did i hear an echo? 
I was asking the same thing, but in conclusion, i don’t know what to think 
This subject can be very depressing 
I’m a guy of 31 years old, from continental Europe. Last year I developed an autoimmune disease they still couldn’t identify. It affects different parts of my body like my bladder, my saliva glands (imagine a month deprived of saliva) and most importantly my eyes. People told me I take my disease very good despite all my disabilities. Now the main reason I keep joyful is I planned a way out when it gets too much. And too much means mainly developing a bad sight that cant be corrected anymore (I already have a minor incorrectable sight loss now). The reason is I work in the arts and literature, and also privately it’s the only thing I do, it’s the only thing I’m interested in and good at. I never had a busy social life or lovers nor was I ever interested in that. I only got my passion, a passion I need my eyes for.
I really ‘planned’ it. I know what method, I skilled myself on how to do it and I even now already the place where I would do it.
Thoughts of depression never occurred to me, not during my illness and not even during my ‘skilling exercises’.
Nor did I keep this a secret to my friends or even to my parents. I want to be honest and keep them into my life for as long I’m here.
Extending the abilities of what a person can bare is something I have very ambiguous feelings about. On the one hand it’s wonderful but on the other hand I’m really revolted by the extend of suffering people take up on themselves.
Being in hospitals a lot lately I saw a lot of unbearable suffering from other people who were worse of then me. One guy lying in a bed next to me, seemed to be suffocating despite his oxygen tank. He made horrible sounds of deep suffering. And that made me think a lot.
Some people are prepared to take any kind of suffering, just to stay a life. They are ready to accept the most poor life quality, just to be there. And I can have admiration for it and resentment at the same time. But staying a life for the sake of staying a life is certainly not my personal life choice.
Terms of courage or cowardness don’t apply here anymore. Who’s the most courage or coward? The one who has the courage to stay or the one who has the courage to step out?
In pre-christian times (among Romans and Greeks) suicide was a honourable way out of an impossible situation. There also wasn’t such a taboo attached to it nor was it considered a sin or a stupidity. Despite that, suicide rates were, as far as we know, not much higher then in our world. Suicide as a fact is still the same but not our ideas about it. Japanese society has traditionally a big fascination with suicide as a honourable way out. They don’t make as much negative associations with it as countries with a Christian tradition. Despite that suicide rates in Japan are comparable with the west.
That being said, doing my little research on suicide I was very surprised that only a small minority commits suicide out of health reasons (of people who commit suicide out of health reasons, schizophrenics are the biggest group by far; they loose total control of their own minds, thoughts and emotions but unlike demented people for example, they are very aware of it). Stuff like bankruptcies, divorces and other ‘social failures’ like being unemployed play a much bigger role. This leaves a lot to think about the harshness of our society, doesnt it?
As to me personally, my carefully planned escape route makes it possible for me not to worry about getting blind or even worse things happening to me because of my disease. Cause I’m not worried about my future I can enjoy my present fully.
Couldnt put it better.
Just wanted to make a side note how hypocritical the world is about it- its allowed to be killing yourself slowly- by smoking,eating fat,whatever.But once someone decides to do it quick using a gun or a syringe it stirs the minds and whats most incredibile- it is not allowed in many countries- choosing to end your life because it became unbearable misery or pain is illegal.Heh- who give who the right to even open the mouth on this subject.Its someones life to do with it whatever one chooses about it.
I wont judge anyone who chooses self distruction, because I have been down that road myself. Ive never attempted suicide, but I have been in that state of mind where I just wanted to die, because of my depression. I had a utility knife, and I wrote a suicide note, and put it in a shoe box, and put it in my closet. I knew that if I ever decided to choose death the option would allways be there, and it gave me peace of mind. Ive never used it, and I dont think I ever will. It sounds crazy, but when I start feeling down, I just think about the shoe box, and I know that life is just temporary, and I have the choice.
Suicide is for the weak.
you have to be really pathetic to just give up and kill yourself. If you really think that it cant get better at all, and you lose your drive, then you need to die. your pathetic very pathetic.
but hey that is just me
with respect shinta. you are young and don’t realise what illnesses etc some people have to endure.
I can see that knowing there is a way out if things get too bad, can help people to carry on
I think that was a bit cruel said… You cannot possible imagine how these people feel and why they do it, as i doubt you are either seriousely ill or been in such a depressed state yourself.
If my dad/mom for example was terminally ill and suffered alot, then i actually would be happy for him if he choosed the suicide way. I would probably also even try to find a way to help them, him/her if they were to sick to do it themself. The sad thing is that this is considered murder in many countries, even thought the person in question expressed the will to die.
I think it is wrong to put a person on life support against his/her will.
Suicide, I think, scares me. I’ve been in a place where I frequently thought about it, and that’s a really dark place.
