I think that on the selfish issue it is more selfish to ignore someone’s pain than to commit suicide. Should someone go through the rest of their life in pain so that someone doesn’t go though a different pain-pain that would most likely be less than the pain that would drive someone to suicide?
I think it is your choice and no one should have the power to stop you controlling your own life.
I’m not sure what we’re debating here. My personal experience of suicide victims are from the general stereotype of these people. It’s not of people in “pain” with diagnosed illness or old age, and it’s not some genocidal suicide bomber. It’s generally healthy people that have given up on life.
I’m not judging these people as selfish. Death from this particular type of suicide is a selfish action though. I’ve witnessed it several times and discussed it for many hours before. Selfless people can commit very selfish acts on occasion too!
My assumption is that we were discussing healthy normal family or loved ones killing themselves because of depression, loss of self worth, and/or unhappiness. I’m only voicing my perspective from that direction.
I’m not blaming these victims or their familes. I tried to make clear that I think the consciousness of these individuals are not 100%. These victims have often forgotten how close family really feel about them, or have delusional feelings that people don’t care about them.
The result of suicide can have consequences where it has left survivors with a debt. It has robbed people of their life, peace and happiness. It’s left people hungry and with financial problems. Horrors and messes must be discovered and cleaned. Blame and guilt is juggled around by the survivors. The list goes on.
Even for mercy killing the person in pain is only thinking of a way for them to escape pain. Why is it bad to call that selfish? Call it what it is please. It’s an act of selfishness. The only focus is to remove their pain. The pain of uncertainity for the survivors is forgotten and disreguared. It’s not a suprise for a person in pain to act selfishly to end it. I’m not judging the vicitim. I’m judging the general act of suicide as selfish because it often provides the victim immediate escape from crisis while surrounding survivors are left with the debt and often increased crisis situations.
The act of suicide very rarely benefits another person. The suicide is done with the intention of escape for only themself. The survivors are left with a disturbance and debt of many kinds.
Suicide multiplies pain and spreads it to more than 1 person and doesn’t end pain. Even so, the victim is choosing to escape their pain while increasing the agony of others.
Suicide to escape pain is a choice for only oneself. It’s just an honest to good definition of such a decision. It’s not to belittle the victims of suicide.
Also remember, those people who commit suicide might not be aware of their actions and that those actions that they were doing might be selfish. Mind is a powerful thing that actually can really make you into thinking something completely different than the real point of view.
For instance, this suicidal victim might think that his/her life isn’t worth living at all. That’s all he/she is willing to think of. He/she might doesn’t think about his/her family at all, or how that action might affect everyone. He/she is focused on ONE thing… to get rid of the burdens that he/she has been dragging for so long. Sometimes this victim might think that it’s a temp. solution to everything and that he/she will come back alive later to fix his/her relationship with family and friends… or rather, he/she might be so depressed that he/she wants to sever the connection to all relationships he/she has.
Like I said, mind can really twist things so in a way, to them it might not be a selfish act, but to other people who knows him/her might think it’s very selfish thing to do. Believe me, I have been there before and I was absolutely almost 100% sure that my life wasn’t worth to live for, but I’m so glad that I didn’t do it because now I’m getting more than I ask for. 
So that’s why I don’t dare to judge anyone for doing this. If it happens, it happens. 
Suicide can be bad or good, depends on the reasons for it and the way it is done. If it is just a desperate spur of the moment kind of thing, then I think it’s a waste. If it is carefully planned and carried out in a more artistic thought out way and the person has had time to think over their decision then I see nothing wrong with people doing what they want with their life, even ending it. Shooting ones self or hanging ones self I think is just a way to get rid of yourself. Slitting your wrist is done all the time. Now, slitting your throat with broken glass from a bottle of wine you shared with your ex-gf when you were first together, that is thought out, and has meaning. You might think I’m nuts, but that just proves you conform to others and accept death as a bad thing. I don’t see how it’s so bad, if religion is true then you should look forward to it, you go to a better place don’t you? I don’t even believe in that and I wouldn’t have any regrets if I left today.
What about those people who do not have friends/family who care about them anymore?? There really are people out there which really have no one, is it really such a selfish act to take your own life, when you really have nothing to live for? Suicide is something that is something that is FAR from easy to do, most of this people have truly lost all their hope and are in great pain…
I really cannot see how you be people can call them selfish, when you have never been in this situation yourself, you cannot imagine the pain they might feel. I know of many people who commited suicide, including 2 people that was in same class as me for years… Just a few weeks ago, there was nearly a 3th case, that person went in my class aswell… 
I definitely understand this people, as i have been pretty low myself… I have experienced great pain in my life, but i can honestly not even imagine the pain these people must have feelt… Every person has their limits, sometimes things can push you over the edge, to the point where you commit such a act. Imagine standing on the edge of a bridge… i doubt it is an easy decision…
Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouth… Life is unfair.
