Who really CAAARES if it was real?

Really. I have seen people saying that lucid dreaming isn’t real and such and such and that whoever think it is real is just in their head.


I don’t understand why someone would care about the authenticity of something if it still give the right result.

Of course, it may just be that nearly all lucid dreamers are subjectivist/spiritualist so they may have different opinions on this. But if you ask me if you are hallucinating of eating good food it would pretty much be like eating it except that your stomach is empty.

Really? That sounds like a bit of a stereotype to me, even if you did say “nearly.”
I didn’t even know that it was a majority, to be honest. Both me and my brother are lucid dreamers (at least technically for me… I’ve only had one incredibly short one) and we aren’t remotely spritualist or subjectivist.

So basically like the Matrix?

I agree with you, OP. It doesn’t matter much if it’s actually real or not, as long as it feels real and awesome.

One argument I always hear from LD deniers is that you couldn’t possibly get rid of your real-life phobias by getting used to them in lucid dreams - yes you can, even if you know it’s “just a dream” and things might not work exactly as in real life, you still get a chance to encounter it on some level, and this will clearly have an effect on how you handle it in real life.

Well, here on forum you have really a lot this kind of discussions and it always comes to one: arguing who is right and who’s wrong. The fact is that we perceive thing differently. So your reality may not apply to mine and vice versa.

I understand your need to express your believe because it really is something that is no different then this waking physical reality. Those that don’t understand that will tell you different. And that’s just how it is…

Life vs LD/ND is no different than life vs a book.

Some people like to read the book, and let it take them on an adventure, or some people even like to learn from a book they read.
Other people like to be the writers of that book, and explore their imaginations.

What’s the big deal?

Degrading LDers is degrading writers.

UNICORNS!, if you hear the word you know what it is and you can see a picture of it in your head, so, i think that they are real in some way, just not physically as far as i know.(its kinda hard for me to explain in english so bear with me :razz:)
like god, if he is real or not it doesnt matter because it has an effect on things that people
do and this is making him real, again, in some way. (this is just my opinion and i dont mean to offend anyone, i know that this a sensitive subject)

I believe that everything you can experience is real, just like thoughts or emotion and therefore dreams too.

Yeah I understand this thread. I told some one once and they practically said if it is not real, then it cannot be fun

Well if that person ever had lucid dream then this person wouldn’t say that!

Keep dreamin!

Not real?
The experience is real.
Really, isn’t that what matters in life? Not things, but experiences.

Aside from exploring the limits of your imagination, lucid dreams are an excellent tool for improving yourself, facing fears, and creativity in general. :content:

Well I do agree (obviously) that lucid dreams are real, but I also understand some people’s skepticism. There is – and I hate to say it here, so please be kind – a lot of bunk out there concerning dreams. You’re not very likely to find a book about this LDing in the science section of a book store, for instance…not as likely as you are to find it in the new age section, that is. Dreams just seem to be that sort of a topic. I think they are fascinating, myself, and there is definitely a lot we don’t understand about them. But that being said, lucid dreaming has been proven to be a real phenomenon, not just by lots of people who do it, but sleep scientists who examine it under careful, controlled circumstances. The same can’t be said for, say, precognitive dreams. So I do care if such things are real, because I want to make sure that if I have an investment in something like this, that I’m not just fooling myself.

Let me put it another way: I myself care about the authenticity of these things for very pragmatic reasons, and here’s an example…not exactly dream related, but here it goes. Let’s say I visit a psychic because I need to speak with a dead loved one. Maybe this person really can speak with the dead, and maybe not. In any case, let’s say this person relays some kind of message for me, and it makes me feel better about my loved one, whoever it is. If this person really could do what they claimed, that would be fantastic, and I’d feel pretty good…but if they were just fooling themselves into thinking they have this power, or worse yet, were actually knowingly passing off simple magic tricks as psychic powers, wouldn’t you feel a little cheated if you were to find out that they weren’t all they claimed they were, and that what you thought was a real message from a loved one was, in actuality, a mistake or a lie? I sure would, because my experience with this psychic (although it might have gave me a result that I might want) wasn’t actually authentic. That’s just one example, and I’ll spare everyone another one lest I seem like a big skeptical party pooper :content:

As everyone can probably tell, I’m not this sort of person. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, a little healthy skepticism is a good thing. Now, lucid dreams weren’t really something I was ever that skeptical about because the idea isn’t really that far fetched, and such dreams have been reported since at least Aristotle’s time. And I think there are probably a lot of others like me…certainly, the scientists who proved lucid dreaming was real were skeptical, even though they also believed it was possible; when you’re a scientist, skepticism comes with the job.

I agree, up to a point. Maybe this part of my post belongs in the Cloud…but you can have real experiences (really, all experiences are real, as long as there really is an agent experiencing them), but not all experiences are of real things. I think lucid dreams really are experiences, but others might be a little less keen on thinking of dreams as experiences. But I agree Wyvern, experiences do matter. It’s good to have a good idea of what it is you’re experiencing too, I think :smile:

Well, yeah I’m a spiritualist, or not really, but I do believe in spirituality and religion. :tongue: But I do say that people do NOT and I say DO NOT need to be religious to believe in LDing considering that our dreams are hallucinations almost, and hallucinations occur to anyone, including atheists. And our dreams are made of phosphenes, which turn into hallucinations/ dreams during REM. Dreaming is like, scientifically proven, so what’s wrong with just being simply aware in a dream?

And the rest of the things I wanna say would make me banned because I feel like being foul to all the people who don’t believe in LDing and give crap.

I think it’s a big concern for a lot of people that LDers will decide they like their dreams better than waking life, or just get too caught up in them, which obviously would be a problem. People believe that that possibility is far more sensitive than it actually is. It’s not like someone is going to learn to LD, figure out how to fly in their dream, and then try it in real life. Granted it is a possibility, but not under normal curcumstances.

About experience in LDs… LD’s obviously don’t follow the rules and regulations of reality. I’ve heard people talking about learning how to play an instrument, or practicing math, and the thing that comes to mind is that the physics aren’t the same. I could easily see someone learning how to do something in their dreams, only to find out that it doesn’t come close to even working in life. So I’m still skeptical about the experience thing.

I don’t know about the whole spiritual thing… I think anyone can enjoy being able to roam freely in their own world without having any spiritual backing.

Sometimes a dream is more real than the real. What is the real actually? Come on people, you can’t take waking life (please don’t call it reality) like that for granted. You know, newer scientists have come to a conclusion that this whole world is made of perception. Which is nothing new. And you all will realize this one day. Spiritual people have known this since the beggining of man. The biggest problem in western society is that it lacks shamans. It lacks someone to lead the spiritual way. Which leaves many people unspiritual, therefor taking waking life for granted.

Source: Reading about quantum physics and spirituality. Personal experience. When I look at the sky it’s purple (I’m not joking), and this is my waking life. Your sky is blue. My girlfriend’s sky is orange (again I’m not joking). What is real between these three?
Ask yourself some questions for once! :smile:

I don’t think anyone can be wrong about this issue. If they believe it isn’t real to them then it isn’t real to them. If they ignore dreaming then they are just missing out on this particular avenue of learning.

We are built up from our experiences, as far as I am concerned physical perception is just one of the variables associated with each experience.

Just because the dream didn’t happen to me physically doesn’t mean the dream didn’t happen. The dream happened therefore it was real. But being labeled as real doesn’t make it any more than what it was.

Why over complicate it?

