Solution for all of yours question

Beyond Dreaming
1

First, I would like to introduce myself. My name is Miroslav, living in Novi Sad, Serbia. I am 26 yrs old, and currently finishing my studies (physics and computer sciences). I haven’t been here for a while (3-4 years), but I remember very well this forum.
I am a natural dreamer, with a lot of sleep paralisys episodes occuring frequently since my 14. till recently. I have been diagnosed with mild form of narcolepsy, which didn’t interfere with my living a lot, but giving me a chance to have LD quite easily and spontaneously.
I couldn’t believe what this forum has turned itself into, so I decided to put this message… I don’t blame any one of you, I was the same. i belived in all of this crap, soul, soul mate, spiritualguide, etc…

FIRST OBEE, NDE…
All of this is based on the existence of the soul. Does soul exist?
1% od worldwide population are schiziophrenic, 3% are psychotic, so if you have seen it, it doesn’t mean it really exist. MacDouglas conducted an experiment in 1907. measuring weight of soul to 21gram. Pour yourself 0.21dL of water and see for yourself how fast it evaporates on your skin on 37 degrees C. He had just 6 patients, with 2 of them non measurable. I argue that his methods were scientific. (SCIENTIFIC means that you have testable hypotesis and tests to validate it. Test must be objective, with method specified, and repeatable around globe. Variables must be measurable with good accuracy…) It is hardly possible to say that his test was scientific one!
To cut the long story short and skip the very important details (like children who in NDE see LIVING relatives, or comp simulation based on NMRI data of human brains showing tunells and flashes, or different stories form people from different cultures, or JUST THE FACT THAT NOONE HAS DIED SO FAR because they were able to tell the story) or scientific explanations (seizure simulation, epinephrine release) one thing is for clear. KETAMINE, one wiledly used anestetic, is proof for itself. Who doesn’t belive it, he might just consult doctor for prescription and buy it in pharmacy, or on the street. Near death experience is GUARANTEED!
I had about 100 of OBE or astral projections… I really liked these experiences, till I FIGURED OUT that these are no more than ORDINARY THEMATIC LDs!!! You have some presumtions about IT because you have read about it, and finaly you have lucid dream which reflects ASTRAL PROJECTION THEME you have read about. Someone wrote about it, let’s say, because of accident when he had NDE due to brain mechanism to prevent neural damage by releasing KETAMINE. I will not mention this time total sensless of idea of SOUL… I understand that few 1000 years when idea is born, cybernetics and science were practicaly non-existant, so my I was not my ego then,but my SOUL. Have you ever, really, thought about that concept of SOUL? WHAT is it? How do you detect it? On what it depends? If you have alzheimer, did your soul change? If you die young do you have old soul and vice versa? Why do we need neurotransmiters and 10^10 neurons then? Why do you need anything more than this? Is this not enough? Do you know enough of physics, medicine, biology, chemistry too add something important to them, like SOUL? I don’t think that science lacks SOUL! I do think that you cannot imagine nothingness and religion is here to feel that gap. As you cannot imagine what is behind space and time, you cannot imagine yourself to not exist. So, there is immortal soul. Isn’t that plain stupid? If you cannot understand evolution it doesn’t implicitly means that God’s creation of life is right!
Read something on subject of medicine, psychology… Read Nietzsche, Kafka, Dostoyevski, Sartre, Camus… But in the first place THINK! Science and reason is based on doubt and suspicion not on plain belief. If God has made everything on purpose, why do we have our brains and intelectual capacity then? Not to read and believe!
PS if it is hard to get ketamine, there is a way to induce PANIC ATTACK. I succeeded by trying to induce more LD by believing that everything is a dream… and not real… everything changed and for first time I experienced DEREALISATION. Few year of DEREALISATION and DEPERSONALISATION followed. When I got used to them they dissapeared. It caused much of EXISTENTIALISM reading, and understanding. now EXISTENTIALISM is my way of life and I LOVE IT. I AM FREE, are you? I don’t have illusions anymore, I see things clearly (metaphoricaly speaking of course:).

