Well if it happens, I won’t get drafted anyways. I’m deaf and it’s forbidden in military community. 
However, I rather not to think a lot about wars and wars because they’re very depressing.
Wow, Milod you want to be drafted into Bush’s adventures? Are you insane? The only way that you will ever be able to deploy an army without it being a massive misuse of power and authority is to have a fully democratic army and nation, where the military can only be deployed if there is a very, very high level of agreement in all sectors of society. There should be a law, and i’m being serious here, that it is an offense, punishable by death, to order people to kill other people. Why should one man, backed up by a large array of fervent fundamentalist advisors, have the power to order death to people in other countries? The U.S. might be considered a democracy, but having one man with his finger on the button is nothing short of a dictatorship in military terms.
Besides, why the hell does the U.S. need more killing machines??? The U.S. already has by far the biggest arsenal in the world, why should that be added to when the people controlling the U.S. are so out of control themselves? We should be fighting to disarm the U.S. and all other overly armed nations.
Also the amount the U.S. spends on its military is a big joke. Everyone knows that so much money gets diverted to the pentagon and then into all kinds of crazy schemes like Star Wars instead of on what the U.S. really needs, things like good hospitals and schools and anti-poverty measures.
I really fail to see how having drafted instead of voluntary soldiers would make the types of leaders much of the world has think twice about commiting them to war.
Well, if the planet can survive another 15 years, the US should be bankcrupt by then.
Thats not really a good thing, but there’ll be no more money for a military 
Bush should really be looking at the US’ massive national debt and the severe possibility of social security money running out instead of dropping bombs on children.
if you havn’t noticed, Bush isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed He’ll probably keep the war going until his second (how could people re-elect him?!) term is over. we just have to hope he dies, or is killed/impeached.
Wow,
Well! during the reign of King Willy Clinton, he decided to downsize the military, a lot of people were offered LARGE bonuses to leave. big mistake. the united states army is meant to be capable of fighting (and winning) two landwars simoultaneous anywhere in the world against any foe.
I believe at this point in time we have the second largerst air force (air force and navy are being downsized dramaticly) the largest navy and the second largest ground force in the world. (china tops us on troops and planes) Yes the army does have the big guns, but not the troops to man them. We are very understaffed from pres. clintons downsizing and failure in army recruiting goals.
Financial (mis)use in the military is an entirely different topic. True, a lot of money is used and wasted in crazy schemes (star wars? please. that was over twent years ago, we’ve moved on to crazier and more effective schemes… like strikers and striker brigades 
) I strongly believe that a strong military is an important aspect of the united states role in the rest of the world. if we were to fall who would have power? england? france? or maybe somebody who isnt an ally, china or korea maybe, (i think the fragmented soviet union is still worth a mention)
yes the funds used in the us army are vast and could be used for better things. (on that note why dont you have PETA start buying the homeless happy meals instead of red paint to pour on somebodys fur coat? there is money being misused absolutely everwhere.)
the army has good hospitals, the army has good schools, the army helps its veterans. not all the money allotted to the military is used on painting battleships toupe one day and battleship grey the next.
Drafted leaders plain and simple are better then those who joined on their own.
the type of person who when drafted says to themselves “my country needs me! i will do everything i can to do my duty” make the best leaders the army has known.
so go ahead and disarm the united states.
we went into iraq full force and found tanks lined up ready to attack but entirely unmanned at the fear of the rumbling of our guns.
we are army. we get the job done.
go ahead and disarm us.
take the hammers away from the corps of engineers in south amercia, africa, and the middle east building schools, churches and shelters.
go ahead and disarm us.
take away the sandbags and rescue helicopters from the guardsmen responding at a moments notice to fires, floods, missing person, disasters of all kind, saving lives.
go ahead and disarm us.
might as well get rid of all the green berets,
let the drug trafficing from south america flow freely into the united states and europe.
go ahead and disarm us.
take the spatulas away from our cooks!
take the food and water we give to the thousands of refugees away. i suppose they dont need funding for that do they?
go ahead and disarm us.
take the weelchairs from our veterans, and the familes of our troops, take away the healthcare the army provides for THOUSANDS of veterans, troops, and their families. I guess they dont help out anyways.
go ahead and disarm us.
take the bullets away from the infantry. they dont need them do they? when we hunted down al-queada, slowing terrorist attacks to a near standstill in the americas and europe, they didnt need funding and support then did they? are you saying the thousands of lives saved in the global war on terror shouldnt have been saved?
go ahead and disarm us.
we are army. we get the job done.
we do a lot of good in the world.
if you can see past a foolish man’s selfish plans.
disarm us, and just see if the world will be a better place.[/i]
we are not just killing machines in the us army.
we make a differnce.
