[split] religious debate from 'do DC's have rights'

I don’t need to (there’s lots of biblical proof etc already). It’s what the Church believes!

We know what is serious sin, mortal sin. If one dies in mortal
sin you go to hell. It is in the catholic catechism which apparently
you have never read. BTW hatred against others is a grave sin too (according to the same catechism and the church).

The Church knows how God will judge someone in mortal sin, that’s how I know. The catechism says: You cannot be united with God to get to Heaven if you sin gravely against him e.g. doing gay sex. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice. This state is … called Hell.

As I quoted there is repentance which you seem not to be aware of.

I am in no trouble, I’m just passing on God’s message to you.
It is no sin to quote or paraphrase the Catechism. If I am in a sin through that, then the Pope is too! Funny! :cool_laugh:

And I also have to thank you, because you’re winning me heaven by
your attitude. That’s really cool. When they invent lies about you.
Like yours about lust, adultery. Nice inventions. And you yourself
judge me at the same time… Funny way to criticise people instead of
their argument. Yes I know I am not God, but I know He lives in me, thanks.

Liar !!! Really. lets see !!! *** mmm milod reaches into his truth bag***

Clark Kent wrote in sex, kissing and yup part II

Sounds pretty lustful to me !!!

MINORS !!! What would you have done to the innocent CHILD if the dream did not fade.
These 2 only took me 5 min to find.
Shall I find and post the ones where you actually calm to have had LD SEX !!! Or can I spare you THAT embarrassment.

There is that pride again. Those flames are getting hotter. :devil:

No. I do not judge you. Nor do I hate you. I am just trying to make you understand just how hypocritical, condescending, and patronizing your are being to everyone else. Since I am not the only one who thinks so. Perhaps you should take a look at that.

Interesting. Sometimes, however, there’s two people who KNOW two things that are exact opposites of each other. In fact, people’s perceptions of God have been exact opposites of each other. This would imply to me that perceptions of God would have to

  1. Not always be right or
  2. Be too complex for humans to fully understand.

If the first case, how can you be sure that it’s really God. If the second, how can you be sure you really understand him.

Either way, if God exists, assuming you know His will is pretty much the most prideful thing I can think of.

i have made a new topic - so the discussion can continue here :smile:

and a heated topic it now is wow.

I think taht DC should have rights. IF you belive they should. they are your own DC after all.

IF on the other hand you belive that they shouldnt have rights, then do so, the situation will imply more on what your choice will be i am sure.

ahh but on gods laws, who brings them into the dream along with you, your own ideas that gods laws apply even in the dream world, or the idea for the people who do not follow a religion, that laws do not.

i know that these points have been stated, i havent jsut gotten round to this topic, just trying to get back into it, so to speak

There is also a very similar topic in “theory of Lucidity”
titled “Morals in Dreams”
It can be found here
https://community.ld4all.com/t/morals-in-dreams/7423

Should Skin Cells have rights? I mean everytime you scratch or touch something you kill thousands of them at a time and unlike Dream Characters these are real lifeforms.

Yes, skin cells should have rights. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press… :cool:

One thing I don’t understand in this discussion, is what does it mean to say you shouldn’t judge others. What exactly is it and why is it wrong?

To steal your line, Monitor,

. . .is why it is still going on! I look forward to the day when you guys quit arguing over your beliefs. We all have them and they’re all pretty different so why rehash the same old stuff over and over again? I guess we just live in a day and age where people love to argue. It isn’t enough to voice your own opinion and read over others, but there must be a constant debate over little nitpicky sentences people say. Person: Quotes another person. Then writes: Yeah, but I don’t agree with you because la di da–

I am all for constructive debate, but whenever religion and spirituality are part of the issue, things can get pretty mean pretty quickly. If there’s one thing most people are passionate about, it’s their belief system.

Pheobe (from Friends): This is madness, MADNESS, I tell you! (Well, I don’t really think it’s “madness” but it is pretty repetitive.)

A show of hands please: Who ELSE gets annoyed reading this thread?

Anybody, anybody?

*Fine. I’ll let you get back to DEBATING with each other!

:bored:

It’s kind of like this.

