Anyone else had experience with extremists?

Lucid Lounge
1

This isn’t just Islamic extremists i’m mentioning here. Has anyone else had exprience with extremists? Either religious, political or moral extremists?

I was just wondering how many other people here had been affected by extremism.

Personally, i’ve been affected by christian extremism a lot more than any other. Christian extremists have told me that i’m going to burn in hell for not believing in god, and even one stating that I really believe in god, I just hate him for some reason. I’ve had people assume I must be the scum of society because I don’t follow the ten commandments due to a lack of belief in god. To quote the person:

As shown by the quote, this person believes that athiests lack basic morality, just because they don’t believe in a god. He then goes on later to just quote scripture and ignore other people’s arguments completely. Why do they insist on doing that?

The entire argument with this guy can be found on IMDB, here.

imdb.com/title/tt0238380/boa … 842778?p=1

Please note that this is NOT an attempt to change people’s faith or beliefs, just an observation.

2

If that was here in ld4all, i would remove that post. It is a flame, and accuses you of being criminal. I would say that the person who posted that is either a very aggressive person or just a troll trying to provoke. It is the poster that something is wrong with, and judging all people of a religion to be like that is of exactly as little use as the flame itself.

If i were you and got a post like that, i would describe how it is even more the people’s responsibility to make the world better, when there is no alternative and no help from beyond the earth :cool:

3

(an aside: Jason, do you believe in good and evil? or that there’s some sort of obvious, absolute morality somewhere?)

extremism is quite a turn off. it’s cut some of my most interesting conversation. i can’t say i’ve had a problem with extremism. the school priest once rubbed the bible against my nose telling me something like “it’s the truth, it’s the truth, you must believe it” — but that was rather funny if you asked me. (he did that because my friends and i “were caught” playing volleyball with a condom in the middle of school, and apparently that rapes all basic morality and brings us back to stoneage — at which point me mentioning i didn’t believe in god in reply to the priest just made things worse).

but what abot here in ld4all, an in the internet in general? here in ld4all, by far, the extremists that annoy me the most are the atheists. not the “i simply don’t care” atheists (myself very much included, Jason, André, Ryan…) but the ones who’ve been enlightened with the fact that god in fact does not exist and are now on an endless raid to erradicate christianity from the face of the world. yes, Daniel, i’m looking at you! i’m glad you changed.

then there’s the drug extremists and the yank extremists. i don’t know which annoys me the most. drug extremists are usually against the government without any good, rational reason (as one should expect, i as an anarchist often feel embarrassed by that). and what gets to me isn’t really them wanting drugs to be legalized (i’m in favour of that), but how they think every single corner of the internet is theirs to make propaganda. the endless rants about second ammendment are horribly tedious. they’re always the same!

which brings me to the yank extremist. the guys who start topics with tempting titles like “why does everyone hate the united states” in which they try to justify the bombings of hiroshima and whatnot. dude. the german feel embarrassed (say the least) for the holocaust. brazilians feel ashamed for the triple-alliance war. every nation has had its moments. but if you excuse them and try to make them look like normal (which usually involves a certain deal of neglecting facts and talking abstractly), you’re stuck to Santayana’s lemma: “those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it”. but what makes them extremists in an annoying way is not their right to have a different opinion than mine, here too what’s extremely violent and lacks any basic form of education is how these people are ready to time and time again flame the whole moderation for not letting them troll around. this is dreaming forum, this ain’t military forum or - god forbid - /b/!

i haven’t, so far, had problems with muslim extremists, but i have with another sort of religious extremists, and now i’m back to real life. of course, none of them has ever been aggressive specifically with me, but they have been quite embarrassing in the sense that they act like they hold the ultimate truth, and are so blind by it they’re not really willing to discuss. it’s so passionate its out of control, and there is a cost to anyone around these people. i’m talking about the anti-something extremists “anti-muslim”, “anti-communist” (dude, communism died, you’re fighting ghosts, get over it), “anti-palestinians”, “anti-USA” etc. (not to mention the infamous “anti-extremism” extremist) we have a whole class of anti-somethings ruling the brazilian society. it’s riddiculous.

if i have trouble with extremists personally? in real life people don’t dare annoy me with their believes in a violent way. something about how i glare back to them in silence. i’ve had some trouble with extremism here in ld4all, but now that mild problem has become two of my best friends online. (back then i was a good moderator and managed to make this kind of crazy thing happen). what gets to me is how these people stand in the way of society. not because they refuse to think critically, but because they reject anyone’s rationality. there’s no use being rational and asking for them to be rational, they’ll dismiss it.

passion is the key word to extremism… in a society which is grounded on rationality, this hurts. these people are rejecting civilisation altogether in the name of their personal sacred truth. even my ideal of anarchy, which leans towards egoism, doesn’t consider this acceptable. we might as well be living as animals if people refuse to communicate! those with power have the say and that’s about it — what’s the real choice if we’re forced through “2nd ammendment” and whatnot to accept any kind of believe, indiscriminately.

