Interesting hmm its fun to see how people that think they know their religion react when you find somthing they didn’t know.
Wait, Lucifer’s supposed to fall again? That’s silly, fall from where?
See? IN HEAVEN. Obviously Lucifer has to be in heaven for him to fight in it.
This passage tells you that the place of Lucifer and his angels was in heaven before the war with Michael and his angels.
And I pose the question again, if these verses in Revelations do not describe the original fall of Lucifer, then where are the verses found that do?
He doesn’t have to be in Heaven to fight there.
Since this is talking about things that have not happened yet since this is talking about the end of days Lucifer attempts to fight back and goes back into Heaven and challenges God once again.
Where exactly his original fall is I don’t know. But if you think about it these verses are talking about somethign that has not yet happened.
Does he have really long arms?
Again, I point to the passage, “neither was their place found anymore in heaven.” That sentance explicitly states that before the battle, Lucifer’s place was in heaven.
And if anyone knows any other verses discussing the fall of Lucifer, or a passage that tells of "the fall before the one in revelations 
", please, let me know!
Again, I point to the passage, “neither was their place found anymore in heaven.” That sentance explicitly states that before the battle, Lucifer’s place was in heaven.
That doesn’t really mean that he belonged there in the directly before this… I mean, it isn’t my place any more to eat baby food. But it has been that way for a long time. It’s not like that just happened yesterday.
Also, you can’t really say that he would have to be in heaven to fight there. For one, don’t we say that God is in heaven. But he is on Earth. But if he’s in heaven he can’t be on Earth. Get the point? Also number two, what if it is a tad metaphorical. I’m no Bible buff, but I do know there are plenty of not so explicitly labeled metaphors. Perhaps, it was his minions? If GW Bush sends troops into Iraq, but is beaten, he doesn’t even have to set foot in the country to be declared the loser of the battle.
I also would like to point out that it is possible that it was translated odd, which does happen, and by being cast out into the earth, he was cast out into the Universe OTHER than Heaven. From there perhaps he went back to his Hell, or perhaps this is just another metaphor.
Or perhaps, this may sound crazy, but he WAS on earth when he tempted Jesus, now wasn’t he. That doesn’t mean that this is Hell. If it makes it easier, He was cast out of Heaven, landed on Earth, then created a HQ in Hell, but comes to Earth to tempt people. Then at the end of days, he breaks back into Heaven, which starts the war.
Anyway, I usually try to stay away from Bible fights, because I believe that Christianity is flawed. The bible was written not by God, but by men. And it has been translated. Any one who studies languages can tell you that a near perfect translation can still lose the “meaning” of the word.
I gave you some possibilities that I thought of, now I am done. Say what you will, I’ve said my part.
Yeah, but you would not write it in a book. That would like if you were writing an autobiography, and were writing about a great steak dinner you had on your birthday, and then wrote; “The steak dinner was wonderful. It was perfectly cooked and juicy, and there were mashed potatoes on the side. I do not eat baby food anymore.” They would not have just restated that fact, it would have served no puropse.
The belief that earth is hell could be a loose interpretation of many different religions (I think Hinduism is one of them) where you are continually reincarnated on earth until you achieve Nirvana, complete detachment from all earthly things. At that point you become one with god and live with him (or her) for eternity. So then perhaps at one point everyone was one with god but when Satan was sent down to earth, others followed and created the human race. But god being the good being that he is supposed to be created an opportunity to become one with him again.
The only problem I see with religion, is the fact that what if someone was born outside of that religions domain? Say, I was born in Hindu dominated India, and say, Christianity was the right Path. Would God abandon me because I was born in the wrong area? No, I believe that He would not do that to anyone, mainly because it is unfair. What of people born of Atheist parents? People who have Atheist parents are more likely to be Atheists themselves. Would a just God send them to hell just for that? Would a Hindu god send me through hell, because I live in a typically Christian area? It is questions like these that make me sometimes doubt religion. Definately not doubt my spirituality, though, because I still believe in a god. I just know that he is a just god, and that is all that I know. Religion is still important to me, but not as important as I once believed. My spirituality is more important to me, I believe.
I am straying from the flow of the post, but bear with me, I am merely asking questions that are worthy of asking 
Actually, the Bible is pretty clear on what is Earth and what is Hell - in the Bible there is a clear distinction between the two - and that we are in Earth. It’s also very clear that Lucifer “Lucifer was sent down into the deepest of pits which was Hell”, or something like that.[/i]
The only people who genuinely believe that God is even more brain-dead than they already are are integralists/bigoted people.
Those who say it is that way (and I hope they don’t genuinely believe it) do it (and did it, and will do it) to get as many people as possible into their religion, thus controlling as many people as possible. Hell has always been used to keep populations at bay and make them follow your rules, whatever they may be.
If there is a being called God and worthy of that title, I am fairly sure he’s not like that.
So, fear not.
There’s integralism in Italy as well? Gee, I’m sorry for that! I thought that was one of Brazil’s weird obscure past inside jokes… Although come to think of it, I suppose in a country that’s seen fascism, integralism isn’t that hard to show up as well… I could never take integralists serious. They’ve always been just a bunch of somewhat ridiculous extremist weirdos for me.
No, no, there aren’t any here. Bigoted old folk, or close-minded sunday school teachers at best. I am referring to the American case. I frequent many American forums and websites, and (no offense to America, I’m referring to it since it’s the most blatant case) I have seen things you humans can’t even imagine.
Ours, if they can be called so, are nothing compared to some American schools of “thought”.
Heh, I know what you’re talking about. Integralists themselves, at least in Brazil, are more of a weird joke. But some stuff that goes on around here is really creepy. America is a sick, sick continent, sometimes.
Oh, I did not mean political integralists, but religious integralists.
You know, fundamentalists.
If you’re talking about fascism, yeah, we invented even that, sadly. But this is off-topic.
Btw, this topic demands a Nightwish quote:
“Welcome down… to my… Planet… Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell!!!”
Personally I don’t believe in religion, so Hell is just made up. Earth is Earth, and that’s where we are. Hell is more or less just a description.
Save yourself a Penny for the Ferryman, Save yourself and let them suffer!
I love Nightwish’s Planet Hell.
And I agree with Tahku. Hell was an imaginary construct used to frighten people into Christianity. Join or Die and all that.
Just so this is clear, I was realy bored when I started this thread and I dont truly believe in any one religion or that this is realy hell, lol I just wanted to see how many religious nuts would show up and rant and I wanted to witness for myself the diversity of this sites members.
That’s relieving. Believing that hell is underground is like saying astronauts can fly to heaven.
It’s also a medieval belief caused by ignorance about how stuff worked planets-wise.
there ya go, lol I’m still suprised that people havn’t stopped posting on this. well it just shows how much people are realy attached to religion.
Attached to religion? More against stupidity, I’d say.