Christian: My religion is unquestionable truth!
Catholic: NO! My religion is unquestionable truth!
Jew: Only part of your religions are true…
Buddhist: Truth lies within, not without.
Muslim: No it doesn’t! Truth lies in my religion!
Hippy: Come on guys, let’s just smoke a bowl and get along…
Agnostic: It doesn’t matter, there is no way to know who is right and wrong… give it up already.
Christian: That attitude will get you to hell!
Catholic: I agree.
Muslim: Me too!
Jew: Yes!
Buddhist: No, we are in hell already… existence is suffering.
Hippy: Yeah man, something like that… what with all this hatred and the Man cracking down on love and happiness.
Agnostic: Yeah, earth does suck.
Christian: No it doesn’t, the Bible clearly says…
Muslim: But… the Qoran clearly says…
Jew: No… the Old Testament clearly says…
5 hours later

Hehe, EXACTLY!

Gosh, it seems like just yesterday you had “May LDs: 8” in your sig and now you have 12. Wait, that WAS yesterday! Does that mean that you had 4 LDs in one night?

Sno_insul

( the only one left with a cool head )

That is true. None of us are ever going to agree with each other.

Usually when extreme religious views are involved it is not enough to simply sate your opinion and respect others who may disagree. Some feel that they must impose those views on others. Unfortunately that has been true since the beginning of time.

Here is hopeing for a actual debate and not a screeming match. :wink:

Here, here! :content:

well i remember the last time this happened it was about religion as well, i am not surprised that this topic turned out into a religious topic as well.

I agree with taht totaly, but somehow sadly i dont see that happening.

We could all agree to disagree,

If you belive that they should have Rights then say it, and then dream it, if you dont believe it then say it, then dream where they do not.

Just like religion each and everyone of us has the chance to belive in a religion, or not. just as we all have our own opions into which we are talking about now. Should they or should they not.

The answer to that is your choice, and your choice alone

Oh yeah, I think I might have had 6 yesterday…

But I’m a bit unsure on how to count them… technically if I wake from a dream and have to re-enter (this takes some skill) then that should count as 2 instead of one?

So if I have to re-enter 5 or 6 times, is that 5 or 6 separate lds? Even though I’m just re-entering the one I’m trying to stay in?

I haven’t been that liberal with my counting, but I do tend to count interupted/re-entered LDs as 2 or 3… just because I mean… if I get mad and move then the process is ruined and I can’t go back, so it takes a bit of practice and patience and experience to keep going back into these (and it also drains me… you know… my body wants me up at 5, I tell it no and sleep till 12… hehe…)

But yes as far as I know I think I had 4 yesterday… I initially told myself during the night “i think you’ve had 6, or will have 6 when you go back to sleep then get up” but since I only really remember:
church dream, I got mad at a band that sang a descriptive song about hell and tried to make them think I was Jesus… complete with walking on water and making green energy from my hands explode (that was mega cool and sort of blew the dream apart and it slowly faded back together… and I was being “Jesus” in a sarcastic way, just to make points to them, somehow, about how to not be judgemental)
ND car dream…into LD about sex.
ermm… hmm… I’ve forgotten a lot of them already… oh well… I had 4 counting having to re-enter one once.

I think having to re-enter should definitely count, since afterall it’s technically another dream after that, since you’ve woken up.

But if it does definitely count then technically I could have 10 or more LDs a night since sometimes an LD in the morning will just NOT want to stay together and I have to go back in 3-4, maybe 6 or more times.

So… go figure.

it would help if i bothered to write my dreams down though, but most aren’t really all that abnormal or exceptional… what was quite good about the ND car dream was that my car was no bigger than a small toy and I had a devil of a time trying to figure out how I was supposed to get in it and drive it around all these normal sized cars… lol… somehow I did…

and then I’d have to get out and navigate through a metal gated post office entrance (maze like in nature) to get back on the highway… it was crazy in a great way… if I didn’t waste the lucidity with sex that place would have been great to explore. But on the plus side, the sex was GOOD! (sort of!)

Now then… wow… off topic, my oh my… well… not really because of the church dream :tongue:

I’d just like to throw “think for yourself, question authority” - Timothy Leary at everyone, so many people only believe what they believe because “it’s how I was raised” well golly gee whiz, if your daddy was a cult leader think where’d you’d be right now.

If your religion is worth beliving in, it’ll withstand questioning… I “know” if there is a GOD out there, he wants you to try and MAKE YOUR OWN BELIEFS… rather than trust in an establishment that wants to control you as much as possible.

Because it’s like… how easy would it be to set up a “church” mentality to further some sort of screwed up agenda (it happens all the time) if these people are born into it blindly following it “just becuase” then it doesn’t make any sense, it could be run by the damn anti-christ for all you know… God would want you to question the hell out of any beliefs placed upon you/you were born into, to make sure that you really believe what you do, and that you aren’t being brainwashed and led off a cliff or something.