When someone is really ill, unable to really live other than just for the sake of being alive… and wishes to die, or take their own life, then I would rather consider that euthanasia than suicide. Although technically euthanasia would directly involve another party, I think, to ‘do it’ - like a doctor.
But how is deep mental suffering different from physical illness, if it robs you just as much of the ability to really live your life? I’m not sure.
What I know is, I’ve been through tough times too, and didn’t come out unscathed. A lot of it still hurts. But if I’d end it, then I would never find out what it was all for, or what more would come, and the struggles I’ve had would become meaningless. Maybe my life will never get any easier. Or maybe something amazing is just around the corner! I can’t predict the future, so in order to find out, I have to keep going. I think that is what hope is like for me. That is just personal though… I certainly know what depression is like, but I’ve always had that hope inside, something basic, a will to survive and live.
That, and… due to my personal belief system, which has a lot to do with reincarnation, I believe that things in this life will carry over into the next for the karma to balance out. It doesn’t really match with the ‘standard’ karma/reincarnation theory, but it’s just how I feel personally. Like there is something my soul has to work out in this lifetime, something it has to learn. I’ve always felt there was something beyond normal consciousness, something I want to understand or learn. Every time something bad happens, it hurts, but I also learn more. Committing suicide would end me, but not my soul’s journey, and troubles would just continue into the next life until the lesson is learned, or a higher level of consciousness attained.
That belief feels more right to me than the idea of heaven and hell. I don’t really believe in heaven or hell. It just doesn’t make much sense to me.
Life has been given to you. It’s yours to live, to take, or to let go. I for one am not going anywhere 'till I know more about why I’m here in the first place. I don’t really think there’s some higher purpose outside of myself; but there may be a kind of personal destiny. And if it is, I want to find out. ^^
Shinta wrote it is showing ones weakness.You said it the way like weakness was something to be ashamed of,a con on someones character.Well ,its not.Its often misunderstood sensibility.
We wouldnt have the world we have now if sensitivity was a value and weakness was a sign that help is needed.Instead we live in a myth that we must be strong and fight to survive.This is sad and im not suprised if someones wants just quit it.
The front of my mind is always clouded by negative thoughts but that ‘anything could happen’ type of hope is usually somewhere underneath.
I don’t see weakness or sensitivity as bad. Everyone has different amounts and the physical illnesses or depressions people suffer also vary. Some people feel more pain than others. The way you feel isn’t something you can choose.
Suicide thoughts narrow your mind, keeping you in a vicious circle where thoughts about things getting better are long gone, even empathic feelings about your family and friends who will probably be devastated for many years if you should do it. If you’re on the brink of committing suicide, you can’t control your thoughts anymore but your thoughts control you… and even if there are countless other solutions to your problem, you can’t simply see it that way like normal people would. That might be hard to understand to some, but let me assure you it’s the truth. You don’t commit suicide, but your out-of-control thoughts will make you do it, unless you somehow find a way to struggle towards another perspective, to criticize those out-of-control thoughts and to fight against them, eventually accepting them by integrating them in new paths you may have found.
It’s not weak… it’s an inevitable inability to see other solutions because your mind won’t allow it anymore. You can’t see it anymore. It’s as simple as that.
That would not be true for a terminally ill person or similar… But i guess it could be true in some cases…
I was only referring to healthy people with psychological problems. You’re right, the situation of terminally ill people can be quite different.
It is true that mental disorders heavily distort your perspective of the world and yourself. It is very, very hard to see a different way through the web of negativity, and you don’t think like a normal, sane person anymore. I agree with you, and wanted to emphasize that point. 
Depression is a mental illness. Just as someone who broke their leg is unable to walk, someone with a severe depression is unable to see the way out. Understanding depression this way has helped me coped with mine a few years ago. I realised that there was nothing integrally wrong with me as a person: that I was simply ill, and that this illness could be treated; or that at the very least, I could learn how to cope with my negative feelings.
I kind of disagree with you on the last line I quoted, though, but maybe I misunderstood what you are trying to say. A person’s thoughts and emotions partially defines who they are, and how they act on them, is the other part. That’s exactly what makes depression hard to deal with, because it becomes a part of who you are. Your negative thoughts become you, and create only more negativity, going into a downward spiral. And at the point where somebody can think of suicide as their only solution, things are definitely out of control.
In a depression, things are NOT as bad as you perceive them to be. Unless there is really an outside cause for feeling miserable, such as traumatic experiences in life: losing your job, losing someone you love, being mentally and/or physically abused, suffering from a physical disease as well. In that case, there is still a way out, some hope out there - but it is even harder to overcome because the negativity does not just originate from the inside. A lot of people will become depressed through outside causes, first, and then when those causes are long in the past, the residual negative thoughts are still there, pulling you down.
