in real world , we observed our world then we measure it and we obtained rules of physics and chemistry.
and then we created a language for these rules to understand them better. that language called math.
on the other hand , there is superstition , myth , beliefs and religion. myth originally created to make dreams and control people’s imagination, to give hope or kill hope.
these are two sides of our brain , left side for observations and measurements ( math ) and right side for beliefs, music , art and religion ( myth ) .
if two man do a same physic experiment in two different place on earth they get the same results , what if two man do same thing in their lucid dreams ? we can’t say they would experience same thing. so we can’t explain lucid dream with our ancient language which is math , instead we can explain lucid dream functionality with dreamer’s belief system and his/her religion.
we know that when Christians experience religious feelings during the lucid dream , they are more likely to see jesus christ etc. and Muslims would see mohammad or their imams.
and their experience during this religious feeling is so strong and vivid.
so i asked myself what if i create my own religion? what if a group of lucid dreamers convert into one custom religion that is all about lucid dream with some rules? is it possible that somehow they can experience same by doing sth same ? like how those two man did experiment in real world?
imagine , we create a religion. and there is some gods and goddess that completely described and detailed or even painted. for example “Diov” the goddess of time , she has this specific shape , this specific attitude and this specific super powers. you can meet and pray her in your lucid dream by entering her temple. you should do this specific things in your lucid dream to open portal to her temple and her temple is like this ( detailed and imaged ) . she can show you future if you do this.
so 1k lucid dreamer is following this custom religion and they try to believe these gods and goddess.
or even a lucid dream bible written by some experts containing some rules and instructions.
after repeatedly praying and reading the lucid dream bible they finally get to believe after 6 month or more.
at some point some followers finally open the portal and can enter the temple and they would describe same place and they describe same goddess.
maybe maybe maybe maybe , i hope so . some dreamers meet each other in there somehow with astral tether or telepathy. maybe maybe maybe maybe by believing that Diov goddess so much somehow dreamer can connect to universe and somehow see some kinda future and predict things.
what do we know?!
maybe myth is not that useless , and its actually the language and way of connection for people in lucid dreams !
If this would work, then why not go along existing religions and their beliefs to achieve the goals you outlined? From my understanding of your proposal they should work just as well. What’s the difference with your religion?
there is no difference , i said religious lucid dreamers when experience religious feelings during the lucid dream , they describe their lucid dream as " most vivid and best lucid dream they ever had" .
so basically religious people are benefiting some features that is harder to achieve as an atheist right now.
hallucination and visualizations are more strong when it’s about religion for religious people.
if an atheist use meth to hallucination
and a famous religion character of islam tell one of normal muslims that if he touch their heads and they close their eyes , they would meet imam in their imagination.
and we compare which one of druged atheist or muslim have more hallucination , the muslim would defiantly have more even thou he didnt use any drug. because the brain itself provide hallucination.
actually there is a superpower in world of islam called " seyr & solok " which is basically lucid dream with strong religious feeling.
and they think only high mullahs that prayed for years can do that.
they claim they can provide information of the world. for example they can say where is the missing object located.
The significance of lucid dreams in religion is well known. I think the Tibetan dream Yogi are the most often referred instance. I also remember many indigenous tribes all across the world with rather shamanic religions to feature lucid dreams as an important if not key element in their spiritual life.
Your explanation is the first time I hear about it in Islam though. Did you read about this somewhere or did somebody tell you? Do you know whether this is common knowledge in most or all flavors of Islam or rather a peculiarity that only few are familiar with who practice this religion?
Now I’m curious how the title relates to the discussion? It seems we went pretty fast from math to myth and then religion, but Idon’t see the connection to math anymore
That’s an interesting idea: that mathematics/physics was created by humans to describe the waking world, while myth was created by humans to explain the dream/unconscious world. And so experiments to explore the dream world should look like “myth experiments” rather than physics experiments.
One possible objection. The anthropologist Claude Levi-Strauss used mathematics to model the kinship rules of Australian Aboriginal societies. So mathematics can be used to model things that are non-numerical and more myth-like, if you ‘re wiling to use abstract algebra. On the other hand, there a lot of reasons for being. skeptical about Levi-Strauss’s structural anthropology,
seyr and solok is well known and common knowledge in middle east islam at least.
I agree with this, but if you are a brainiac on maths, it will leak to ld’s
I had a pretty big realization on how math is messed up. I got into the idea of how 20 was the real deal base, since we have 20 fingers and toes.
Then it dawned on me that 1/3 in decimal is .3333333. Where as 1/3 in vigesimal (or base 20) is a completely different number (if you ignore the spaces and think of it as vigesimal its .6 13 6 13. This seems pretty critical towards the idea of base 20 being more real.
So, whatever to that, but than for some reason I started thinking in base 60, since 60’s pretty big. I find you have to get into things when you see in 60. Dreaming as well is the part of life in which if we have anything to do with it we have to get into it ourselves.
Dunno how much this veers off topic or not, but I see living life simply as being religious. Its as easy as when you are looking for results in life, you are religious. So I can’t see why this doesn’t fit.
I think the idea is : “new myth/language = new reality “
If you control the myth and the language of a culture, you control the reality. Language and belief are the building blocks of the reality, they limit or expand what the people are able to experience or even conceive of experiencing.
Hence why so much energy goes into conditioning and indoctrinating the masses through school and media (subtle forms of hypnosis through advertising and repeated images).
Our current mythos/language has produced the result of this world. Maybe if we change it up, a new world may emerge
You’d probably enjoy reading Joseph Campbell’s “The Hero with a Thousand Faces”
if you haven’t already
He was an anthropologist who basically found the common thread of a vast number of cultures around the world, and compiled it into an awesome book. This thread, called “The Hero’s Journey” seems to be the predominating myth of our age, our spiritual arc or depending on your perspective, you may just call it the human’s psychological process of becoming mature. Lol.
It’s pretty cool stuff, however, I’m still wondering if there’s any possibility of radically altering the collective mythos or if we, by are nature, are sort of locked into it.
I’d be interested to see if any members here could come up with a story that doesn’t follow the hero’s journey arc haha … wonder if it’s possible !!
I very much agree with your post and the ideas you outlined. It’s even a little ironic since I consider myself a very rational and reality based person. But then again from an analytical point of view I’m a big subscriber to the two-worlds-model. It basically says that every person lives in the physical world and in the mental world that is made up by our mind to represent the physical world as well as everything else extra.
We all share the same physical world but everyone has their own mental world. But through communication we connect in the mental world as well. And the bandwidth we achieve in this way greatly exceeds the bandwidth of our physical world interaction. Since we are controlled (or you may say determined) by our brains, in the end it’s only the mental world that counts to us. We should really make sure we get it right and develop our myths and beliefs in a positive way.
This was a bit of an insufficient description of the model, but this be better discussed in the cloud.
Thats an extreme point of view, but i like it.
Yeah, thanks for getting me. I’ve been dying to tell this to people. There could be connection in the mental world, but first that mental world needs to be designed by someone.
We should have a myth, religion, belief that there is a world beyond our dreams we can reach it doing these specific things in the dream.
More people believe more easier to access it gets.
Sanctuary of lucid dreamers.
I’m currently developing a religion, its more scientific and rational and im the prophet.
As a prophet i must be the first person who believes it, i should build this place in a emotional and dinive way in my lucid dreams.
Then describe it to the world, ao other people can also believe it and gather there.
in reality, numbers don’t have a base. the base is a tool we added to understand it better.