This includes questioning the Bible too… becuase it’s been in t he hands of many a corrupt man who could have altered things here and there for whatever reasons he wants.

Which in fact, I dare say probably happened in the middle ages when the church had the only copies of the Bible and wouldn’t let normal people see it… many scholars/historians believe the church of the middle ages invented the whole concept of hell to scare people into doing what they say.

So therefore, this is why I encourage you to question your beliefs, regularly… God would understand, and I think he’d want you trusting HIM rather than a preacher or an ancient book, right? How do you know his will is in the book if we “have free will” ? Someone could have altered it…

Hence trying to grow spiritually and conginitvely by QUESTIONING YOUR BELIEFS… if there’s a God I’d think he would applaud people for doing that and try and present them with the right way.

And by questioning I don’t mean “preacher, what does this mean?” … find the answers on your own… or at least, seek help from many others, not just one perosn who has been thinking for you for your whole life.

if you don’t question your beliefs, they are not YOUR beliefs to begin with, and you don’t deserve to have them

it’s people that think questioning is dangerous that are responsible for all this control right now… QUESTIONING THE GOVERNMENT IS WRONG, LET’S LET THEM DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO AND BLINDLY WAVE OUR FLAGS, THEY CARE ABOUT THE COMMON MAN!!!

You know? And that carries into religion too… thankfully we don’t have many christians blowing things up around here (every now and then it happens) but I mean… what if you just so happened to be raised by a bunch of KKK southern fundamentalists who like to blow up abortion clinics?

Well… this is why we QUESTION AUTHORITY, and this is why in order to think for ourselves, we have to.

Until we do so we are just reflections of our envrionment, of our teachers, parents, religion, and government, we are thinking how they think we should think, and we are so naive and young that we do not realize this… therefore in order to grow as a person you have to question your beliefs.

Really the best thing to do is listen to whatever the opposite of you is (like an athiest) says, and really CONSIDER what he is saying, don’t dismiss it as nonsense… really try and see where his reasoning is coming from, why he has it, understand his questions, try and answer them without thumping a holy book at him.

If you all wanted to know why I believe what I just said and I told you “because Timothy Leary told me to” you’d be mega pissed off and would think I’m an idiot, yet it’s okay to use the Bible to end any argument someone raises? NO, it isn’t, try and reason with them on their level, try and understand what they are asking, try and do something thinking outside the box, and outside the book… you know? I also realize that since most religions are largely based upon archaic text that you ARE going to have to rely on it some, but it does no good to try and hold a religious debate with someone who is not from your religion by quoting things from a book at him.

I could write a holy book that says “I am always right” and then whenever someone disagreed with me I’d direct them to the Book of Holy Reality, verse 1, chapter 1… but that doesn’t do anything at all.

So I mean… I can see the validity of CHRISTIANS debating what different Bible verses might mean, but when you are trying to prove the existence of God to someone (which you absolutely cannot do, so I don’t see why you’d try and do so) it doesn’t do a lot of good to quote a book.

Now if you were talking to someone about forgiveness, it’d be great to take a Jesus quote there, becuase that man knew a thing or two about forgiveness, he had some good teachings… and it doesn’t necessarily limit someone to adhering to your religion.

but anyway…

You have to learn empathy, you have to learn to understand other belief structures, understand why people think the way they do and believe the way they do… you have to listen to what they say, and consider it rationally, try and think of it from a non-biased viewpoint…

You don’t just say “no that isn’t true… such and such verse says so, argument over, I win.”

You know?

Hopefully this isn’t lost on some of you, this is my third question things rant and I haven’t seemed to get any responses to it…

at least a few people should understand what I’m talking about.

It’s kind of like that story of the 3 blind men who are trying to describe an elephant… one feels a trunk and says “surely an elephant is very long” and one feels it’s feet and says “an elephant is much like a tree” and well… things like that.

But ultimately, though they can speculate , they still DO NOT KNOW WHAT AN ELEPHANT IS ACTUALLY LIKE.

Much in the same way, we can speculate about God, but none of us really know… all religions are are peoples ways of trying to put the un-understandable into easy to relate to terminlogy.

I mean afterall, they call god HE… they speak of him as some sort of entity bound to a body…

I don’t see that at all… if there were a God I think there is way more to it than that… but it doesn’t matter what I think… the point is there are thousands of religions, constantly, all of them hoping to reach the same result, but all just human attempts at understanding the not understandable.

