The God Delusion

Bolax, instead of arguing with timothy, you seem to be focusing on the fact that he put down the book.

Now i would be happy to hear you argue for the book, instead of making fun of people who call it the peice of crap it is.

And i know what your going to say,
your just going to point how when i tell you to argue, somehow my logic is wrong and still not put an argument that supports dawkins

He recognized my Magritte reference, I’d tap that. :tongue:

Me too actually…

Believers, give me a break. If you want to test your faith, read Dan Brown’s ‘Angels and demons’. a great novel. taught me a lot about God. There’s probably no God. so stop worrying and enjoy your life

I guess it’s like my Dad used to say, ask a teenager while they know everything… [/patronising]

Tomothy, I’m not offended. Can’t be when I’m right. And as far as the age thing. I know much more relevant information, less trivia, than the average 50-60. Not all, but most. It’s okay oif you don’t think Gods real. You’ll find out one day. Thank God it’s not on me to convince you. We’re called to try, to attempt and share. He opens eyes. And while you smile and patronize, I smile because of the joy and never ending nirvana I’ve found in the Lord. He is personified intelligence. Look around you, what did you create Tomothy? You didnt even create yourself. At most you created a table, a fish tank, birdhouse. God designed the entire universe. As well as LDs. You will wake up one day. Don’t nit pick other people as your reason not to believe. We, as in Christians, arn’t perfect either. But we’re the sect of believers who are TRYING to be.

God does answer Why, Science answers HOW God did it. Design doesnt sound like anything, it’s the other half to a whole. God can answer both. Science lacking purpose in life, can only begin to describe gravity/photosynthesis/atoms. Science is a bunch of fancy words put to things that already existed. We as humans are not discovering more, we are making more stuff up. More irrelevant distractions.

If you dont see God when a baby is born, or during a sunset, or as you hold a female friend, or petting a dog, or watching the wind blow, or seeing a plant grow… then there is nothing I can do. The whole world is a sign of intelligent creation.

“Your probably the type to explain away a rainbow”

Light refracted through gases of whatever…

I’ve tried, and will try again. Pure logic leads to a creator. Surrender control and your ego. Maybe you don’t want to answer to something higher? Dunno? Thats between you and the judge. Hopefully the day you bring a child into the world it will click as you hold life in your hand and you yourself feel like God to that child.

I don’t really have the patience for god discussions :tongue: but I was just wondering if anyone here has seen Zeitgeist? (the first part, at least) what are your thoughts? Although I admit I didn’t really research any of the information presented there :shy: , it made a lot of sense to me. Then again, I wasn’t raised a christian, so…

(sorry if this is slightly off-topic)

Your right, I cant dive into it again. I have the same debate, that’s already been heard. besides 5-6 billion people are believers, just with different names. I have no reason to voice what I believe to be true. God (Our cosmic intelligence) wants to reveal himself to you, he will. In an amazing way, that will have you in awe. I know this to be correct. Not a matter of if, but when… hmm when…???

But I must laugh, someone said we built ourselves, and so did the tree. Ha Ha Ha. I gues I wasnt there in class that day. I must have missed the chapter of cosmic architecture. You know, orbits… atmospheres… intelligent life.

I have been called closed minded before. I just spin that as, “I’ve made up my mind.” We all have to sometime. I am open to different religions and sects. Not atheism. Sorry. There is to much logic and science behind creation.

Einstein spent much of his life trying to read God’s head. And on his deathbed he was asked if he believed and replied “I use to think God was a gardener. I’ve come to find he’s the garden.” Well put Professor.

(When did “educated in logic” come to mean “can’t get laid”? And EllyEve, I take that as a flirt :tongue:)

Wond3rland, as much as my gut tells me to respond in a rhetorical fashion, I will withdraw and I will instead dissect your arguments to expose their illogical state.

Provide evidence that you know much more relevant information than the average 50-60. Provide evidence that you are right.

Provide evidence for this.

Prove it.

Secundum quid, reductio ad ridiculum and a straw man argument. You are distorting what science consists of and summarizing its contents to something very inaccurate. In addition, you present science in a fashion which makes it look ridiculous, when it is not necessarily so.

Prove it.

Argumentum ad populum, just because many people believe it, does not mean it is correct.

How do you know it? Provide evidence which supports your knowledge.

Reductio ad ridiculum and a straw man argument. You put something in a fashion appearing ridiculous to make the arguments seem ridiculous, when it is not necessarily so. In addition, you make a straw man argument by distorting what science’s position on the creation of objects say, in order to draw a radical conclusion, without even asserting the original claim.

Contextomy, a form of false attribution, or fallacy of quoting out of context. Quote mining if you will. Provide reliable evidence that Einstein said this. And even if you do, it doesn’t matter, because…
Argumentum ad verecundiam. Einstein was a very proficient scientist, but that does not mean that everything he said was correct.

I should mention here that I have written computer programs which simulate evolution using genetic algorithms, and thus I have proved that the evolutionary principle is correct. I will supply these programs to anyone who asks. (and indeed, a straw man argument - evolution is not random. Natural selection is highly non-random, and is the most important part in the principle of evolution)

If you respond with further illogical arguments, I find no point in arguing with you, because then I know that you are arguing on an emotional level on which any conclusion can be made, instead of on a rational level where logical conclusions are made.

I would like to join this debate for the fun of it, i don’t set out to make enemies, or change opinions.

From what i have gathered, there are 3 different theories on the existence of the universe.