Well the philosophical side of me wants to say that colours aren’t really ‘real’ in the first place, but that might be a little confusing. Let me put it this way. If you experience something as a different colour than someone else, your experience is real, sure. But there is still something out there…some source from which the sense information is coming from that exists apart from yourself. That’s what I’d call real. You and I might experience it differently, but that’s got more to do with the way our brains work than anything ‘out there’ in the world. Of course, experiences are real, but what we’re experiencing is just a representation of something real…but if we’re talking about stuff, or things that exist…I’d have to say the external world is as real as anything. I hope I didn’t just confuse the heck out of everyone :bored:

It may not be a viable possibility to them, sure. I’d still say, myself, that it’s no less real. Quantum physics may not be a viable option for me as far as understanding the world (I suck at math!), but the things it describes are also real, for instance, in the sense I described above.

While I have a tendency to do this, sometimes I think it’s just part of getting to the bottom of things :content:

Reality cannot be determined by definition what is. Because of all your arguments and examples. We can never be sure what or how actually reality looks in that sense.

Humans can’t be measure for that because we experience this world differently each one of us and second best measure could be technology but it still can’t tell us how it looks because technology “sees” in its own way and then again you have a human factor which needs to make sense from technological data and then again you have 2 different minds which will perceive this data differently, maybe not completely differently because we wouldn’t have world like we know it but prove of this is very much this discussion…

Good luck finding reality! :content:

What if what you call the real [size=59](see it shakey?)[/size]comes from the internal? The whole world is just a reflection of yourself. The external world is a manifestation of the internal. In the end it all comes down to learning through experience, it doesn’t matter if it’s real or not. Real and unreal are just meaningless words.

One more thing, no light - no colours. So it’s just an illusion. I know what you’re trying to say, but it’s not just about colors. It’s about the whole world.

But that was kind of my point. It doesn’t really matter how our experience of it varies…there is still something out there that’s real, that we’re describing, even if every one of us were to describe it differently. Here’s an example – when I look at a number I’ve typed (say, 11), it’s black (because my computer displays text this way); but, someone who has synesthesia might see a blue number; another synesthete might see it as red; yet another might hear the number, etc, etc. We’d have have radically different experiences of the number 11…but, there is still the numeral I’ve typed out, which is out there in the external world, coded electronically and displayed on my screen for anyone who wants to come and take a look at it.

Well sure, your experience of things depends a great deal on what’s going on inside of your mind. But does it come completely from your mind? (If it did, could you and I even be having this conversation?) I don’t think it does.

In fact there are plenty of good reasons to think the external world actually does exist. Really (pun intended). Just look away and look back and what I’ve written here for instance. Chances are, it stayed the same…but try that in a lucid dream, and see what happens :wink:

The reason it stayed the same when you looked away and back again just now, most likely, is because there’s something that exists out there in the world that we can both experience fairly consistently, because it doesn’t change (not at our level of experience anyway). What I’ve written here is more or less static (unless of course something goes wrong with my computer or this website) for example. But if you were to do this in a dream, my words would change if you were to look away and back again, because there is no such stable source of information for your mind to put together into an experience. So, dreams are actually a good example of an experience that does come about internally. When you compare how our experiences in dreams behave to our waking experience, I think it’s pretty obvious that something out there exists, separately and independently of your experience and mine, even if we experience it in different ways (as in my number 11 example above).

But I mentioned earlier that colours probably aren’t real, so I don’t disagree with you here. The source of our experience of colours is what is real (in your example, the light – light really does exist, even if our experience of it varies), and I think that’s where we might disagree. It’s the same with the world – you and I could stand and look at a table from different angles, and it would look different from each of our perspectives…but, there’s still a table in the external world. We could leave the room and come back, and the table would still be there. Not so in a dream, which is an internal experience.

The reality of lucid dreaming has been verified in a sleep laboratory under strict scientific conditions.

Alan Worsley and Stephen LaBerge monitored sleeping subjects with an EEG and asked them (beforehand) to signal their lucidity by a specific eye-movement pattern. They did. Both scientists published their results, and have repeated them too.

That humans can dream lucidly is a scientific fact.