um, don’t mean to be picky but that was not my quote. That was r3m0t 's.
Personaly I think that LD 's are in your mind and so DC have no rights.
Are there things beyond LD 's. 
Umn… did you guys read over my last post? A DC told me the answer… heh. There isn’t any more speculation to be made 
DCs want us to do what ever we want. That is their purpose… without us they have no purpose.
Well this is half a joke… but the DC did tell this to me herself.
[/quote]
Okay guys there are way too many things to address right now, but I like this discussion… I took place in another similar one yesterday, and expressed my views of torturing, raping, killing, with mal-intent… enjoying it…
but i’d like to comment about some of the things i’ve read in here so far… i know some of what i’m about to say has been address, specifically the DC is actually just a non-lucid babblingly stupid normal dreamer… so anyways…
you state opinion and Theory as fact.
Reality is nothing more than your perceptions, is it not?
" I think many people new to the concept of lucid dreaming get hung up here, as it’s often tough to accept that you can experience something consciously that is not reality. "
If you experience it, it is REAL to you, and it is very real to your mind, right? Your mind says you just raped someone… and that you didn’t give any second thought to it. It’s going to file those memories.
I agree.
Now keep in mind I’m saying what I"m about say while not beliving in God, and CERTAINLY not the christian/jewish God.
But think of it like this… assuming he is real, which a lot of you probably do… we are just projections of his mind… think about it… really think about it… God thought us up, we came to be.
To God we might just be useless and flawed creations made by mere fragmented thoughts… DOES THAT MAKE IT OKAY FOR HIM TO SMITE THE HELL OUT OF US ON A CONSISTANT BASIS?
These issues get so deeply entangled in philosophy… I’d love to sit back, take something, and ponder them for a while… maybe some day…
I’ve validated encounters with real life people in dream, and, it could be coincidence, so… I’m going to keep testing, becuase… I can’t tell what triggers them to seem real, and what triggers them to not be. and if they are real, whether i’m interfacing with them, their subconscious, or, they HAVE to be dreaming at the same time as you.
If they are dreaming at the same time at you, that is more than enough reason to explain why you can control them and they don’t make much sense… if you were in an ND and thought you were a sponge, I sure bet some pro LDer could manipulate you to no end, and might even think you aren’t real.
Hmm…
That isn’t really true, you can reenter your exact exit point at will if you are in the right circumstances, they exist as memories in your head, at the very least, and can be jumped right back into…
But… existing elsewhere, who knows…
oh and one final note, the only reaosn we think dreams aren’t real, is because that is what we were told by birth… if you grew up and no one EVER explained to you what a dream was, we’d be having a completely different discussion right now.
I don’t think the mind can really separate dream from reality all that well… I mean, yes you know when you are “awake” usually, and dream memories are hard to hold onto, but the experiences themselves, they are just as real as real life can be at times… hence the terrifying nature of nightmares.
in the dream world everything makes sense to you (unless you are hyper lucid and thinking about the real world) but while in that sensible dream world, the real world tends to mean nothing to you, might even contradict things you “know” in the dream world…
like you “know” you’re a spy, not a college student, that’s nonsense…
it could be we live entirely complex lives in the dream world and only remember fragments of them, just as while we dream we only remember fragments of our real lives.
there are huge memory gaps i and we all have of dreams, no matter how intricate a dream was and how well we remember it, we still kidn of feel like there was so much more that slipped away.
who knows how real they could be? We could live thousands of different lives… this life we are living now could be a dream to us in another life we live while dreaming… or… something.
/end rambling.
I think I might have already answered most of this in the topic we discussed yesterday. So I wont repeat the whole thing here.
I do want to respond to one point that I do give some credence to:
To a certain extent this is true. You can remember things you do in LD 's just like anything you do in real life and every thing does feel real to you. However, at the same time you also know that it is not real thus, I do not think it gets “filed” into your memory in a way where it can adversely affect your psyche any more than a movie or game would.
I continue to believe that LD ‘s occur only in your mind and there is nothing wrong with indulging yourself.
Now don’t get me wrong. I don’t think you should maim , kill, saluter etc in every LD you have. (Though it is ok if you do) I just believe that there are more interesting and fascinating things you can do with you lucid dreams as well.