Suicide is not weak or pathetic. It is seeing the only way out, when your mind is unable to see any other path or solution, even if it is there. All I can do is encourage people with suicidal thoughts to not give up hope, and to seek professional help. Things cán be worked out and you are not alone. For me, therapy and antidepressants have worked, but there is still a lot I have to deal with in my head. Nevertheless, I know the life road is out there, and I also know that I don’t want to walk down the path of suicide. If you are contemplating suicide, ask yourself: If there is another way out, even if I can’t see it right now, would I still want to end my life? The idea being that you believe in something existing, even if you can’t see or feel it right now. Having faith may give you more faith. People do the same with religion.
Has anyone read the first volume of the Sandman? “I am hope.”
The idea that these negative emotions might become a part of who you is a misleading one I think. Imo the negativity doesn’t become you but is projected onto your being to create some kind of false identity, just like all the other identities we’re constantly creating for various situations. Only, this identity takes you to death. But inherently, I don’t think those identity represent really you… they’re more like a temporary shell you picked to hide yourself from confrontation. A problem arises when you identify that shell as your home, your being, which then enables the shell to take control of your actions and thoughts. At least, imo.
I can only speak from my own experience, but if you’re near the edge, it really doesn’t matter anymore… everything is long gone. You may well believe there are some solutions, but you’re too tired to fight for them, too focused on what’s left to do, to darkened to stay focused on the tiny specks of light near the horizon. Without generalizing, I think that question becomes utterly pointless in the end.
Hmmm… that is a different point of view, and in fact I find I agree. ^^ However, the difficulty lies in what you define as “you”; whether there really is something that is “the real you”. The idea that we create different identities for different situations appeals to me, it’s something I recognise. But what sets these identities apart from who we are? Who are we, really, and how can we find out? This results in some confusion though - questions like: is depressed who I am, or something I have? Is it something I have become and can grow out of, or is it something outside of my real self that I can discard? If so, what is my real self, if depression is not a part of it?
Depression is a pretty complex thing, and every view or solution raises new questions. :\ I can place question marks next to my own views, as well. ^^
Luckily, I guess, I have never been that close to the edge… certainly near it, but those specks of hope did keep me going. When talking to friends who are struggling with depression and recurring thoughts of suicide, I try to transfer this feeling of hope, but it is really difficult. Trying to make people see something they probably can’t see, and if they can, may no longer have the strength to reach for. How do you help someone out who is that close to the edge? Is it possible, and should you? Some people might say “It is their life, let them decide” and others may say “Life is precious and I have to save theirs, and maybe they will get a little hope back eventually”.
It’s quite a conflict - when someone is suicidal, I would want to help them whilst at the same time knowing that despite all support and aid I could give them, they are the only ones who can ‘save’ their life, by having the hope and will to live. And knowing that they may believe the only way to really save it is to end it. In my previous post, I tried to convey that feeling of hope - but I do realise that someone may no longer be able to receive that, already set on their last way out. That fact saddens me.
I think the answer to the question of “who am I?” isn’t a single one, but depends on the context of your life at that moment. In the end, I think our True Self can only be found and discovered by travelling along the journey that is called “Life”. By following every pathway towards the dark or light, towards happiness or sadness, towards life or death, we’ll ultimately reach the point where we’ll know our True Self because we’ve experienced all our other perspectives of selves, false selves which in fact were created by us and for us to survive in an external world of alien influences and conditioning patterns. The “I” of this moment becomes another “I”, another shell, the next moment, and this continues until all shells are used and ultimately transcended. Only then I think we don’t need them anymore and we’ll realize our True Selves.
Very true…
If you help them, the question is: do you help them because of them, do you do it for the relatives and friends to save them for the following mental breakdown, or do you do it for yourself because you don’t want to witness the consequences or bear the thought that you could have prevented it? It’s really a difficult one, and I think the best answer is always unique for each case. There’s no standard by which to determine your answer. It depends on so many factors, from personal, social, psychological to cultural and religious factors even.
In my case for instance, someone once made the decision to help me. After I figured out, I cursed her for two months, wished her dead. Nowadays I can’t express the awe and respect I have for her because she didn’t give up on me, even when I’d put her in an almost impossible position. But she could never have known this beforehand. Perhaps I simply disappeared back into that abyss after the helped me, and ended up in some kind of heavy mental institution for the rest of my life. She might have hated her for the rest of her life. Luckily that didn’t happen. But you never know it beforehand, and that’s what always makes it so incredibly difficult…
The only real thing you can do is to be there for them, accept them as they are, and deeply fight for them on every level possible. Let them genuinely feel your compassion, your empathy so they hopefully understand it’s not a veiled egoistic compassion, but true love and a true hope to be able to help them. How they might actually perceive it, is beyond your reach. But this is the only thing you can really do. If they really want to kill themselves, they’ll do it anyway, somewhere, somehow, and eventually you’ll have to accept it… for them.
