LDing & Dreaming (about) Lucidity

I prefered to split this topic from the BIG LD FAQ thread. It’s a very interesting topic with good questions and it deserves it own thread. On the other hand, I didn’t know what title to give to this thread. :bored: You can change it to any title if you want.

Something I’ve been wondering about, that maybe could be discussed here (I’m sure it’s been discussed zillions of times at ld4all, but maybe an FAQ about it might be useful too…)

Okay, the opening post [LD FAQ topic] says: “If you realise in a dream you are dreaming, you are lucid.”

But, what if you’re actually simply dreaming that you realise (…etc) ~ how can you tell the difference?

Given that our dreams are largely a reflection of our waking life, if we’re spending alot of time thinking about LDing when we’re awake, isn’t it inevitable that we will dream about becoming lucid sometimes too?

Couldn’t some low-level LDs actually be dreams about becoming lucid? My impression was, if you have a lucid dream, you effectively “wake up” in the dream, and you’ll absolutely know you’re conscious and that you’re dreaming (i.e. that you’re lucid), but sometimes there seems to be uncertainty about this (hence the big “Was this a LD?” topic)

Also, aren’t there different levels of lucidity, so isn’t it possible that some very low level LDs could blur into dreams about being lucid in some way too?

Finally, kinda related to all that, maybe some links to topics where people describe their experiences of full-blown, high level lucid dreams (there’s some good descriptions of these on different topics @ ll4all) would be helpful, in terms of encouraging people like me who are still trying for their first LD of any sort… (i.e. kinda by way of providing inspiration… :smile:)?

Excellent idea, I thought however that the point of being lucid in your waking life was to have LDs by the natural mechanism of habit. RCs and dreamsigns are one mechanism.

I have no dreamsigns and am usually too carried away to do an RC. I almost never have a dream in the same recurring location.

This idea of yours is interesting in the sense you can get accidentally lucid. I demonstrated this accidentally, when in a dream, I did the WILD technique sitting in front of a computer. It worked, and I was in another place, fully Lucid, as opposed to pre-lucid or low levelly lucid. So the technique works, if you can habitually try to do WILD all the time.
You can do WILD in your dreams in 3 seconds flat. No kidding.

I recommend trying to WILD in your spare time. Do lots of experiments like that. It is an alternative to RCs. It is a form of DILD.

Another thing that may happen is you fall asleep in your dream thinking about having an LD, and because you went to sleep in a dream, autosuggestion works differently, and you have one after all. This “accidentally lucid” phenomena is teh shiznit.
WILD in a dream is just as good as normal WILD.

Just to give my thougt about lucidity.

I do’nt see the difference between " becoming lucid", and " dreaming of becoming lucid", in both cases, you’re dreaming and you know it, ergo, you’re lucid, ergo it is a lucid dream. :content:

Yes. Those dreams exists, they are prelucid dreams. For instance, you dream that you’re talking about lucidity with a friend, you dream that you’re reading the forum, you dream that somebody tells you “what if we were in a dream?”, you tell yourself “it’s incredible, it must be a dream!” etc. but you don’t fully realize you’re dreaming.

Just imagine what you mean by “what if you’re actually simply dreaming” in this case. It means: “what if you think, while dreaming,”, etc. The fact you’re dreaming or not is not important indeed. The important thing is “you think”. If you realize something, whether you’re in a dream or not, you realize it. Now you base your reasonment upon the general assumption that any dream content is false cause it’s “just” a dream. So that if you realize something in a dream, it must be false. Now, let’s take an exemple : suppose you think in a dream that you are thirsty. There are two possibilities : you wake up and you didn’t need to drink or you wake up and you need to drink, so that what you realized in your dream was true. But if you realize in your dream that you’re dreaming and you wake up, you’ll see that inevitably your thoughts were correct: you were dreaming.

Now, why did I think that your question was well asked and interesting? (and I feel rather disappointed that there were so few answers). As you can see, the easier definition for lucid dreaming is “realizing you’re dreaming” and that’s the reason why it has been kept in scientific studies. But if it was really like this, it would be like an switch on/ switch off state : I realize or I don’t realize. I’m lucid or I’m not. Then how is it possible that we do notice many degrees in lucidity?

Concerning the “Was this a LD?” topic, you’ll notice that lots of questions are asked by people who didn’t understand the lucidity basic definition. For instance :“I realized I was dreaming? Was it a LD?” or “I realized I was dreaming but I had no control, so it suppose it wasn’t a LD”. Some people are disappointed too because their first LD was a lucid moment or because it was blurry. In most of cases, it’s possible to an experienced LD’er to answer those questions. Yet he can’t generally tell if it was a low lucidity level or a high lucidity level - though he generally answers: “you probably had a low level LD, that’s why… etc.” Moreover, some LD’ers believe they have had a high lucidity LD but when you read their account, you realize that they fear monsters, they think with dream logic, they have false memories, etc. It’s generally because they confuse lucidity with dream vividness or with quality of attention (awareness? I’m unsure of the translation). All this is properly subjective and relative, so that it can’t be clearly defined and especially in a FAQ.