Happy Dreaming
like i said… i consulted the DC elders and they said that a DCs right are the rights you give them…
Thou who gives life can take it away… their purpose is what ever you deem it… they are real, but they are only real because you make them real.
i responded to your argument against exercising negativity in the thread here, so i won’t rehash it, i’m just gonna respond to some specific things
you’re guilty of the same
aids, sars, influenza, the common cold, tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, landslies, avalanches, asteroid that wiped out the dinousaurs, tsunami, mosquitoes, and
i don’t agree with the idea that we are characters in god’s dream (i actually just turned in a philosophy paper which argued why that concept is wrong), but for the sake of argument if i supposed that WL was god’s dream, i’d say that he smites the hell out of us on a pretty consistent basis indeed, and most religious people i know go around saying that we can’t question the will of god, and are usually too god-fearing to wave a disapproving finger at him
If you die in God’s dream, you cant go back, I mean there are consequences, so you need morals. Also, in dreams there are no consequences, if you kill somone, they can come back, also once you wake up all the dream characters are GONE, so its like you killed them.
Therefore, what Jeff is saying, is that it is immoral to wake up becasue you are destroying or killing the dream characters. Im sorry Jeff but your guilty of murder or how about this, our dreams are not real, they are an ILLUSION, they are not real.
Hehe, what if it isn’t actually true and hypothetically (and unprovably) they’re all false? You would be paying a lot, wouldn’t you?
Also, you should consider the possibility of the dreamers calling themselves.
Well if you believe in “DC elders” then how do you know that they weren’t “evil spirits” that were lying to you?
and I’m sorry, but you have no right to take anyone’s life away. If you were my son I would have no right to murder you whenever I saw fit.
That argument just makes no sense. In the context of DC s they are “real” but only becuase you make them, how do you mean “real”? By my definition if they were REAL then you shouldn’t kill them, and that they (the ones deliberately created) would exist until you ceased to exist, or entirely forgot about them, or they would go on in their location forever. If you just mean “real” in the sense that you are perceiving it, like a drawing is real… sure.
I don’t think the issue is with deliberately created DCs, though, I think it’s with random people that you encounter, that you didn’t will into being. For all you know they could be real people somewhere… especially if they are resistant to your actions… hence the SD concept… I can’t see much harm in creating something from imagination and destroying it, other than the psychological issues.
but it’s the non created ones, etc… that we are debating isn’t it? The ones that don’t want to be killed, that fight back, that act unexpectedly, that show intelligence… that aren’t easily controllable.
and especially encounters with people in real life.
Assuming they are real, you’ve created real people (and i don’t really think we can create real people, I’m mainly arguing some of the people encountered could be real) it’s not like they are gone, it’s like YOU are gone, you’ve exited their location of residence. This can be argued in a huge number of different ways.
For all we know, we are just receiving tons of sensory input from other/our worlds, but due to translation problems and the interactive nature, our thoughts cloud and pollute the dream “reality” and shape it into a more non-objective nature. Explaining inconsistancies, etc.
But ultimately, no matter what we think, isn’t it more than reasnable to not do something to a DC that he doesn’t want done to him?
That still leaves the huge fields of easily moldable mindless characters to mess with.
"aids, sars, influenza, the common cold, tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, landslies, avalanches, asteroid that wiped out the dinousaurs, tsunami, mosquitoes, and "
So you think everytime something dies, God literally kills it? What happened to “free will” that he supposedly gave us?
But that’s not the point, the question I asked you, was does that make it right for him to kill us as he sees fit.
The way I see it is either this God, supposing he exists, doesn’t know what he is doing too well, hence why he gets upset by our actions, or he deliberately makes people that he knows are goin to displease him, yet still gets mad.
He’s supposed to be all knowing, and all loving, so why make a guy be born a “Satanist” or whatever, then send him to hell for something that YOU did, not him, since you made him that way, ensured that he lived the correct life to be like that.
So… if we have free will then I don’t think God sits there and randomly punishes us and kills us for fun…
But the point is, is it right to make something REAL, make something that feels… and torture it?
I mean… thought we don’t 100% make our children, I can’t imagine any of you condoning child abuse and torture…
So… is it right to torture your creations, supposing they are REAL, as real as you, more or less, and aren’t just simulations of your concepts of “reality” created by your mind?
LOL… I think you took me a little bit to literally.
