy (not identification) between Order perceived as 1, and chaos perceived as 0 ???

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, PROMETHEUS.

We firstly know that LD’s probably cannot provide our brains with new information altogether, but can only serve as a medium that can transfer information from unconscious centers of the brain to the conscious centers of the brain. This being said, however, it is unlikely that any human could attain full self knowledge–which you refer to as philosophical (1)–in his lifetime; there is simply too much complexity and too many dynamic variables in our inner-selves, and not enough processing power.

To put this another way, imagine all the lucid dreaming, therapy, psychology, and meditation it would require to fully understand and express yourself at present, and then understand that by that time, you would have received a plethora of new experiences.

If you are interested in the practical implications of lucid dreaming and self-awareness, I recommend this video:


(Unfortunately, I was unable to find it on ted.com.)

I must admit that Transcender’s response and interest for this topic is encouraging me to probe further.

Since we are dealing with a multiple parameter research, I suggest that it would be dangerous to consider any “possible” data as definite scientific “Truth”.
So I strongly argue that “LD’s probably cannot provide our brains with new information altogether, but can only serve as a medium that can transfer information from unconscious centers of the brain to the conscious centers of the brain.”
This scientific statement can only be possible in the definite context of linear time. Therefore obeys Newtonian relativity and determinism.
On the other hand, the Quantum nature of time is statistically proven to be solid compact, thus allowing us access of information beyond linear flow of time and infinite dimentions, without any light speed limits. As if “here and now” everything is possible provided only that you observe it. You are the critical factor!
Human will… I dont presume faith, but only common will…!
Human will makes the impossible extreemly possible within Quantum parallel reality. The common will we all have, that is by definition damned-blessed to reside at the penumbra of Illumination and Darkness.
You could’nt have axpressed it better!
We decide what to do, and the direction to move…
The deep question is what are and what we want to do using our will…
And the best part:
As we evolve from Unconscious, to Subconscious, to Conscious, to collective Superconscious we are moving on the quicksand of our will.
This costantly changing quality of our will is the factor to determine if we shall be Jailled by the evident, or, will be enlightenend by the accesible collective superconscious.

That’s a clever observation—indeterminacy could provide the brain with truly new information during a LD. The only problem is, this information has no relevance to the empirical world; it’s white noise, so to speak.

Though I will admit that the connectedness of consciousness transcends space and time, this is only because we share the information of awareness.

If I were to write and destroy computer program, and then someone else wrote a carbon copy of it in ten thousand years four light years away, the information would have been moved or connected - by accident, in this case.

Consciousness can be expressed as information; any context in which it arises is connected to every other context. Context is a detail.

As you can see, no information actually TRAVELS beyond its limits—it just appears to do so.

Lucid dreams explore the content of our brains, imo. But we have to wake up to explore what’s outside.

The empirical data and “scientific” knowledge is not the best tool we have.
In our four dimentional perception we are scientificaly incapable to access info and results from the other higher dimentions. (Plato in the cave of shadows)

So with our limited viewing horizon we conclude some aspects but not all.
The problem lies with our education that it convinces us that we are:
1.separate entities and,
2.that we scientificaly “Know”.
Neither is correct.
We fail to see the existing unifying field we all swim in as one, and we have a false lustre of scientific knowledge.
Any partial and unconnected knowledge is dangerous.
Thanks To Heisenberg we were shaken with indeterminacy and were led to new modes of perception.
Aldous Huxley investigated-validated shamanic perception as well.
All kinds of perception is to be estimated and none to be excluded.

Forgive me if I do not respect current knowledge achievments. I have been conviced that the less I know with certainty, the more i am prone to extend my further knowledge.
AS I grow older and observe the similarities between Quantum field , Tao, and Buddist Sutras, I am not surprised to consider information traveling beyond all limits and Not just appearing to do so.
The more abstract our viewing, the more trustworthy.
And I am very happy to immerse by entity with yours in this existing unified field of dreams that bring us together.

Whether or not we are the same entity, we certainly perceive different subjective experiences. We can imagine ourselves as individual thoughts in a single brain: we are separated by our properties, (which includes our positions in SpaceTime) but are connected by a neural network, (this is the flow of information that occurs in a brain or a universe).

Moreover, the priori and empirical methods are the only way to attain information. We can reason internally or externally; there is no third option. Even if a higher plane existed through which we could communicate, we would eventually discover its traits and mechanisms.

In addition, I don’t imagine anyone believes that we can be absolutely sure of things—due to human incompetence—but this is beside the point.

Finally, I, too, am enjoying the exchange; but this is a product of our connectedness, not nessisary complete oneness, (or else I wouldn’t have to tell you that in the first place).