People i do think is selfish, is those people who drag others into their death aswell, like the neighbour of someone i know… This family had just built their new dreamhome, but this person got fired from where he work, so they got into big financial problems… One day he ended up shooting his wife, and then shot himself afterwards… a truly selfish act…
Please let me be clear that I am not insulting these victims. I’m not claiming to understand their circumstances. I can’t try to comprehend the pain that drove them to commit such an act. Everyone has battled depression and thoughts of suicide. That is life and part of the human experience. The people that have commited suicide are not here to explain the pain that drove them to complete the act successfully. Only people that were rescued from themselves can claim to understand that deep pain.
The word “Selfish” might sound condensending or insulting, but it’s just an adjective. When someone has decided to end their own life it’s most commonly for their own benefit. That is the exact definition of selfishness. Let’s try not to pretty up the picture of suicide. It’s an ugly situation in all cases. It’s never “good” because someone killed themselves to escape pain.
These victims death are at their own hands. They are to blame for the moment their life ended. Anytime a human is involved with deciding the moment of death it is going to be questioned and debated. The act of suicide causes conflict of many sorts for the survivors. It only ends 1 person’s conflict and pain.
Suicide is never good. If a person is in such deep pain that suicide is the only escape, then that is a very very sad situation. Nothing is good about it. Not only are they in pain, but they feel they must die to escape it. We can’t imagine this person lives in a world all by themselves. In a world of 6 billion people they have an impact on someone else living. Their passing was a decision that has a negative impact on others. Their decision provided them with a means of escape.
Please don’t think of the word “selfish” as a negative description of these people. I’m not calling the people selfish. I’m calling the decision and the act of suicide as selfish. It’s a sad death that leaves survivors with uncertainty. It’s death by decision and will always create conflict.
I’m not sure there’s any such thing as a healthy person who attempts suicide.
I disagree. Depression is as much an illness as any physical illness is. Not everyone experiences it and there are many different levels. To me a suicide victim is very similar to a person suffering from a physical condition. There’s far more to depression than just sadness. In some cases it can be just as painful for a suicidal person as it is for those suffering from something physical, leading to euthanasia.
I completely agree with everything Atheist has said.
I agree with Atheist also. To each his own. I’m only speaking my personal opinion of how suicide has affected me directly. I’m not asking people to agree with me, but just to understand what I say. I’m telling a personal story of people that I knew. No person here can understand those particular suicide situations that I have experienced. People involved agree it was a desperate act that resulted in selfish consequences. We loved these people and are not calling them selfish. The people involved with that person experiences a rejection and debt. The people live on with a hole. Stop telling me that I cannot recognize the results of selfish behavior. It’s nothing to disagree with. I’m very aware suicide is done for countless reasons. I’m only telling my personal story of the effects I’ve lived through. It’s just something to say “ok, really” to, not really something to say “I disagree, your interpretation of your life’s experiences are wrong.” 
Suicide is hardly done to BE selfish. Suicide has other motivations and intentions.
Tell me you disagree when you share a real life situation where suicide wasn’t selfish.
Sure it happens, but not nearly as often.
I think a problem is formed out of the word selfish. It has negative connotations and some of us don’t think those connotations apply. For example, a person gives money to charity because they know they would feel guilt if they didn’t. You could call this act selfish because the person is giving with their own interests at heart. But, most of us wouldn’t call this selfish because it sort of indirectly benefits others in the process. In fact, the great majority of conscious acts are selfish.
If there was another word with the same meaning as selfish without the negative connotations, it should probably be used for this topic.
But, of course there would be cases of suicide stemming from truly selfish thoughts and also from selfless thoughts.
I wouldn’t say that everyone that commits suicide is not healthy/sane but the majority probably is.
On the topic, if i was contemplating suicide (which i am not) i would weigh it up like this: i can bare this life at the moment and there are 3 possibilities when i die- it is better than life, worse than life or the same as life. So there is about 50% chance that it would be worse than life. For that case i would want to live as long as possible, building up good memories to take to death (if that is possible) as long as i could bare life. If not then there is 50% chance that death is better.
Obviously, if you have experienced different levels of happiness you would be able to judge what level you currently are and the lower you are on that scale the more tempting death would be.
By the way, with that person who killed his wife then himself- he might have thought that she was going through as much pain as himself and so by killing her, he would be doing the same for her as he did for himself. Maybe she couldn’t physically do it so he did it for her. I don’t condone this, i am just saying that it might not be as selfish as you think.
Thanks for explaining that Alex. The word selfish can be as complicated as the word “Freewill” 
It’s often portrayed that suicide victims think “the world would be better off without me” or “I’m a burden to society/family” or “I’m a loser unworthy of life”
These victims are deluded into thinking the world would benefit in their absence. They may view suicide as a blessing to those around them. I think this may be the emotion that helps them decide to follow through. Their deluded reasoning is actually selfless. The consequences are actually quite opposite however.
I disagree DA. It’s only partly the suicidals fault. Had there been more support for people who feel suicidal then prehaps they wouldn’t so readly commit suicide. For example, there are only 1 or two organisations in the UK local to schools which help suicidal people. Sorry if I repeat someone else or have missed a point. I have only read the first three quators of page1.
