Ok, i am convinced..

I don’t believe in coincidences.
and that depends on your definition for knowledge. Sure, we have much more advanced technological devices and better understanding of those matters, but where did it get us?

What do you think Einstein meant by saying:
“reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one”

Well, if the pineal gland is merely a physical functioning gland, why has it gotten much smaller? Our physical systems have improved significantly. At our ancestors time, people were much more “spiritual”, concentrating much less on the material. Do you think it’s just another coincidence ?

I’m not saying our ancestors understood quantum physics. Surely, I believe they didn’t (can’t be sure though). You don’t need to understand the physics behind the universe in order to realize the nature of the universe.

Sorry, but what’s Ad Hominems?
What good has the materialistic thinking brought upon mankind?

The Mayan Calendar does not imply on the world ending. This is a big misdirection.
An era is ending. And actually, as I said, a good one is about to unfold.
In no way I think the universe is about to end.

What I was trying to say is that how can you be certain of scientific proof? Some time ago, people on earth was just as certain as you are of the earth being round that it is indeed flat. It was “proven” that the atom was the smallest particle, no?
How can you be sure of anything? What I’m saying is that any scientific proof can be shaken. I don’t understand why you are accusing me of “begging the question”
I always have an open mind and I keep evolving and shaping my beliefs. Nonetheless, the fundamentals are the same. Keep in mind, many people are certain of life after death, those people have no doubts. I doubt there is one person in the world that would bet his life on the fact there isn’t anything after that.

It’s not exactly Clairaudience and Ill send you something soon enough.

Im saying I’m not guessing because I feel it, I live it and I see this reality every day, every minute. I see directly how my mind affects my life, from the tiniest things like parking spots to major issues. It’s much more complicated than that of course, and I believe that every person who will open his mind and try to see, will.
Today, I had an energetic activity in this course I’m taking with 10 other people and every time, activity is done, the electricity jumps on and off, when were just sitting and talking, nothing happens. Not to mention, the things I see and feel. Im just mentioning the light as a physical “proof”. Of course, you probably won’t believe me as that can’t be true.

Let’s get one thing straight first. I don’t believe in psychics. We are all “psychics”. We all have those powers. We just have to activate them, and every one is using them in one way or another. Did you ever know who was on the other side of the phone before answering? did you ever want someone to look at you from the other side of the street and suddenly he does? We are using them all the time, in one way or another.
Psychics who try to make money are probably frauds. I know more than one “psychic” and all of them are interested in helping much more than in money.

here is a scientific quote from a new research (finally…)

"During a cardiac arrest, all three criteria of clinical death are present: the heart stops beating, the lungs stop working, and the brain ceases functioning. Subsequently, there is a period of time—which may last from a few seconds up to an hour or longer—in which emergency medical efforts may succeed in resuscitating the heart and reversing the dying process. The experiences that individuals undergo during this period of cardiac arrest provide a unique window of understanding into what we are all likely to experience during the dying process.

In recent years, a number of scientific studies conducted by independent researchers have found that as many as 10-20 percent of individuals who undergo cardiac arrest report lucid, well-structured thought processes, reasoning, memories, and sometimes detailed recall of their cardiac arrest. What makes these experiences remarkable is that while studies of the brain during cardiac arrest have consistently that there is no brain activity during this period, these individuals have reported detailed perceptions that appear to indicate the presence of a high-level of consciousness in the absence of measurable brain activity.

These studies appear to suggest that the human mind and consciousness may in fact function at a time when the clinical criteria of death are fully present and the brain has ceased functioning. If these smaller studies can be replicated and verified through the definitive, large-scale studies of the Human Consciousness Project, they may not only revolutionize the medical care of critically ill patients and the scientific study of the mind and brain, but may also bear profound universal implications for our social understanding of death and the dying process."

“This has led some prominent researchers, such as the late Nobel-winning neuroscientist Sir John Eccles, to propose a dualist view of the problem, arguing that the human mind and consciousness may in fact constitute a separate, undiscovered entity apart from the brain.”

if this interests you
mindbodysymposium.com/human- … oject.html

Cheers

Are you implying that technological advancement is negative?* There is no obvious purpose behind science, but that does not preclude it from enhancing the quality of our lives and giving us a more accurate model of reality.

*Would you prefer that we continue this conversation by telegraph?

Why do we have an appendix?

Our ancestors were religious because they lacked the necessary tools to understand the nature of the world around them.

Could you elaborate on this further? It’s a bit unclear.

It doesn’t allow for obscene justifications for ethical malfeasance like dualism can. Belief in spirituality and religion in general is simply accepting ignorance.

Cartesian Skepticism? You’re better than that, relV.

Thank you. I’ll be sure to read it.

This seems to be similar to how people justify religious belief. They start with a conclusion and then seek out evidence that supports it rather than the other way around. It’s not right.