The problem isn’t your army, it’s your president
Anyone who is politically conscious sees the looming danger with the current U.S. administration’s fervent desire to control the world. And what about england (I think you mean the U.K.) or france? Why do you look down on them as potential super-powers (not that I believe they should aim to be)? The U.S. has a long history, like a lot of other nations have, of doing some horrific things to various nations and peoples, and you shouldn’t so blindly advocate having your nation as THE global power.
What? PETA are a radical private organisation, what does the way they spend their money have to do with where public funds, from citizens taxes, are spent by ‘democratically’ elected leaders when they flow into the miltary-industrial complex?
What’s your point? That the U.S. is such a big tough nation? That its army is scary? Of course it is, so what? The U.S. has killed a lot of people over the last 50 years, are you proud of that? What the U.S. found in Iraq was barely any military resistance until the fundamentalists moved in. All that proves is that your government lied about Iraq’s threat, and woefully misjudged what would occur, and how to manage the situation, after they took power in an already desolate country.
Hold on, fundamentalist terrorists need to be stopped, few rational people would disagree with that, but the way your government has gone about the task has only created far more terrorist related deaths. You clearly haven’t seen any of the statistics which prove in plain simple facts that so far you are not only loosing the war on terror, but that you are helping it grow, and surely no-one wants that apart from the crazy fundamentalist terrorists. See
msnbc.msn.com/id/5889435/
cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/ … ll.terror/
cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/
I’m sure the army does quite a lot of good in certain places, but most of it could be done by a similarly trained non-militarised organisation. Why do trained killers have to be the one’s doing most of the humanitarian/aid work? And i’m not talking about peace keeping here, obviously you need armed organisations for that?
I’ll refraise what I said earlier;P
The military (of any country) is kind of like a gun. A gun in the hands of a cop enforcing the law for the safety of the public is a good thing. A gun in the hands of a bank robber shooting the clerk is a bad thing. See where I’m going with this?
…President Bush would be the latter.
So, maybe what I should’ve said was, “The problem is a corrupt organization using an uneccesarily large army as a proverbial pawn in the effort to make the individuals in that corrupt organization more and more wealthy.”
Has anyone besides me here though about this;
If Iraq was such a threat to the United States, why did Saddam have to hide in a hole? Why was there no military resistance, save for a few fundamentalists blowing themselves up? Why were there no weapons of mass distruction?
Please, if Iraq really was such a threat to Freedom, if it really had weapons of mass destruction, Bush would’ve picked an easier country to invade…like Canada.
i am going to respectfully bow down from this debate.
this could go on forever. thing is, the army pays my bills, feeds me and my family. i am going to like what they tell me to like, and support what they tell me to support.
I would like to make one point, and agree with you also. Bush lied about the WMD to get into iraq, it is unfortunate that he had to resort to lying. Thing is there was an injustice, an unruly dictatorship that i think he could not turn a blind eye too. I feel actions in iraq are justified and i am willing to fight and die in iraq if this country asks it of me. I believe in the ideals we are fighting for (even if they are caught up in a web of lies and personal vendetta)
thank you and i value your insights.
MAC
i have anti-peta issues 
more of a peya (people for the eating of yummy animals) kind of guy. peta bothers me a little.
sisokogotai
Hopefully you understand that people who are against the war are against the people who made the decision to go to war, not the soldiers who carried out the war.
No doubt that sadam was a bad guy but, there are a lot of bad guys around the world. Many of whom are a far more of a threat to us (the free world) and we are doing nothing.
Yes he committed atrocities against his own people yet, there is a genocide going on in Sudan right now and we(the free world) are doing nothing.
Well to a large extent I agree with milod, but not totally. Everyone has personal responsibility, and I have decided that I do not support the war in Iraq, therefore I will not automatically support the soldiers who are killing people over there, just like I won’t support the terrorists who are killing people over there, because you have a choice, you don’t have to follow what your army tells you just because it provides for you and your family.