SPIRITUAL GUIDE…
Also, I have believed in this one… I have been looking for him. Few times I had found him, but after careful INTROSPECTION neither of them was He… They had flaws, I recognised them. They were my dream characters, I created them. Every single time, after careful investigation, I have found out that they were created by my wishes, fears, ambitions, deeply rooted in my UNCONSCIOUS. It is not easy to understand one’s UNCONSCIOUS MIND (which btw consist of ID, EGO, and SUPEREGO just like the CONSCIOUS mind). So, If you haven’t realized this, you haven’t carefuly investigated your thoughts, fears, memory, recent events, desires, longings… YOU HAVE CREATED YOUR SPIRITUAL GUIDES BECAUSE YOU BELIVE THEM TO EXIST!!! DREAMLAND IS LAND OF POSSIBILITY AND CREATION. Everything is allowed here (or better to say much more likely then in real world, because quantum physics allows existence of miracles here also). For you they are real, for me, and many others (maybe not on this forum, I am sad to say) THEY ARE NOT REAL! What make you think that you know better unconscious mind then Jozef Breuer o Freud???.. Both of them whole life investigated it through hipnosys.
I know how to hypnose. 7 years ago I did it on one friend I hardly knew. I did regression to past, his childhood etc. to time event where he dissociated from himself. I called for his consciousness and IT ANSWERED… IT WAS TOTALLY TERRIFYING, voice was like 100 years old, and he was all wet in his sweat. I will not forget that event till end of my days. It asked me why I don’t rejoin them (his 2 distant egoes) .He said ‘because It is your job’! I told him that I think He/It should do that, because I can’t made him accept that child, and it/he did it… FOr a long time I believed the consiousness to be some spiritual guide… But now? You know why it is called superego? It is your upgraded ego, brand new one, your handy, personal policeman, mother and father, you caretaker and your punisher, your guide through your life, because without it we would need much greater police force. He has evolved because of our needs. Our race needed it, not to kill ourselves. When that gene mutated, tribes with it killed between themselves much lesser and reproduced more often so now all of us have it (natural selection principle tends to lessen the differences between us). It is here to feel OURS, YET EXTERNAL TO US. That is why is Christianity so popular, they tend to dwell on our ignorance of origin and sense of subconscious. Truth is not what you feel, truth exist independent of our feeling. truth is very unlikely to be a Christian way… I always believed that Christianity is composed in such a way that you cannot prove it not to be true. I was wrong. Theodore Drange introduced to us a hell of a logical proof!

SHARED DREAMS
Again, I have believed in this one so much… I have read all of your posts. Some, just 1 maybe, is more convincing than the others. But, still… You are really lacking the capacity to work through cause-consequence relation!!! OK, let me first say something. I am apsolutely NATURAL L Dreamer. So far on countless occasions I have tried to make shared experience. I have never succedded. My brother never dreamt about me, my long term ex girlfriend, my mother, my friends… I have always asked. I don’t make logical mistake here. I don’t imply because I have never succeeded that it doesn’t EXIST. but of existential philosophical principle says NON EXISTENCE OF ANYTHING IS NOT TO BE PROVEN!!! Again it doesn’t say that it doesn’t exist, but… I CANNOT PROVE IT TO BE WRONG, but YOU ALSO CERTAINLY CANNOT PROVE IT TO BE RIGHT! Most convincing was the dream of guy driving car, meeting frind with papers going to empty school? GUys, doesn’t that says that two of you are going to the very same school? Freud told us that dreams depict our ID which is consisted of our desires, fears, habits, whatever… I belive that you drive car! Even here in Serbia almost everyone has it own car! It is natural for us to dream a car. If your friend is going to school by foot, it is unlikely that you will be dreaming of him going there by teleport, and bringing pacemakers and dildoes if you have test or exam on the very next day. School was empty. That was intriguing?! It must be symbol of something, but…I will not comment on the stupid experiences like my women wanted to enter my dreams and started rubbing agains me, while at the same time I rubbed against her? Are you… Oh my, I started to comment. Think about it for youself.
But, not to be totaly senseless and respectless of your belief, I have similar… Till the present day I am not sure what to think about it. I have sleeping next to my ex girl, and beeing an afternoon nap, I easily slipped into Sleep paralisys. it is terrible experience, but after you get to know it, you just like it. After awakening she said ‘I have experienced that horrible thing you always were talking about… That SP. It was terrible…’ It was like my SP were transmited to her to…Maybe, just maybe… like when current in one coil induce current in another, but it is far from hypothesis, not to tell scientific theory…

Ok I am writing this for 50 minutes. Sorry for grammar, I can do it much better but I do not have time to correct mistakes, after all here is 2:50 AM, and I am too sleepy. BTW English is not my native language. I know I miss a lot of prepositions, you will survive anyway…
For your convinience, it would be good to explore
let’s say
www.ingfidels.org
skepdic.com
www.sceptic.com

you could work through theory of science. What make distinction between science and religion. TO remind yourself that christians didn’t recognised round earth around round sun model… ANd to see that it happens just now with evolution. Microevolution is totally proven, macroevolution has some issues, but… Your problem arises from believing in ideas like souls and creation, which are totaly non-scientific, no matter what intelligent design theory sites and scientific creativism sites say. It is crap, learn something about science and see for yourself.

OK too long. I got bored and too sleepy. No harsh words intended. Only the best wishes and intentions. Keep a good work and keep dreaming.
Cvele

PS I expect constructive comment or no comments at all. Thanx

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:roll: So what wind blew in this dark cloud :dark:

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Hi cvelee, welcome to the forum!