I am overjoyed to discuss aproaches and arguments with Transcender despite our 51 years of age difference, and our vast geographic/cultural distance.
I am proud to investigate with his contribution complex LD issues involving physics, philosophy, and many parallel scientific and/or mystical matters.
Carry on Transcender! I believe in you…

Now to return to the issue of Oneness.
(or perhaps, a complete unifying emptiness-zero. One, equals zero is a debate we shall carry on in future time if interested).

For Oneness we have to consider many scenarios.

  1. Oneness exists beyond our realization dynamically.
  2. Oneness does not exist and everything is vanishing in entropy.
  3. Oneness is eternally maintained in entropy-enthalpy balance beyond time. Or parhaps in Quantum (quasi-point) static time. All history happens instantly.
  4. Oneness is accessible “ad hoc” for a second, or for ever. Eventually will become realised-perceived by all existence, human and otherwise.
  5. Oneness is emptiness and vice versa.
  6. All the above is valid within the absolute One, and our dreams are the communication transcendental language.

My favorite standing point is No6…
Total union of Ideas in Freedom…

That’s a lot of positivity, (why doesn’t spell-check recognize that word?) PROMETHEUS, thank you.

There is a problem with an eternal, complete Nirvana: first, assuming the chance of the cosmos reaching this point is above 0 for a given point in time, and assuming that the cosmos has always existed, we’re faced with the problem that if we haven’t reached complete, eternal Nirvana yet, we never will.

I think the that fact that our universe is still dynamic proves that nothing can escape the cycle forever. It’s a strange and awe-inspiring thought, really.

This being said, we come closer to Nirvana whenever we empathize or share information, and regress whenever that information is accessible. When we die, for example, we lose most of our information that was associated with that particular ego.

On a larger scale, civilizations and species wax and wane; and on a Cosmological scale, material particles pop in and out of existence, taking information with them, (or at least undergo a ‘big-crunch’ to a similar consequence).

To me, trying to achieve Nirvana is like trying to become a scholar while getting a mind wipe every week.

You made a point stating that:
I think the that fact that our universe is still dynamic proves that nothing can escape the cycle forever.

The mental trap we all fall in is the linear consideration of Time.
But in transcendental activity we obtain some taste of the compactness of time as we are able to move to and fro.
Besides Quantum phenomena testimonies, I have been myself conviced for this non linearity of time, after many precognitive dreams that allowed me to observe large parts of future events in extreem detail. I do believe this is an inherent human capability that our left brain sided overaction has subdued.
Primitive tribes, aboriginals and Siberian shamans retain this aptitude utilizing it for the benefit of their community.
I have witnessed whole precognitive scenes of my life in detail illustrating exact locations, persons involved, car accidents, sentimental reactions etc. Not vague resembanses but full prerecordings of events to come. Fortunately I keep DJ for decades and so these writen data are enlightening me “a posteriori”.

Analytic info you can read in a book in PDF by Robert Moss:

I am sure that anyone who receives even the slightest info about this activity is further prone to release this hidden power in his dreams. His subconscious bridge will turn green light. I am sure this will convince you in your future dreams. Linear Time is an illusion against Oneness, togetherness, freedom, unconditional love and enlightenment beyond any logic materiality. Compact time is the transcendetal uniting factor, that sets us free of illusion.

As far as Nirvana is concerned, we cannot access any relevant path in quantitive, logic, material, estimation.
Nirvana, Satori, enlightenment are to be estimated only at the penumbra of Illumination and Darkness. We are dealing with transcendetal phenomena. We may gain a lot if we only observe ourselves unconditonally day and night in complete ignorance.
If we know, we cannot learn further, we cannot realize anything new…

Dr. Eben Alexander: Heaven is Real
Your Consciousness Exists Beyond Your Brain

“I was my own worse skeptic trying to explain my near death expereince as a brain-based phenomena and I tried to discuss it with my colleagues, trying to figure out how this could happen in the brain. I finally had to accept it happened outside the brain. For the next two years, I went into deep study about the nature of consciousness, quantum mechanics and what we know about reality,” explains Dr. Eben Alexander.
“I was my own worse skeptic trying to explain my near death expereince as a brain-based phenomena and I tried to discuss it with my colleagues, trying to figure out how this could happen in the brain. I finally had to accept it happened outside the brain. For the next two years, I went into deep study about the nature of consciousness, quantum mechanics and what we know about reality,” explains Dr. Eben Alexander.
By Krysta Gibson
What’s your vision of heaven? Angels flying around playing harps? Do you believe heaven exists? What do you think happens after death? Do you think there is another world where we continue to exist, or do you think we become food for carrots? These are big questions that deserve big answers. Enter Dr. Eben Alexander who graduated from Duke University in 1980 where he focused on the study of neuroendrocrinology, the study of the interactions between the nervous system and the endocrine system.
On Nov. 10, 2008, at the age of 54, he was struck by a very rare illness: E. coli bacterial meningitis. This was so severe that it drove him into a coma within three to four hours of onset. His entire neocortex was shut down. It did not work at all. At first Dr. Alexander was given a 10% chance of surviving. When he didn’t respond to antibiotics, he had a two to three percent chance of surviving. Usually within three to four days people wake up or die.
On day seven, Dr. Alexander woke up. He had survived this illness.
Dr. Alexander’s book, Proof of Heaven, gives details of this experience, but even more, it details the experiences he had while in the coma, experiences that he can only describe as being beyond the brain. He experienced God or Om; he was in a place he calls Earthworm’s-Eye View, and he experienced what he calls “dazzling darkness – an ink darkness that was also full, brimming with light.”