If only the U.S. had removed Saddam’s regime back in gulf war 1 we probably wouldn’t have nearly as bad a situation over there as we do now, but I guess he was still useful to the U.S., hence them allowing him to crush the rebbelion in the south.
I understand what you are saying but keep in mind that our soldiers do not have a choice as to what orders they follow otherwise they end up in jail. If they are told to go blowup country A they do not have the option of saying no. They get crap pay (most of them anyway) and they take an oath to protect us with their own lives if need be. They are worthy of our support and we should not abandon that support just because we don’t agree with the war.
Sorry but I’ll stick to my decisions. I didn’t support the Iraq war for reasons that are now manifest, therefore I won’t support the people who carried it out. Yes the leaders bear an awful lot of the responsibility, but the soldiers and pilots all bear a lot too, especially the pilots, they kill the majority of the civilians with their cowardly bombing runs, free from any danger and free to kill dozens of people with the push of a button. They are thinking creatures, they can decide to disobey. If it was a choice between jail or killing innocent people I know which choice i’d make. Therefore these people are either too scared (I highly doubt this, the army now has excellent techniques to make people unflinching killing machines) or in support of the war. If they are in support of the war then why should I support them? They supported a war I didn’t, they decided to fight in that war and kill people, therefore they are doing exactly the thing I didn’t want to happen. If I supported them I would be throwing all my beliefs away.
I do not go along with the argument that they are ‘our boys and girls’ and therefore we should support them irrelevant of what they do. The media makes this out to be the only morally acceptable view point, it’s not.
And anyway, what do you mean by support them? I live in England, am I supposed to go over there and cook for them? Pray for them? What exactly? I do not support the people who started the war and I don’t support the people who carried it out and are still carrying it out, but I don’t really see that my lack of support for them is hurting them much.
The only really big sympathy aspect I can see is that fact that a lot of soldiers have very little options as far as jobs go, and that needs to be changed drastically. For them yes, I feel a lot of sympathy and sorrow, but I highly doubt that most soldiers in Iraq don’t support the war, otherwise they wouldn’t be there.
Instead, how about the U.S. stops attacking countries and therefore placing these young men and women in the horrors that befall them?
omnicenter.org/warpeacecolle … ictims.htm
If your country has a history like this then you’re going to have realise that when you join the armed forces you are joining a murderous organisation that will probably require you to break all decent human ethical codes. And if you accept this then why should you be supported?
You know you’re right 1984. Nice link too, I read the whole thing. Reminds me of the4 stuff my grandpa reads, he’s about as socialist as you can get
I guess they haven’t updated their site to include the friendly fire incident which killed those Canadian troops, or where those soldiers were molesting the Iraqi prisoners. I don’t believe this is a reflection on the entire US army by any means, and I feel sorry for those who have no where else to go butg the army and really don’t feel they should be there, but I think it shows just how bad it can get when your media and government ‘brainwash’ you that much.
Well, I think you have to take into consideration many circumstances when making such statements, and I am prone to being overly judgemental because there are a lot of circumstances that can lead someone to join the army, and it’s very easy for me to say sitting here.
But still, my basic feelings have always been the same and will stay the same: you always have a choice, therefore you always have ultimate responsibility.
All this crap you hear in the media is patriotism gone mad. Or rather patriotism as it generally manifests itself. It’s very similar over here in the UK. The major issue of the recent election campaign was the Iraq war, and Blair’s argument was ‘you may not have agreed with the war, but now it’s done stop going on about it and support us unconditionally,’ luckily a lot of people said no, and that’s one of the reasons why an anti-war MP got in with a massive swing vote against a strong Labour candidate.
You rarely here the argument ‘be a patriot, stop your nation being abused by its leaders’, all you ever hear is ‘be a patriot, you may not have agreed with the war but now we’ve gone ahead and invaded anyway it is your duty to support us.’ Any fool can see that away from the moral/political arguments that’s just plain stupid. That’s why so many people hate patriotism, it’s so abused as a concept by leaders and the media that people fail to see that being a patriot can be positive and progressive, it doesn’t mean you have to blindly support your ‘country’, it means that you can see that what the media calls your ‘country’ is actually your government, and that therefore your nation is seperate from that and above that. And that therefore it’s your duty to fight any government that is damaging to your nation and its people, not support it.
17 from Poland have died.
88 Soldiers from the UK have died.
1636 From the United States.
1816 coalition members in all.