ANY way… Last night I had another lucid dream and an experience with a DC that was totally different.
I wouldn’t read that elders one… that was half joking, but instead the previous posts… I woudl also check out my dream journal I talk about that experience and another.
ah ok
well i’ve revised my post several times, trying to clarify things some, but anyway…
I keep testing them and they usually refuse to tell me they are created by my subconscious, yet MOST of the time I’m pretty sure they are, more or less… based upon what I’m thinking and expecting.
But I keep saying “don’t lie please, just tell me” so… I don’t know… if they originate from an unconscious mind it probably doesn’t have a concept of “lying” … hmm… the other problem is I ask family members and friends usually, not just someone I find in a scene somewhere… they tend to be more honest.
But I really hope I’m not sharing all these screwed up dreams with my family and their minds.
holy reality
The key word here is natural disaster which has nothing to do with free will.
However, you have said the one word that proves our point. The one word that I think proves (to me at least) that our dreams are strictly in our imagination and that DC are not living beings. That word is FREE WILL. Not a single DC has it. I can make my DC move, dance laugh or cry. I can control them in the same way a puppet is at the mercy of the puppeteer. They have no soul or sence of self. Without the dreamer they are the minds equivalent of pieces of plastic, wood and strings.
Happy Dreaming
i’m sure you’ve had a DC that you couldn’t control… I know I have.
For example, i’m lucid, goofing around, some guy goes running down the hall insanely fast, I can’t catch him, force him to stop, get him to come back, no matter what I do.
Yet I can with a little will make random people do really strange things… so I mean…
Like I said though, imagine you are lucid, and someone else isn’t, imagine how easy they would be to control… haven’t you ever had a dream where you were dazed, confused, and usure of what was going on?
I agree with you though generally speaking, if you can control them they PROBABLY aren’t real… once when I controlled a DC (a recurring demon) he told me it hurt him though… expectations aside, it’s kind of odd how extremely powerfully he expressed that.
I would certainly close the argument at this point; I think milod789 has raised the best point in aeons.
Well, I think most dreams are in our own minds, except for possible shared
dreams, and I do think that there can be other influences such as angels (good and bad ones) on our dreams. I don’t think anything exterior can be harmed by what we do to a DC.
Yet, when we do something in a dream and are conscious - really conscious - of it, it indicates something about us. Something inside of us.
Is it good, is it bad? Think about it a bit. Does the act make you feel good, or bad?
The DC’s are part of ourselves generally and may represent things like problems, feelings, concerns, etc. What will maiming or killing them do to our own self? I mean internally. There might be a bad psychological effect too.
It’s YOUR world, YOUR mind, so it’s your decision, that’s correct and I agree with you. I choose to be more positive than simply going around butchering people in my lucid dreams. There is more to life than being a terminator.
About whether DC’s have rights: do your problems, feelings, etc have rights? Not really but I would try to work with them and solve them, rather than attack them which is at best pointless.
I agree with milod that LDing for self improvement or other spiritual reasons would not benefit from DC mistreatment. I think it is better to see what a DC monster means and represents rather than blow it up and
create some revenging DC instead. Is it not better to practice peaceful LD’s rather than infecting yourself with violence? Putting violence in your core might not be the best thing to do.
What I would ask is that you people who insist on doing various things to your DC’s, would post back about any ‘dream avengers’ they encounter. I know some of you have said you don’t have any. Perhaps you would begin to get nightmares etc. Would you post this or would you hide it?
Incorrect IMO. True morality belongs to the heart i.e. that part of you which makes conscious decisions. Guess what, it’s active during LD’s (at least the ones where you do have enough element of conscious awareness and choice of behaviour). I believe it is connected to the critical faculty.
I agree - if according to your beliefs, an activity is harmful, it’s best not to do those things in the LD too, because of the effect on your soul.
I will watch action movies which have lots of violence, but that’s different from doing the violence yourself in a dream.
Balance is important, right… Be positive in one’s LD’s and you will get more out of them, that’s my opinion.
Just because people are even thinking DC should have rights, im going to do a mass murder of them in my next ld. I will beat them, torture them, burn them alive, cut their left legs off with a chainsaw, put a bunch of them in a car crusher, push some off a building, hang 1 from a tree and beat it like a piniata with a samurai sword, rape some, eat some, make them kill each other, etc.
HELL YA!