Anyways, about the dream LD FAQ, I think there should be a paragraph about what is a high lucidity level. What do you think about?

Yes, but do you consciously realise (or think) it? In ‘normal’ (non lucid) dreams, we can appear to realise (or maybe even ‘think‘) things, but we’re not really doing this consciously are we. In other words, we’re not really using our critical or analytical abilities to do this. I guess maybe that’s the distinction?

Yes that’s very important I think, lucidity is like a continuum (a spectrum), in other words?

That’s true, however I think it would be helpful to have something in the FAQ about the different ’levels’ of lucidity people might experience, even though it’s hard to define precisely, and even though these inevitably overlap.

For instance, if someone is experiencing a lot of prelucidity (this is all I‘ve ever experienced, so far :eh: ), whereby they can remember dreaming but aren’t sure if they were lucid or ’dreaming about’ (not sure about this term now, but anyway!) being lucid, this could be discouraging. However, if they see this as having moved along the spectrum to being one step away from lucidity, this might help.

It would then just be a case of looking for ways of increasing their lucidity (I.e. their self-awareness) to enable this to break through more completely, e.g. by concentrating on their hands, or refocusing their intention in some other way, whatever.

Anyway, the following is my attempt at some sort of definition for this … I borrowed heavily from your reply above for parts of this, and I also wasn’t sure exactly how to explain low and high level lucidity (since I’ve never actually experienced either of these myself, only prelucidity), but anyway maybe something along these lines might be helpful …

A Lucid Dream is one in which you become [u][i]consciously[/i] aware[/u] that you are dreaming. With practice, this awareness can then enable you to take control of your dreams, by altering their content, directing their course, or even by changing the dream completely if you wish.

It’s not necessary, however, to actually be able to control a dream for it to be lucid, in fact this is something that often takes practice.

Lucid Dreaming can be thought of something like a spectrum: there are many possible degrees of lucidity within dreaming.  Sometimes you may experience more than one of these within the same dream.

Broadly speaking, however, the following categories reflect the different levels of lucidity it is possible to achieve:

[b]Normal Dreaming (zero lucidity): [/b]~ regular dreaming with no degree of conscious awareness.

[b]Prelucidity:[/b] ~ these are dreams in which you dream [i]about[/i] lucidity, or about becoming lucid, but without any obvious degree of actual [i]conscious[/i] awareness.

For instance, you dream that you're talking about lucidity with a friend, you dream that you're reading this forum, you dream that somebody tells you "what if we were in a dream?", you tell yourself "it's incredible, it must be a dream!" etc, but you don't [i]fully realize[/i] that you're actually dreaming. 

[b]‘Low Level’ Lucidity:[/b] ~ these are dreams in which you recognise that you’re dreaming, but in which your [i]conscious[/i] awareness (i.e. your ability to reason & think critically, or your degree of self awareness) is limited.  You may, for instance, find yourself accepting aspects of dream logic which otherwise (I.e. on waking, or in a high level LD) you’d normally question, or you may have false memories, etc.  

[b]‘High Level’ Lucidity:[/b] ~  characterised by complete conscious awareness: this means not only that you know you’re dreaming, but also that you have a high degree of self awareness -  i.e. awareness of who & where you are, of  your recent personal history (what you did the previous day), etc.  In other words, these are dreams in which you effectively “wake up” in the dream, and are able to live in the moment, with more-or-less complete conscious awareness.

About the Lucidity Spectrum

My sister (who is not on ld4all, as she doesn’t need help doing that stuff) made mention that…

On some level, you are always lucid. That is how you know the dream isn’t real when you wake up. She went on to say, that it is possible to have a dream so realistic, that it fools your own mind. hen you get hurt in such a dream, because you thought it was real, your mind makes up the injuries, so you can feel hurt even after you wake up. I kinda thought that was odd.

So, we are always lucid in the sense that we know it is not real. Like some animals or sentient life almost, we can have self awareness at higher levels of Lucidity.

That’s a really good point … also, even when we’re awake it’s still not black & white, lucidity is still a spectrum (do you still have ‘high lucidity’ if you’ve drunk a bottle of red wine, or haven’t slept for 36 hours, or are on medication of some sort, or haven’t eaten for a while, or have a really bad head cold, etc…?)

Even normally, how lucid are we really during waking reality? I don’t actually remember much, in any sort of detail, of what I was doing (or thinking about) 12 hours ago, 16 hours ago, 24 hours ago, etc); also, most of what’s happening around me now I’m completely ignoring (I’m listening to the radio but not really ‘hearing’ it, it’s in the background & passing me by), I’m focusing on what I’m typing & everything else is extremely peripheral.

Also, what you’re sister said about feeling pain when you wake up ( as a reaction to dream events) is really interesting … I guess most people have experienced something like that … ?