Do you blame all these people for everything that you dont like in iraq? the 88 from the UK? or just the 1636 from the United States? what about the other coalition members? do you blame them too?
Yes war is bad. I hate it. More then anything i hope and pray everyday that i will not be placed in a situation that would require me to take the life of a fellow human being. I would rather have my own life taken, or hell, i would even like to face prison time and be labled a coward if it meant i didnt have to take the life of somebody else.
But i cant just think of myself now can i? what about my friend, my platoon sergeant, my gunner, my driver, my crew, my convoy, reporters, medics, red cross? If killing an enemy prevents the death of any of these people i would do everything i could to ensure the safety of those fighting to instill liberty.
All the same, if killing this person means saving the life of the Iraqi policemen or security, if it means preventing another IED, if it means preventing the death of any innocent civilian, If it means preventing the death of an iraqi child, mother, brother, son, uncle, father, whoever, i will kill.
If it means stopping or hindering terror attacks, weither they be in iraq or abroad. I will kill.
We dont kill or drop bombs for the fun of it. Do you think the people required to make those decisions enjoy killing? 9 out of 10 involved in combat upon seeing or taking part in the death of another human being, friend or foe… breaks into tears.
I dont care if you do not support the war. I dont care if you dont support my president. I dont care if you do not support my country or its ideals of liberty.
But i do care if you call me a murderer.
Yes they all share their portion of blame, but obviously some much more than others. For example the prisoner-abusers, the people who have killed people that didn’t need to be killed and so on. What’s your problem with my stance? You say you don’t mind if I don’t support the war, I’m just being consistent. I don’t support the war, therefore I don’t support those who carry out the war, it’s not strictly personal, it’s just logical.
As for your ‘murderer’ comment I never called you a murderer. But if you do kill someone in Iraq then you are a murderer in my eyes, plain and simple. A murderer is someone who intentionally kills someone illegally, and as far as I am concerned the war in Iraq was illegal, therefore any intentional killing done by soldiers in Iraq is murder.
And obviously a lot of people don’t like making decisions about dropping bombs, but clearly some of them get a kick out of it. How else do explain all the news shots of bombs with macho-bullshit messages written on them like ‘eat this Saddam’ or something equally stupid, considering that they are more likely to kill civilians than soliders or Saddam.
As for the ‘I don’t care if you don’t support my country, or its ideals of liberty’ I want to make it clear that I don’t have too much of a problem with a lot of U.S. citizens, at least those that didn’t support the war or either of the potential presidents (Bush and Kerry) and their parties.
But how can you think your government stands for freedom when they really stand for ‘American Hegemony’ over the rest of the world? Just because Bush says that you attacked Iraq for the cause of ‘freedom’ doesn’t mean that it’s true.
Do you think everybody in iraq wants to go? Of all the soldiers there it would difficult to find more then a small handful of washed up generals who want to be there for the same reasons as bush. The soldiers dont want to be there. Think we wanted to stop our lives midsentance and go kill or be killed? The only reason anybody has any drive or motivation to do what they do is to protect our own.
Bush put us in an akward situation. Made the soldiers a lot of enemies. We tend to band together. Can’t stand by with much ease if another soldier is dying.
That is all i see the war as right now. Other soldiers dying, damned reporters and contractors dying. I would do everything i could do to stop that.
Whatever reasons bush had to initially send us to iraq i do not agree with. he went about things the wrong way.
i have to think there is a difference being made. that there will be some good to come out of this.
People were getting hurt. It may not be the reason we went to iraq, but its a nice side effect that the oppression of the iraqi people will come to an end. that is worth fighting for.
keeping my fellow soldiers safe is something worth fighting for.
The people responsible for abuse in prisons, killing those who were no threat… yes, these people are wrong. They are prosicuted and punished to the extent of their crimes. if not, i pray justice finds them.
Our soldiers dont kill just to kill,
When we have broken bottles or rocks being thrown at us we dont kill everyone in sight.
There is some order to chaos.
There are rules of engagement.
Anyone who violates these rules should be and is punished.
I am going to iraq in a very short time,
when i get there, if i see another soldier with a knife to his throat, or gun to his back, what should i do?
What should i do when i find weapons pointed and fired at me?
What should i do when the bombs go off?
Should i do what must be done and kill those who would kill me or mine?
or should i just ask them nicely to stop and hope they do, and if i get killed it is all and well because i didnt have to murder anyone in self defense??
that is why i dont agree with your stance.