I agree. Here in USA, we officially call it part of actual disease/illness. It is something we consider very serious especially manic depression. We have a lot of counselors, support groups, hotlines, etc. for those type of people. Mental illness sometimes cannot be seen by this person, but only by others. When I was very depressed, I didn’t think I was clinically depressed. I just thought I was unforunate enough to be in that hole. I always denied it, but then when I realized that I was really DEEP in that hole. It scared me. I thought I was too far to be able to get help. 
It was pretty bad, but because that I was able to recognize my actions. I was able to improve steadily (not easy… trust me) and then I got out of it really quickly before I went to High School. I hate to say that, but I have a lot of experience about suicides both from myself and my friends. Sad, but true.
DreamAddict, I’m not saying that it’s absolutely not selfish or is absolutely selfish. It’s between that, but that person… most of the time… wouldn’t be aware of his/her action. Your mind is the base thing for you to see, think, feel, and taste in. If there was a chemical imbalances in your brain or something, you don’t know it. You lose movitation to do something. You lose the need to keep the relationship with people. You lose that “thrill” to keep alive. Eventually, you think committing suicide is the best solution because you felt no movitation to keep going. Sometimes, you think that maybe they are better off without you because you might think you are actually pulling them down in the hole with you and you didnt want that to happen. You know what I’m trying to say?
As much as I want to deny that I had pretty a lot of experiences in committing suicide(s), I’m just hoping that maybe by sharing what I have experienced from that and learned from that here will help other people to reconsider what they are doing. It is perfectly understandable if this person felt that it’s ABSOLUTELY needed to be done… you can’t really fix his/her mind… it’s really messed up and will take a while to fix it, but at the same time, like Jeff mentioned… it’s sad if someone commits a suicide.
Other point to remember, when you’re depressed… it’s already difficult to try living one day by one day. It’s also difficult to commit suicide. It’s easy to become really frustrated. Sometimes it causes the loops/build ups of emotions leading to actual suicide. You know what I’m saying?
Yes, I understand. Prehaps depression is an illness. I don’t feel that it’s the suicdal’s fault, by what you describe DM7. More like your brain has got so far into depression it changes the way you see reality.
I’ve never understood people who slit there rists at school. Why slit your rists, surely it’s much easier to posion yourself. I knew this girl who slit her rists several times. There’s also a boy who slits his rists. H seems vague at times, and replies unexpectadly to your questions.
Thoughts for those considering suicide:
- death will come to release you even if you don’t kill yourself
- every second you are alive you travel 18.5 miles through space (the speed the earth orbits the sun)
- we are all living between two ice ages
- after most jumpers jump, nail marks are found scraping down the surface jumped from
- are you ready for the possibility of existing after bodily death?
- depression can be a cultural thing: set your own standards
- in a study, Tibetan monks were found to have signifigantly higher seratonin levels than usual
- every night you have the opportunity to depart on a free holiday to Never-Never land (lucid dreaming)
Lebowsk1, those words do not help anyone who is depressed for real, and might actually make it worse for the person, but I know you may just be trying to help.
I thought I would just toss this in…
Studies have shown that Japan has the highest suicide rate of any country in the world.
However, Japanese living in America have the lowest suicide rate of any ethnic group in the country.
Weird, huh? 
I wouldnt say I’ve come particularly close to suicide, but those kinds of thoughts help me when I’m in a bad place mentally.
The one about two ice ages is actually from Timothy ‘Speed’ Levitch, and he goes as far as to say it has saved his life on occasion.
Anyway would you say people who believe in an after-life ever commit suicide? Suicide would seem to be an attempt to obliterate yourself, but if you believe in an afterlife then you know that just isnt possible…
PS How could lucid dreaming possibly not help someone depressed? I think it could be a really powerful aid in that sense.
When you’re in the last phase before doing the act, you don’t think anymore about those considerations Lebowsk1 (referring to your previous post) Your vision on the world has increasingly narrowed until the only thing you can think about is committing suicide, preferably as fast as possible. All the rest doesn’t care anymore. This ain’t selfish or anything but only the result of a blocking mechanism inside your (sub)consciousness due to the idea of an upcoming death. The mind is trying to adapt itself to the idea as best as possible. Therefore other things need to be shut out, including the motivation of seeking help. The main thing one can do to prevent suicide is to notice the problem in time and talk about it. Talking can do véry much because this is the key to resolve the mental blockages and which lets you see other solutions to your problems.
Personally I can say yes.
Definitely!! LDing was the one thing which helped me véry much during my dark period two years ago.
Mystic yeah you are right. I once spent some time on a suicide messageboard after viewing a couple of those real-death video clips (call it morbid if you will) and the people there were just completly dead-set on suicide (excuse the pun…)
They seemed most concerned with the details of just how to do it without getting caught and without screwing it up. I was like “wait whoa back up, have you heard of lucid dreaming?” but all I got was a lot of hostility.
I guess sometimes people just get pushed beyond the point of no return, mentally.