  1. Intelligent design

  2. Big Bang/Evolution

  3. Computer Simulation/Dream
    You can consider 1 and 3 basically the same as they would require a superficial being.
    In my opinion the theory of Evolution is flawed because of many small reasons. i will point out a couple.

  4. species in between - There are no animals in between today’s known species. For example if humans evolved from monkeys there would have, at some point had to be something in between monkeys and humans. Is there any reason why all those species would have died off today? And even if they did we haven’t found any remains of them. <that isn’t entirely true, as i have heard that they have found few things they classify in between; but shouldn’t there be millions of them?

  5. The evolution of sex - assuming we came from single celled organisms, at one point we would have had to come from budding (splitting into two identical organisms) to our sexual reproduction. Are you going to tell me that a male and a female evolved at the same time.

Science is generally based on proof, the thing is there is no proof for the existence of the universe.

If you don’t believe in God, then for your sake i hope your right.

Pretty sure the standard line is that humans and monkeys evolved from a common ancestor rather than humans from monkeys…

ah well the point still remains valid.

You knwo, you’d get a lot more recognition if, instead of making fun of everyone else for the fun of it, you actually argued! Now theres a though, argue back. This whole topic started because you said we should read some book, we read the book, and find out it’s a piece of dung, we tell you it’s a peice of dung and tell us our arguments against the book are illogical. We look at the book again and see the book is illogical. You mock us cause you must have more intelligence many different people with more experience, who know more then you do and probaly ever will.

hear that? Thats the sound of an ego deflating, now try to do that with yours befor you post in this topic again.

Now provide arguments for your book and for science that disproves God and intelligent design in general, or don’t post in this topic at all, we are here for intelligent debate, and to share our point of views, we cannot prove half the stuff we say, i’ll bet 10$ that you can’t absolutly prove what you say either.

Now try to have a post where you argue for yourself instead of mocking people wayyyyyy smarter than you.

SPOILER - Click to view

Sorry for the insulting posts mods, but the guy was driving me crazy and i just had to get my message through, this won’t be a habit and i’ll only pull it off once in a blue moon, and you know how rare those are :tongue:

No. When a recombination of genes occurs which is superior to the current generation’s genes, then those genes will gradually spread through the generation’s individuals until practically a new species or variation dominates the population. In other words: The ape ancestor that was our and the modern monkeys’ ancestor’s could simply not spread his genes enough, because they were inferior, versus the new proto-humans and proto-modern-monkeys to survive for generations ahead. This can be and has been proven through genetic algorithm simulations in which this effect is observed.

Do you really mean to tell us that you don’t think hundreds of scientific papers published in scientific journals have been written on this very subject?

Science cannot per definition provide an explanation for everything - there are still mountains and mountains of unanswered questions (for example, in physics, why there is more matter than anti-matter in the universe). In addition, old theorems are constantly corrected to more accurately predict reality, and thus science is forever changing. Thus, we still do not know if there is evidence “for the existence of the universe”, but neither does science have to provide one to remain valid, which it is.

That is not how the topic started. Regardless, you (meaning “you” as a group) have thus failed to provide valid, logical evidence why the book “is a piece of dung” - I have “argued back” by explaining why these arguments are invalid, and thus do not form a valid opinion.

Provide evidence for why it is illogical, and I will listen.

Non sequitur, wrong cause, and appeal to emotion for one of your premises. Even if I would mock you (which I don’t), why would the cause be that “must have mor intelligence”? Provide evidence that this is the cause. In addition, an inconsistent comparison, because you are comparing knowledge from experience and knowledge from “intelligence”, which is invalid.

Argumentum ad hominem.

I can prove what I say, because I am using logical reasoning. Emotional arguments are invalid in reasoning. In addition - the burden of proof of God does not lie on me, but on the person that theorizes God. (To explain this with Russel’s Teapot; suppose I told you there was a teapot orbiting earth, which we cannot detect because our telescopes are too weak. If I told you to disprove that, you couldn’t, of course, which is why the burden of proof lies on you, not me)

Appeal to flattery. Yes, that is a logical fallacy; by flattering others you try to gain support for your arguments, even though the content of the argument may be completely incorrect.)

YEA,YEA :wink: go danielns13 :content:

God. Prove it? I am saying this. “God is the intelligence behind coincidence. Trees give off oxygen, absorbing carbon. We absorb oxygen and give off carbon.” You see the design in that. The over all intricacy of the universe is astounding with a persons eyes opened. A male and a female come together to create life. God becomes less distinguished once the small miracles are taken for granted. Water falling from the sky. That’s God. The intelligence it takes to create a habitable planet with cyclical nature laws providing all the necessary resources. Plants growing off sunlight. Food growing from the ground. The fact light refracts every color in the spectrum. All our scientific knowledge and discoveries of the last century are a testimony to God’s magnificence.
Your human body is a wonderful piece of art. Thought, blood stream, nervous system, emotions… consciousness.

“The Big Bang is correct. God Pulled the Trigger.”

Regardless of what you say it is not necessarily correct. Provide evidence that God exists, instead of claiming that God exists because you say it.

@Bombax: Why don’t you provide some evidence that God doesn’t exist?

I just said why above, and apparently you did not read it:

Sorry, you’re right I did miss that. On the other hand we are talking about a book in which Dawkins attempts to disprove the existence of God.

I haven’t come here to proselytize or convert anyone, but your suggestion that it’s a good book led me to assume (perhaps erroneously) that you believe such an endeavor is possible or worthwhile.

I can’t satisfactorily prove the existence of God and I’m not sure such a thing is even possible. In any case I have no intention of trying.