If you dont support the leaders, fine. Give the soldiers some leeway. Not all of them want to be doing what they are doing.
And its not as simple as jail time either if you turn your back on the war.
I wish it was that simple.
Well I agree that they are difficult circumstances, and that not many people would choose to be there. But I say again, you have free choice, you always have free choice. You had free choice when you joined the armed forces, and you have it now. You wouldn’t need to fight to save your friends if you all decided to disobey your government for once.
How is it not as simple as jail time? Do you mean the stigma and so on, you’ll be called a coward etc. I know, I’ve seen it happen through the media when some soldier decided he couldn’t go back to Iraq after home leave. But if you all organised and disobeyed on mass you wouldn’t have any problems, it’s only because people don’t want to let their friends down, but if you organised you could work it out.
Look, I’m not trying to say that it’s all the soliders fault, not at all. As far as I am concerned they are just pawns in the game of global politics, but they do bear some responsibility for not dissenting and disobeying. Do you really think that by joining the army and fighting and killing in Iraq you bear absolutley no responsibility for what has happened in Iraq whatsoever? You can’t deny your responsibility, however small.
You are going to Iraq, I say don’t if you don’t support the war and don’t want to risk being placed in a situation where you have to kill an innocent person. The way to try and sort out the situation in Iraq is to rapidly develop Iraqi infrastructure, public services (health care/education) etc and security services so they can defend themselves against the insurgency. The U.S. and others being there is doing them no good, all the ‘coalition’ is doing is making the insurgency more determined, and not doing enough by far to rebuild Iraq. However, the U.S. has made it clear that they won’t ever leave Iraq, so the Iraqis are screwed from both sides of the killing.
As for the punishment for the abuses and murders I don’t agree that justice has been done, not even close.
I agree. What these people did is wrong. They should be maxed out. and when i say maxed out i mean in the sense that the army executes (rarely but it happens) and gives life without parole to rapists. We are harsh on are criminals. I hope these people get what is coming to them. They are a disgrace to the uniform and the country and the people of the united states. i hope they rot in dankest of prisons.
I wish it was as simple as five years in the clink.
Consequences are far more drastic.
Felony Desertion.
Dishonorable Discharge.
With those two things on a persons record they would be lucky to get a job flipping hamburgers or sweeping streets. forget about acceptance into any schools. a brand of ‘coward’ follows those people around.
Oh, and the jailtime, thats not at any federal prison. that is at a military prison. i dont know if you know much about military prisons, but the tower of london in its height and glory sounds more appealing to me.
Oh and there’s that thing that deserters during wartime can be shot on sight by any member of the armed forces… yeah, dont like that one.
You make it sound so easy, like i can trade in 18 months in iraq for five years in the clink and get off scotch free.
That sort of thing would ruin anybodies life. they would be nothing and nobody.
I wish it was as easy as you make it seem… but its not worth the consequences to avoid the possibility of injuring or killing somebody.
Lemme tell you why i joined up with the army eh?
i didnt want to kill people. i wanted to help people. i saw all the good the army does. the good the army does in my community, not long ago my city flooded, the guard came in gave everyone food and water, filled sandbags, took care of the people. They help put out the wildfires that plague the state (ironicly enough, inspite of the flood we are pushing a 11 year draught). During the olympics in SLC they walked the streets to ensure security. I saw how much good they did for my community and i wanted to repay the debt and help my community in the ways they did.
I did not join to be a killer of men.
It is not something i want to do.
My brother is going to Iraq a little sooner i am. He doesnt want to go either, his wife will give birth to his firstborne son while he is gone. He wont see him until he is over a year old.
He wont be here for my sisters wedding. Or to meet his new neices. He joined the army because he felt he needed to serve this country that has been so good to him and our family. Not to be a killer.
I would do anything to ensure my brothers safety.
If i was faced with the situation with the choice of killing somebody to make sure he was safe… i would do it without hesitation.
I would do the same for any of the soldiers i serve with.
None of these kids joined to die for their country. I have a duty to them while in the service of my country to ensure their safety.
I dont care about or for the reasons bush stuck us in iraq. All i care about is keeping my soldiers safe, and hopefully leave behind a little life, liberty and pursuit of hapiness when we are done in iraq, reguardless of the goals of this adminstration.
MAC