First of all let me say your piece was quite readable and understandable. However to me personally, you seem to discount anything that you did not experience yourself or that was not proved by science. What does that say? Nothing at all. It only tells me that your point of view is limited (no pun intended) yet understandable. Look at your experience in shared SP (almost a SD?). If you would have never experienced this, would you believe it to be possible?

However I agree that much of spirituality these days is crap. People believe too easy and spirituality became a fast food consumption product. Everyone seems to think he or she can OBE at will and have SD’s easily, etc. I agree most of this is based on wishful thinking. However not all people are like that. Believe it or not, there are those of us who have come to experience that there’s more to life that science can tell us, and we aren’t part of the wishfull thinkers, nor lunatics, in my opinion. “Spiritual” ideas can also be based on a combination of personal experiences, scientific scrutiny and logical thinking.

If you are interested, I wrote an article on this subject, I posted it a while back in this thread.

Ps: what do you say to experiences of people having NDE’s on no brain activity (no cortex activity, so how do they “see”?).

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Agree with Xetrov here.Just wanted to add that this forum turned into one of best sites around about lucid dreaming and dont see why you dissapointed with it.
It just became popular, attracted plenty of new people, each of them with own beliefs and own questions.Purpose of the forum is to let thoughts and ideas flow.
Anyways…welcome back:)

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Hi cvelee, you’re young so I’ll humor you. But just trust and believe me, I’ve been where you are and science cannot explain it all. More questions have arisen from their answers than were there before they started trying to explain things. We are coming back to Spirituality now because of it. And I totally disagree w/ the Xetrov’s fast food opinion Spirituality is accessable to anybody who wants it because it belongs to everybody. Putting it up on an unreachable pedestal is a form of control, which is how I see most organized religions. A good quote btw “We are not human beings trying to be spritual, We are spiritual beings trying to be human”—Jaquelyn Small

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Hm… I made a mistake I think. After I’d posted the topic, I thought for a while, and realised that forum remained the same. I was the one who changed. And not, I am not dissapointed, You give me serious insight on one topic, shared dreams. So, with help of my friends, I decided to start test again. I’ve just choosen a password, have instructed them, and who knows… I did it because I recalled experience I wrote you about, when my sleep paralisys was ‘transmitted’ to my ex-girlfriend who never ever experienced one for herself.
And yes, I have heard for one instance of NDE with totaly flat EEG, when some girl was ‘deep frozen:)’ in surgical room… But there is some doubt about it. Some said that she had cortex activity, some said no, but… It was on BBS, so I believed them! Doctor, surgeon, started to believe too…
Anyway, I’m glad to be back here. Fact is, that I have visited this forum again by accident. I started looking for samurai sword on google images, because I wanted for a first time one steady, consistant, arsenal of magic and weapons (don’t get me wrong, I call it like that, in fact I think of predefined ways to modify dreams, so I don’t have to think anytime who/what should I summon, what should I do). So I decided to minimise options to have more time to enjoy dream and scenery and not thinking about ‘what technique to use to modify/create/destroy something or to transport myself’. (I had 5 types of teleport for instance).
So, I reconsidered everything and I will give my best!
The best wishes guys!
Cvele

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I’ve been where you are and science cannot explain it all.

Agreed. The problem with a science is that it is flawed, flawed by our own understanding of it all. We don’t know enough to in some areas to come to definitive conclusions, we can only base assumtions on what we do know and understand.

While science has it’s place, trusting only science is a flawed and rather illogical approach.

– Oh and teh quote is Jacquelyn Small

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Thanks Dark Matter. ^ Now properly edited. :smile:

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Hm I’m sorry Anamacara you understood me slightly wrong here :razz:. I did not mean to say this in the way you explain my words. What I mean is that I have come across legions of people that think they can perform all kinds of “tricks” which they attribute to some kind of spiritual power, like being able to do Ki blasts, to to telekinesis, to have SD at will, to be able to OBE every night, etc. Once you start to ask deeper questions about these issues, mostly you don’t get any reply. I’m not saying all of these are impossible, just that acces to such “powers” doesn’t come by merely wanting them. Spiritual development is also not at all about gaining such abilities. So with fast food I meant to say that people want to digest spirituality as fast as possible, often for their own pleasure. What they do not realise is that spiritual development and growth often comes slow (not always) and that using your own ego (wanting abilities, etc) will only impede true Self development. Of course this is all part of a process of learning and experiencing, so yes it is very much a nececary part of the world. This does however not stop me from making comments on it :smile:. So I agree with you, spirituality is accesible to anyone open to it (as a matter of fact its always there, you just need to become aware).

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Ahh… sorry, then actually we agree.