Think of God as water and religion as variously different shaped cups.
(i wish i came up with that but I got it from someone else)

Not that any of our ideas are really exclusive to us though.

OH BOY this seems like it could turn into a flame war.

yes but not all. i used to think the same, i am actually reading the bible to understnad it better, even though i am not religious, i will not pass comment until i have read it and understand it, that is why i am fence sitting,

you had a lot of valid points there, a lot of blunt but valid points. i just hope everyone else sees that as well :bored:

Now off topic in responce to re entering dreams.

If you wake up for like 1 second and slip back in. I would not personally count it, if i were awake for 5-10 then went into another dream and it were lucid i would count that. Re entering i think has been described somewhere in the quest 4 lucidity

“Questions are the beginning of wisdom” I don’t remember who said it but, I believe it is true.

BTW- I believe I did reply to one of your “questioning” posts. I don’t remember which one though.

Who said that quote? I like it…

and yeah I just noticed it… I’ve been kind of afraid to re-enter the DC threads since I don’t have anything much else to say and what I’ve been saying is kind of controversial.

As for Timeless_Soul… I was raised a Christian, not really conservatively or anything, not until we moved to Church Town/Hicksville USA and well… then I went to church a lot and “found myself” … and EVENTUALLY (like a year ago) I finally found that I never really “found myself” … and yet doing so was not really finding myself either.

So umm… yes… well… I tried to read the Bible when I was younger, starting with the old testament, all this talks of killing people for working on the sabbath, sacrifices, circumcision (i think you should be able to sue if you were circumcised as a child… that’s just horrible… especially that we still do it) lots of people begetting each other… and um… well… nothing it said seemed to really apply to real life in the 20th century at all.

I basically think the Old Testament should just be looked at as some historical stuff, but you know… Christians should stick to Christ rather than sticking to “spare the rod, spoil the child” because I mean… if you’re going to follow some OT laws, you’d might as well follow ALL of them, but then of course you would contradict Christ’s teachings… which is why I think they should not follow the Old Testament at all…

Becuase you know some righteous Christian with too much time on her hands will go around telling people how right she is and how it’s not okay to accept homosexuality, and blah blah blah… well correct me if I’m wrong but Jesus never said a thing about gays did he? If you’re gonna condemn homosexuals maybe you should go sacrifice goats and be SUBMISSIVE IN CHURCH!!!

Man… I don’t know what I saw in her… I’m glad it’s over though… maybe she’s changed since then, she told me she did in a dream but I’m not so sure it had SD like qualities… I figure I more just wanted to hear that from her.

So anyways… my philosophy is do whatever you want unless it hurts people, and if it doesn’t, it isn’t anyone’s business but yours.

Basically the GOLDEN RULE… people should follow it:

this means,

gay marriages for all, marriage is already a joke in the US, ask any celebrity.

legalize it :tulip: … legalize it all really, give kids proper education about responsibility, used the saved billions on endless drug wars to establish free rehab centers… government regulate things to prevent lacings and keep dosages standardized, allow small growth for personal use of ANYTHING (who trusts the government to sell them drugs?) etc… most other countries don’t have much drug problems at all, rather more or less the same rates we do, including places where harder drugs are legal, and the hardest aren’t exactly things to be thrown in jail for… so… ( www.drugwarfacts.com ) kids in places with legal pot tend to not think pot is “cool” either.

VIOLENCE, PROFANITY, AND SEX ON TV… let parents censor their kids viewing material, they have lockout options for a reason

Did you guys know (this has been claimed by a popular US magazine, too, I’m not just spouting off opinion) that America is THE most backwards western democracy (or nation?) in the world? Why? CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS… I mean… you’d think we’d get over petty things that aren’t your business when we stopped being puritans and made dancing legalized… but nope… a bunch of old ladies think it’s their business to legislate their crazy morals that no one agrees with… I know some christians that want christianity to be the only allowed religion in the US…

It ultimately doesn’t really matter what you believe, but it isn’t your business trying to regulate what other people do unless it HURTS YOU. And if it something deemed a threat to society (violence, SEX, drugs) it should be dealt with SANELY… such as telling kids how to use condoms, telling them the prevalence of STDs encouraging responsibility, but understanding this is not some fairy tale world… instead of censoring the hell out of everything, give parents easy tools to decide what their kids can and can’t listen to and see… if someone is addicted to something, TREAT HIM, don’t throw him in jail with murderers and rapists and thieves… if he isn’t addicted, leave him the hell alone.