(Μy remark: Does this remind you the penumbra of Illumination and Darkness??)

Before this experience, Dr. Alexander says he would have said the chances of such a patient remembering anything that happened during coma was zero. “And,” he says, “doctors will agree there is no medical explanation for how I could have such a complete recovery. The ultra-reality of what happened deep in coma was very striking. It was a long odyssey and I felt like I had been there for months.”
Before this experience, Dr. Alexander says he would have been entirely skeptical that such a patient had a true experience. Along with many of his colleagues, he would have said this near-death experience was just a function of the brain. But his brain was entirely non-functional.
“I was my own worse skeptic trying to explain this as a brain-based phenomena and I tried to discuss it with my colleagues, trying to figure out how this could happen in the brain. I finally had to accept it happened outside the brain. For the next two years, I went into deep study about the nature of consciousness, quantum mechanics and what we know about reality.”
He continues, “What I learned is that at the core of everything is the fabric of this multiverse. It is infinite, unconditional love of the creative source, God, Allah, power, Brahmin – this all powerful, loving God is at the core of each one of our conscious existences. My grand message is three to four thousand years old. It is an ancient message. What I bring to the table is my attempt to synthesize everything I know about existence, and that includes the most advanced notions of space and time, quantum mechanics, and everything we know about the fabric of underlying reality,” he explains.
Dr. Alexander says Proof of Heaven synthesizes ancient lessons and applies them to our modern lives so people can know the power of that all-loving deity that he says is the core of our consciousness.
“I do believe that to get to know these deep truths you can do a lot of reading and watch DVDs, go to courses, etc., but at the end of the day one has to do the work and go deep into our own consciousness through centering prayer or deep meditation. I use acoustical enhancements of deep conscious states, especially with a group called Sacred Acoustics.
“It’s all about getting deep into consciousness and into answers, realizing the voice in my head is not who I am. My consciousness acknowledges that voice but in fact that little voice needs to be turned off.”
He says that people who meditate on a regular basis know and recognize the experience he had while in deep coma.
“You don’t have to almost die to get this. As a conscious being I had everything I needed before my coma to come into the understanding that I have now: the understanding that our consciousness is our direct link to the most powerful force in the creation of the entire universe. We can all get there but it does take work. I enjoy meditating and I do it two or three hours a day and I have been doing it steadily for two and a half years and see great benefit in it for creativity, getting to know about our existence, about our relationships with others, about our reasons for being here.
“People can bicker over their definition of heaven and whether or not I’ve defined the heaven they like, but I submit that at the core we’re all talking about the same place, the dwelling place of the divine.
Our cultural and personal biases can color and taint our memories as we come back to this realm. Where the skeptics get lost is that this realm is real. Many people have come to know this realm and this connectedness that we all share and that it is real. Consciousness, soul, spirit transcends bodily death.”
He says that before this experience he would have said that our brains create consciousness. Now, he says this is wrong and that consciousness is primary.
The one thing he was taught that really matters is summed up in three sentences:
You are loved and cherished.
You have nothing to fear.
There is nothing you can do wrong.
“Some people recoil at the last one,” he says. He explains that this does not mean we can hurt other people. We must love others. If we harm other people we will pay the price, he says, in this life or another. “We pay the price when we give pain and suffering to others because we really are all one at deeper levels.”
Dr. Alexander says he learned that the way to manifest our highest spiritual selves is through love and compassion. “These are real, concrete and they make up the very fabric of the spiritual realm.”
Dr. Alexander now teaches classes, works with the medical community and others to share what he learned during this experience and his resultant studies.

We ‘die’ every night when our brain’s shut down between dreams. Our streams of perception simply jump over these gaps, like with death.

There will always be unexplained phenomena; but we don’t want to create a ‘God-of-the-gaps’ to fill them. The idea of consciousness existing outside a body is like saying that the ‘blueness’ of a shirt can exist outside the fabric while the shirt is no longer blue itself. (There are light waves, but this is a breakdown of the analogy.)

I’m sorry—my reply will be cut short due to the time.