I would check your wiring.

All of those examples you posit are coincidental.

Regardless, jumping to the conclusion that we all have extrasensory powers is hasty at best.

No, im not implying technology is bad.
But, although the advancement, there are wars and people gets killed over pride, money and ego drives.

This is again, based upon the premise of the modern man that he is the most knowing of all. Thinking in that very misleading way in which civilization started 5000 years ago and evolved to this result.

I wasn’t saying they were familiar with physics but with the universe’s nature.

That’s sad for me to hear. I dislike religion, or more accurately, any dogmatic beliefs, but “spirituality”, it’s not something I accept, that’s what Im trying to say. Its something I feel all the time.

Im familiar with Cartesian but I don’t understand to which part of the quote you are implying this.
In any case, you don’t think that what science nowadays believes to be proven can be disproved later on?

There is no way for me to convince you neither is there any need upon my part.
I’m telling you I see the way my thoughts influence my reality, directly. It has nothing to do with religion, I am not religious at all. by the way, Modern science discussion on these topics is growing larger by the day.

You can say everything in the universe is coincidental.
Any comments on the early conclusions from the Human Consciousness Project?
Are you familiar with Robert Monroe’s books?
Did you read the passage I sent you via pm?

By the way, I see you are a member of The Chronicles.
You believe SDs are possible?
How would you suggest those events take place?

This is a rather intense discussion I must say!
And I find it interesting how this would have been the last forum I’d expect to see a debate like this going on…
I, perhaps inaccurately, expected most ‘dreamers’ to be at least mildly aware of the infinite possibilities that exist within and without our minds…
And I think that a mass shared experience of these limitless possibilities experienced while dreaming and lucid dreaming is rather good ‘proof’ that there is soooooo much more going on up there and soooo much more for our society to learn about the True Nature of our minds.
Our brains cannot distinguish the difference between whats going on in the physical world and whats happening in the mental world… so this suggests that when determining whats real or not real, it would be an error to say that what happens in our dreams and thoughts is not reality, since to the mind, it is as real as what happens when we’re awake…
…and since we all experience this limitless reality every time we sleep… we would be simply ignoring a real part of ourselves to deny this truth.

I must admit that I can be somewhat impatient when discussing issues like this with people who only let themselves believe what can be scientifically proven in the material and physical…
At least half of my experience of reality is beyond the physical realm and so it just seems ridiculous to limit my beliefs about this universe to things only ‘provable’ in the physical.

To each his own I suppose…

Namaste…
(which means the Divinity within Me honors the Divinity within You)
…whether You are aware of your Divinity or not :content:

Yes, it is based on that premise. It’s hardly misleading, however.

The universe’s nature? That is physics.

Cartesian Skepticism is extreme reductionist skepticism to the point of being self-refuting, employed rhetorically by the French philosopher René Descartes in his Meditations. This famously birthed the Malevolent Demon/Brain in a Vat/The Matrix Hypothesis.

It can be rewritten to a certain extent.

This reminds me of another debacle…

Here we go again. Why do all “psychics” do this to me?

Everything in the universe is there because of discernible causes and effects.

I read Robert Monroe’s book Journeys out of the Body a year or two ago. I’ll look back into it.

Likewise, I read the passage you sent me and am in the process of investigating it.

I don’t believe that they are, but I would be more than happy to learn the contrary.

I’ve no idea how such a thing could occur as I don’t believe it is possible.

I find lucid dreams a very entertaining diversion, a playground for our Freudian Id. And here we go again with the infinite possibilities thing again. You and Rhonda Byrne should write a book together.

Dreams are evidence that our subconscious minds are capable of some fascinating creations, but hardly more.

The crucial difference is that reality is experienced by everyone and so can be independently verified. If I dream that I jumped out of an airplane, I don’t go around saying that I’m a professional skydiver.

Should I let myself believe that dreams can be evidence for anything other than our inner minds’ machinations?

[mod]please respect other member’s views[/mod]

I dont think you would be happy… because then you would have to totally reevaluate your beliefs about the universe and I get the feeling that you wouldnt like to admit that the ‘gobbledygook’ new agers might have been right about some things :wink:

YES!

Are you saying that my experience of reality is ‘gobbledygook’?
…hmmmmm
thats a pretty narrow minded way of responding to the Truth I experience every moment…
Almost seems like a defense mechanism to me…

If there turned out to be some means by which people could share a dreamscape, I’d be thrilled. Who wouldn’t want that to be true? You can’t patronizingly deem me closed-minded, however. I don’t think Shared Dreaming is possible because there’s no evidence leading me to believe that it is. Honestly, I’d love to believe you. It’s just highly unlikely.

