Hi all,
It’s me again with another niggly little question
I’m curious if there has been any psychological research done in relation to the frequency of lucid dreaming in children between 3 and 11 years of age. I’ve been doing some research through our local PsycArticles database, but can’t find anything to this effect. According to Flavell, H. and Lillard, S. (1992) I’m lead to believe that the general consensus seems to be that children are less aware of their mental state, with developmental stages around 3, 5, 8 and 11 years of age. This is all very well and good, but is anyone here able to tell of any personal experiences they had when they were under 12 years of age? Or even under 8 years?
Alternatively do you know of children that reported lucid dreams at this age, and were they consistent lucid dreamers, or were these one off occasions as far as you’re aware?
I’m not entirely satisfied with the psychologists explanation that children report a higher belief in their ability to control their dreams due to their undeveloped level of mental awareness (Woolley, J. & Boerger, E. 2002), and just feel that not enough research has been done in relation to the incidence of lucid dreaming in children. (Any philosophy students here? Doesn’t this sound like a logical fallacy to arrive at this conclusion in such a manner?)
Hi Snape!
I agree with you on the different subjects you point out.
First of all, the general consensus says that children cannot make the difference between dream and reality before 3 years of age. It’s generally understood as the consequence of an undeveloped brain.
In the oppposite, it could mean that they are as conscious and in control as in reality, but it’s impossible to verify… as they don’t make the difference between dream and reality!
A lot of people told me that they were natural LD’ers during childhood, and that this ability disappeared with puberty. Most of them were consistant lucid dreamers.
Laberge (in the “overcoming nightmare” page?) reported on the Lucidity institude site that his little girl managed very easily to have a LD.
On a french forum, a LD’er told me that her little sister, 11, was a natural LD’er. She said: “I told about LD’s with my sister, 11, and I realized that she was naturally lucid, each night and during a very long time.”
She related one of her sister’s LD’s, and it looks very like an adult LD, of course with concerns related to this age.
Of course it’s a sophism. With the same argument, you should demonstrate that everybody believes to control things IRL, but it’s due to their “undeveloped level of mental awareness”. As I suppose that psychologists admit that it’s possible to control things, and that free-will exists, before they can make this assumption, they should have asked themselves the following questions:
is it possible that somebody believes he controls IRL something that he obviously doesn’t control?
if it’s possible, what is the neurological problem or cognitive illusion this person experiences?
may this problem or illusion be applied to children, in order to explain why they say they control their dreams?
Controlling (or feeling we control) our environment through acting is a very important and fondamental function of the brain. It’s very unlikely that, after they have developped their psychomotor abilities, children are unable to say if they control something or not.
I was a consistant natural LDer when I was between the ages of 4 1/2 to 8. I can’t remember many of my dreams from then, but the ones I remember are lucid or at least semilucid. My LDs totally stopped coming after I turned 11 or 12.
Don’t know about research, but there’s something for you.
Exactly! So children may in fact be natural lucid dreamers up until the age of 12, with decreasing incidence of lucid dreaming at the ages that I previously mentioned (3, 5, 8 & 11). To any extent, I’m not aware of any research studies that have sufficiently disproven this theory beyond any doubt - but if anyone here is aware of such a study be sure to bring it to our attention!
Thanks for the personal account Fuzz! Funny how your LD’s stopped occurring naturally around 12 years of age - it seems to confirm the hypothesis that children are natural lucid dreamers [size=75](or the theory proposed by Woolley and Boerger about development of belief in children)[/size]
About lucidity in dreams, the only exemple is said to be the Senoi people in Malaysia, but it’s now wondered if it wasn’t ethnology-fiction.
About dreams, some rare societies give them a special importance, like Ojibwa in North America, and Australian Aboriginal. It seems to me that Jung has given some examples about the Dogon people in Africa.
Dreams are more important in religions. I found this curious quote on the web, it seems to be an excerpt of a christian missionary review, in December 1997.
Dreams have played an important role in early religions (for instance, early monotheisms). It seems it was always related with a remain of shamanistic societies (like in buddhism). It’s curious to notice that this relation disappears when the society grows into a civilization.
But lucidity never played a role in societies, probably due to the fact that “social hypnosis” develops the loss of lucidity (shamans were generally choosen amongst socially unadapted people). Just my opinion, indeed.
Are you by any chance thinking of Kilton Stewart’s work on the Senoi tribe in Malaysia back in the 1930s?
The accuracy of his (amature?) anthropology has been questioned since, but it’s not really clear how much his original reportage was mistaken, and how much the tribe changed due to contact with western culture since his work was done.
In a very real sense, it doesn’t matter anyways. The Senoi concepts that were incorporated into modern dreamwork have proven both useful and effective.
(And they’re applicable to both normal and lucid dreaming.)
I don’t know what to think about that. I’ve read that Margaret Mead’s work (which is really great) has been questioned too (it’s not about LD’ing). Generally, these contested reports share 2 characteristics:
they are questioning occidental way of life,
they are contested by people who stay in their bureau at university.
When will they find that Levy-Strauss invented Amazonia tribes?
I have had a talk with my cousin, who is 12, and he said he consistantly gets lucid in dreams. He said that when he realizes he is dreaming, he immediately gets his dream camera, which, when he takes a picture with it, will grant him a wish. So it seems he has developped his own methods for dream control too. So I do believe children are natural lucid dreamers.
I remember that through my life I’ve only remembered Nightmares because I’s wake up from them but every nightmare I had I’d know I was dreaming and try to wake myself up, I havn’t had that many nightmares now that I can control LD.
I wasn’t a natural lucid dreamer, but I did have a LD when I was about five. I had a nightmare in which a scary doctor would do something bad to me and some others (the wierd thing was that we were the heros in somekind of cartoon).
When I was hiding I realised it was a dream and said to myself “wake up, wake up”. It seems like I wasn’t lucid enough the realise that I couldn’t get hurt in dreams.
I don’t think all children are natural LDers, but that children could have LDs easier. Not sure why though.
My little brother (he’s told me he can “control his dreams” (Lucid dream) every night. He says he can choose when he wants to wake up as well. I envy him, necause I’ve been trying for a long time and I can’t seem to lucid dream.
If this helps any, I think I went lucid when I was 4. I had a nightmare about a giant squid holding me and my family captive. I was afraid, but then I overcame it. I closed my eyes in my dream and opened them to find myself looking into a giant bunny. -_- I kept telling myself it was a dream and then everything became what I wanted it to be… a giant area full of friggin stuffed animals. I’m not sure how I remember that but… yeah.
When I was a kid I remember being aware in dreams but all I could do was realizing that I was dreaming and controlling my actions. That happened almost every night. One night I had 3 “LDs” in a row. Now I forgot how to do it and I’m trying to remember. But when I was a kid I didn’t know what LDs were called nor that you could do anything you wanted.
before they can make this assumption, they should have asked themselves the following questions:
Generally, these contested reports share 2 characteristics:
told me he can “control his dreams” (Lucid dream) every night. He says he can choose when he wants to wake up as well. I envy him, necause I’ve been trying for a long time and I can’t seem to lucid dream.
…