So anyways…

I think the problem is religion teaches you to be submissive to authority (religious authority/God) and therefore they develop authoritatiran mindsets where they can’t question the government, and they feel like it is THEIR BUSINESS what we do in our own homes, etc…

It largely depends on how you are raised… most christians are pretty tolerant and sensible and whatnot… so are most jews, buddhists, muslims, etc…

afterthought: What I find odd, is that NYPD Blue used the word bullsh!t (yes i’m censoring myself…) on various occasions, they never received one complaint… yet still, they are getting all this censorship crackdown nonsense on them, for something NO ONE CARES ABOUT… I mean … ugh… I don’t know, I read an article about it the other day and about how they’ll cancel the show rather than censor the daylights out of it.

It is driving me crazy. I still can’t remember who said it. It was some philosopher. I’ll remember eventually.

I agree with that. Many of our laws were based on Christian morality which most Americans don’t agree with but, no politician will change any thing. Good luck getting elected without the bible belt (thanks to our brilliant electoral system). BTW- we are a republic not a democracy.

There are things that are illegal here but are legal in most other democratic nations.

Our problem is that in most cases the average person is not that involved in politics. It’s big business and special interest groups. Especially religious groups.

I think things will change as more yong people start to get into politics.

Well yeah, a democratic republic or something akin to it. You wouldn’t know that by how many time Bush uses the word “democracy” in his speeches though.

young people genuinely don’t care. People said that in the past, like “man, pot will be legalized soon once more people start voting” but nope… lord knows we’ve tried, maybe in another 10 years?

But… the thing of it is, and this is the way the government wants it… NO ONE CARES.

Only 60% or so percent of americans according to some CNN poll think this election is important. My God this is the most important thing to happen to us in the past few generations, we have Adolf W. Bush wanting to throw American citizens in concentration camps, making the whole world hate us, getting us involved in another Vietnam… looking the other way for months when torture is reported then when for some reason (distracting us from the US pullou from Fallujah?) the media FINALLY publishes pictures/stories (you CAN find them prior to this… there have been tons of pictures of people being forced to kneel, do crucifixes, reports of them being shot with rubber bullets for fun, etc, they’ve been around forever) and NOW Bush cares… now Bush is outraged.

It’s so conveninat for him to always blame everyone else for his ignorances… I mean on the one hand he definitely seems to be an idiot so you can kind of believe he didn’t know, but on the other hand I think he’s pretty damn smart.

Why does the media suddenly give a damn? This is stuff anyway halfway decent American should already know has been going on forever.

But we don’t, because we dont’ care.

JFK said something akin to “the day you stop questioning your government is the day freedom dies”

I mean I know I like to blame the media a lot but they disconnect us form everything, “6 dead today” SO WHAT… you’re just spouting off numbers, maybe tell us what happened? Give us their NAMES? Tell us of deaths on the other side (civillians)? SHOW US PICTURES? War is easy to stomach when all you see on tv is an army guy shooting his machine gun at a wall… we have no idea just how horrible things really are over there.

I don’t know exactly why most 18-24 year olds are so apathetic, but I am damn sure the government likes it that way, if all the hippies and potheads started voting they could cause drastic change… I guess it’s kind of effective as labeling a huge chunk of teenagers as “losers” and thereby making it “cool” for the to “rebel” against society by not voting… I have no idea though.

I just know that no one cares that their constitutional freedoms are gone… “so what” or “if you don’t like it, move out”… yeah… I should move out for trying to do my damned American duty of trying to keep this government in line.

Ughhh… why aren’t we up in the streets rallying against censorship? No one in their right mind likes it, those who do are severely outnumbered… what happened to all the protests and movements of the 60s? Sure when protestors are jailed and put on no fly lists it’s a bit discouraging but what can they do if all of us start protesting? I guess that’s what all the development into non-lethal chemical weapons and fancy laser beams is for…

Oh well. It’s easier to not care about anything than to see the world for what it really is.

As for the religious side of things I hope my post didnt’ come off as being too angry or condescending, or anything like that.

The basic point of it is that unless you parents raised you in a free thinking environment, the religion you have is not your own, and you should question it.

If you question it for a long time, and really try to see things from other points of view, and you still like it, that’s great. But if you find other answers, that’s great too… at least you’re trying.

It’s those that refuse to, and those who think they are right and everyone else is wrong, that make this world a bad place to live in right now.