I think a lot of people view the concept of “suicidal thoughts” far too simply. What I mean is this…
A lot of people (when they say things like “suicide is the easy way out”, etc.) seam to think that it works like this:
Suicidal Person = Person Unwilling To Deal With Life’s Problems
Non-suicidal Person = Person Who Deals With Life’s Problems.
The truth is, it simply doesn’t work like this! A suicidal person’s problems are not with the outside world, they are with THEIR OWN BRAIN NOT FUNCTIONING PROPERELY! When you are in that state, where your brain simply doesn’t even function like it should do, where just existing is pure mental and emotional agony, all concepts of “easy way out” and “dealing with life’s problems” get dismantled, torn apart, thrown around the room, and then glued back together again in a way that doesn’t even make sense anymore.
Suicidal depression is not about being a Normal Person with Bad Problems, it’s about having a Brain that Can’t Even Cope With Normal Life. It’s nothing to do with problems that have logical solutions. That’s why peoples view that “suicide is easy” is misinformed, because they seam to assume it’s simply about having problems that you’re unwilling to face up to.
I myself used to be suicidally depressed (amongst other things), until I bought a book called Optimum Nutrition for the Mind, and began to realise that a lot of what I was feeling and thinking could be down to what I was eating. I then went to a nutritionist, and she discovered that I had Food Intollerances, a Blood Sugar Imbalance, and a High Histamine Level. All are now under complete control due to Nutritional Therapy, and the change has been TRULY REMARKABLE!
I now believe that a large percentage of people in the world with mental problems could be cured (or significantly helped) by nutritional means. For example, it is believed that 20% of Schizophrenics have a High Histamine Level as the primary cause of their illness, and nearly 50% have Low Histamine as the main cause. This can be easily cured by nutritional supplements and dietary changes - for example, I have to take extra Calcium and Methionine supplements, which bring down the body’s histamine level naturally, whereas a Low Histamine person would probably have extra Folic Acid and B12, which naturally increase the body’s level of Histamine.
Whilst nothing in life is ever totally clear-cut or simple, it is my belief that the number one cause of my problems before were simply due to my brain not functioning properely due to these imbalances and intolerances, all of which are now completely under control. Obviously, any real life problems that happened at the same time would have compounded any problems I was having, I now deal with real life problems MUCH easier than I ever would have done before.
Recent high-profile examples or this nutrition-brain connection:
SuperSize Me - notice how depressed he said he got whilst he was feeding himself nothing but processed rubbish?
Jamie’s School Dinners - Where chef Jamie Oliver attempted to radically change school dinners for the better, including the example of a boy with bad behaviour problems who’s behaviour dramatically improved as soon as he stopped drinking fizzy sugary drinks.
Plus a documentary featuring Patrick Holford (the author of Optimum Nutrition for the Mind), where they took a bunch of teenagers who were socially withdrawn, depressed and disruptive, tested them for any food intollerances and imbalances, and then put them on special super healthy diets which addressed these problems. The results? It COMPLETELY changed them! Changed their personalities, their behaviour, social interaction, everything, FOR THE BETTER!
So whenever people say to me that suicide is an easy option, they have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what it even takes to get to that point where you are thinking in that way. You try having 3 nutritional problems all at once without even realising it, and see how you cope with life then!
Changing my nutrition, that was the BEST THING I EVER DID!
And now comes the living, and beleive me, it’ll really be the EASY part!..
But that seams to assume that mental problems don’t fall into the 2nd category. Having just those two restrictive categories leaves out a lot of grey area.
What if someone feels that they are “terminally mentally ill”???
How is it different if someone feels they have a mind which is permenantly broken? Of course, it may not actually BE permenantly broken, but because of the fact that it is their mind which is broken, and it’s their mind with which they think, they will think that their mind is permenantly broken, that there is no way forward. Don’t you see how logic is absent in that state of mind?!
If your leg is broken, your mind is seperate, so your mind will know that your leg will get better eventually. Whereas, if the thing that is broken is the very thing with which you perceive the universe around you (in all intents and purposes it IS your universe) then by definition you will think that the universe is wrong and therefore you need to exit from it. Don’t you see, that all previously assumed rules about the meaning of life all fall completely apart when your mind is in fragments?!
Right on spot Ed Case. Many people seem to forget we are more than our mind, and judge suicide from a purely abstract and mental POV. But we also have a body and body and mind are really not as separate as many think. Depression is as much a physical as it is a mental disease, brains get sick too. If you care for your body, your mental condition will be better. Both aspects are important and related. If not, then how could this fact be possible:
A purely psychological (let alone ethical judging “thou are wrong”) approach wouldn’t help those people. Psychological help may be necessary, but it’s not sufficient. They need more serotonin! Which means better nutrition, a healthy way of life, and possibly medicines.