It’s not a defense mechanism. The burden of proof is on you. Your “reality” could be distorted by your presuppositions about the world. What I would deem a WILD you might deem an Astral Projection, what I deem thermodynamics you may deem psychic powers, etc.

well… a deja vu (i know it’s spelled wrong) is just a single moment you think you have seen before. plus, the secret of the deja vu is already discovered. they are nothing more than simple false memories.
but if it was more than just a single moment, you might be right that mankind has a lot of abilities that are yet to discover. my friend says he has dreamt of me 4 years before we have ever met. so either it is a false memory or there really is the ability of foreseeing the future.

this i can only agree with.

I never said I need proof to Know Truth…

And Your reality is also distorted by Your presuppositions…
Every one of us creates our own reality, and no one can ever truthfully say that the reality that someone else is experiencing is not real…
Reality is dependent on the observer and so if One is observing it, whether while dreaming or awake, then that is unquestionably the reality for that person.

Couldn’t say it better myself.

I didn’t see any questions there. Just “this is what I feel” so it must be true. Well, what I felt when I read

was sadness for the distinct and prejudiced disdain for the scientific method, sneering quotations, and a horror of any suggestion that it’s related to something physical…

…like we need to remain ignorant for something to be magical or miraculous. Was that all true, Leabote? By relV’s logic, it must be, it’s what I felt. That’s the impression I got, and those are the ideas and attitudes that I objected to.

But, if nobody wants a discussion of where deja vu might possibly come from, or how we can expand this skill to have any advantage in daily life, or what such predetermination means… but just want a debate over who’s more enlightened or superior to whom, I’m out. Have fun!

EllyEve: I think you need to at least credit the fact that RelV has tried to quote scientific sources to back up what he believes. He has not relied totally on anecdotal evidence and personal experience.

Secondly I think it is partly your choice of language (and the way it is being interpreted) that is causing some of the conflict. Am I right in thinking that you would be open to the possibility of psychics, shared dreams etc. as long as their was evidence from a reliable source? I have yet to hear of a definitive proof against these supernatural occurrences (just a lack of evidence for them) so a default position of skepticism is appropriate, as long as it does not become dogmatic.

RelV: You do speak rather critically of any science that doesn’t back up your world view. You’ll happily supply scientific research which backs you up, but criticise those that disagree with you and imply that they are dishonest or wilfully ignore the “truth”. This could be pretty insulting to people who value science and respect scientists. And it seems unlikely that there is a great conspiracy of scientists.

Another problem is that while you have experienced the supernatural and feel no need to prove that to us, you are involved in defending your beliefs. You expect us to be more open-minded, but we have not experienced what you have and we do not have evidence from reliable sources to rely on. How can you expect us to believe something because you feel it is true, but feel no need to prove it?

Science dictates that we only believe what we have a good reason to believe, what we have observed to be true. If you think it is the scientific approach that is at fault then I believe we are at an impasse that further discussion is unlikely to resolve.

Well, don’t expect to be taken seriously. If someone asks for evidence and your answer is that you “Know Truth”, you’ll rightfully be dismissed as a crackpot.

I’m honestly concerned for you at this point. You’re either trolling me or you’ve totally lost it.

Your perceptions of reality can be clouded in any number of ways. Asserting that everyone has his/her own reality is contradictory to the very notion of one. Whether you like it or not, reality exists indifferent to your beliefs about it, at least on the macrocosmic level. From what I can tell, your obscene beliefs are acting as a censor through which your observations become muddled and distorted. Again, this is like someone claiming that they’re a professional skydiver after jumping out of a plane in a dream. It’s absurd.

Our minds have the unnerving capability to deceive themselves and so anecdotal evidence is rightfully ignored in the scientific realm. You can’t claim something to be true, or as you prefer “True”, without substantiation.

Lastly, thank you Tomothy for injecting some well-overdue reason into this argument.

hmm… Maybe this got a bit too heated. Let me explain some of the concepts.
I am not saying there is some kind of conspiracy among scientists neither they are consciously avoiding the truth.
Psychologists keep changing their opinions about the human mind and nature. The one thing they do know is that we do not like change. Most people denies every thing that they do not comprehend as fact at a given moment as complete nonsense. Most of them, deny any chance of those things to ever be real.
I do not intend to insult any scientists or any people at all. I respect every person.
I express my sorrow for the fact that a vast part of the researchers today are really trying to validate their own beliefs in their eyes than sincerely trying to validate those unknown beliefs today. Science is the art of “proving” things that has no logic in them until that proof comes. Every big scientific discovery opened a big door, up until that moment, people will simply not believe it is possible. That is science.
I am not saying scientists are ignoring the truth or being dishonest. Their Subconscious is telling them it’s not possible and their conscious mind then has to make up excuses and explanations for the phenomena. There has been more than one incident in which psychics agreed to conduct experiments under scientific conditions. Scientists were never able to disprove the reality of those psychic activities. Nor did they ever accepted the reality of those events. They always dug up another explanation of why it can’t be. I don’t mind if you believe me or not. I respect every opinion and I am sorry if anyone got hurt or insulted by any of my words.
Remember that any researchers that ever made real progress thought about things that at that time seemed irrational to almost every mind, remember what keeps science alive. I myself, personally believe that science will soon discover the continuity of life after death.
You can read a bit about the World ITC if you are interested.
Another piece of information:
Thomas Elva Edison (inventor of the electric light, motion picture camera and photograph for those who are not familiar) was busy during the 1920’s to achieve a machine to communicate with spirits “from the dead”.
His assistant wrote:
“Edison and I are
convinced that in the fields of psychic research will yet be discovered facts
that will prove of greater significance to the thinking of the human race than
all the inventions we have ever made in the field of electricity.”
Edison himself wrote:
“If our personality survives then it is strictly logical or
scientific to assume that it retains memory, intellect and other facilities and
knowledge we acquire on Earth. Therefore, if we can evolve an instrument so
delicate as to be affected by our personality as it survived in the next life,
such an instrument, when made available, should record something”.
In 1967 a researcher, Franz Seldel, developed an instrument known as the “psychophone” for recording voices from the Astral worlds.
There has been many scientists involved in those fields…

One last thing, just think for a second about the fact that your conscious mind is less than 10% of your entire brain… Do you realize what this means?
Have you ever wondered why children until the age of 5 can learn languages and are much much more receptive than adults? We all have those powers…

Edit: I just remembered another Einstein’s quote that is quite relevant.

“The world we have created is a product of our thinking; it cannot be changed without changing our thinking.”

Genkai
I have yet to received a response from you regarding to the text Ive sent you?
or the question about The Chronicles?
or the question about: “reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one”
and what do you think about the research I showed you?

Regardless, you are implying that they are subconsciously deluding themselves. You and Adahni keep positing relativist fallacy after relativist fallacy and then act indignant when people such as myself ignore your claims.

Don’t bring psychologists into this conspiracy theory of yours. We don’t like change, but that doesn’t prevent us from reforming our belief systems when the evidence demands it. The reason that most people ignore supernatural claims is that they’re false.

Covering your ass? Nice.

However, what you are claiming is pseudoscience.

The reason that they denied the existence of psychic phenomena is because there is always a logical explanation. There is no reason to fall back on Psi theories. I’m glad to hear that you respect others opinions, but I have to take offense to the absurdities you are spewing.

I don’t.

Alva.

Indeed.

It’s funny you should mention that. As a matter of fact, I’ve done my research. In the book Spook by Mary Roach, this very invention is scrutinized on page 205. The Psychophone is hardly anything paranormal. It’s a curiosity and nothing more.

I am so sick of hearing this nonsensical statistic. The quote means that we use 10 percent of our conscious mind at a given time. The rest of the brain is in a different active state. I implore you, the next time you try to misquote Albert Einstein please show a bit more tact.

Because their minds are still growing and hence they find it easier to learn new languages. It’s not that they have psychic powers.

I answered your answer about The Chroniclers. I do not believe that Shared Dreaming is possible and find the potential logistics of the phenomena to conflict with the laws of physics, but I am willing to be pleasantly surprised.

Albert Einstein’s quote is poetic, but that’s not to suggest that he believed in any of the things you claim. He was a materialist with deist leanings.

As for your evidence, I’m looking at it and searching for some documents pertaining to it.

Just out of interest Genkai, have you read Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming? In it Stephen LaBerge describes how scientists refused to believe that Lucid Dreaming was possible despite the testimony of many who had experienced it?

It took someone who had actually experienced a lucid dream to organise a study that validated the claims of Lucid Dreaming and even now I think you’ll find the concept is probably treated with skepticism and scorn by many scientists.

Sidenote: I read this interesting article about Einstein a little while back.

EWLD is one of my favorite books. I admire LaBerge and his efforts to get Lucid Dreaming recognized by the scientific community. I don’t think that a parallel can be drawn between Lucid Dreaming and psychic phenomena, though.

And thank you very much for linking to that article about Einstein. He didn’t mean for any of his famous phrases to be taken literally and used the word God as a metaphor.

dude i am in AP Psychology 11th grade right now. and i am sooo pissed that scientists just always want proof proof proof!!! i mean come on! if u neglect powers they will go away and wont be there to show u what life really is!!! and quantum physics says reality is affected by the OBSERVER which we all are!!! i cant wait for ch7 which is all about dreams and sleep and subconscious!!! i cannot wait to see the look on ppl’s and my teachers face when i tell them this cool stuff!!! :wink: :grin:

Why not Genkai?

Excellent use of sarcasm there. :lol:

You were joking, right?