4

Same. On the Internet it’s the extreme atheists that get on my nerves, they seem to feel like they have to go around and inform everyone that “ZOMG! God liek, duzent exsist!1!! LOLZ, u stupid religious ppl listening to sum stupid fairy tale, u sux0rz!” :roll: Seriously! What point is there to that?

I’m a Christian, and in real life the ones who bother me the most are extremist Christians! :wallhit: We used to go to this church where basically it was like; women wearing pants are immodest wh :bored: res, women shouldn’t be outside the home, any book or movie not made by a Christian is evil, any music that’s not a hymn is evil, (even contemporary Christian music is evil) even certain chords are evil because they sound “dark”. WTF?
It was nuts. :eek: One of the people that went there, came into MY house, took MY copy of “Lord of the Rings” and tried to burn it because it was “evil”. Playing cards, (not gambling, just plain playing with a deck of cards) was also evil because fortune tellers used cards to to tell the future. They’re not even the same type of cards! :scream: I guess that means you should never drink tea either because some use tea leaves for divination, and I guess you should also cut off your hands because of palm readers. :roll: I swear, I never hear the end of it from this one guy I know, he and his family always have to say bad things about my best friend, you know why? Because she wears pants and her 21 year old brother has a girlfriend. :angry: That’s IT. She never does anything wrong, like EVER. I went to these same people’s house before to help them out with stuff around the house, (painting, cleaning, etc,) there were some other girls there as well. We were supposed to stay there overnight for two days and the whole time I was there I had to hear from the guy and this other girl about how I was immoral for wearing pants! :dark: Seriously! We were going to be up ladders and scaffolding and it was extremely windy, pants made sense. I kept having to hear over and over about how “You’re the only girl wearing pants, girls are supposed to be ladylike and wear dresses.” Well, you know what? I was also the one whose underwear you couldn’t see whenever she sat down or climbed and you couldn’t see any leg at ALL and they were very loose, non-form fitting pants. I’m just so sick of these people. I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in the Bible, but I do NOT believe these people and their CRAP, because that’s what it is, CRAP. :ohno:

End Rant. :lol:

5

you read my mind, Bruno, you read my mind.

but to answer the topic’s question: yes.

since i’m in a rather un-pleasant mod already, i feel like a nice rant. here’s a few examples.

anyone have a youtube account? yeah, i do. Never go to youtube unless it’s for amusing internet videos that make you laugh. Never go to youtube, especially for religious discussion. The ratio there is about 60-70% athiest and 40-30% theist, and 100% pompous know-it-all. Yes, every last person with a youtube account and an opinion on religion is absolutely sure they are correct, and damn it all (see, i made a funny) to anyone else who disagrees. examples: that Pat Owhatshisname dude likes to talk with a cocky smirk, and i can’t be bothered to remember anyone else but you know they exist.

I’ve never ever had a problem with muslim extremists. ever. it’s weird how that works out, huh? No, i’ve met a few people online who were of the Muslim faith and the topic of religion rarely came up anyway.

As a ‘yank’ myself (though every yank knows that REAL yanks are the ones in the northeast of yankville :razz:), the pro-yank extremist doesn’t bother me much, because i see those people IRL, and am well aware that there are stupid people living here. WELL AWARE. But what really gets my goat is anti-yank extremists trying to guilt trip me into… well i don’t know. I believe they just want me to feel bad for being born. Yes, i’m well aware that Christopher Colombus was a genocidal, thieving bastard. We learned that in history class. Yes, i’m very much over it. No, I don’t feel like praising you for pointing this out to me.

A great knock at this was a movie called In Bruges. In the movie, there are scenes where the main character (british) is at odds with an American tourist. It manages to make everyone happy: by showing both of them as big jerks. Hilarity ensues. It goes so far as that he asks one person where he’s from, and gets this response: “America. don’t hate me for it” Again, hilarity ensues (especially punching someone and saying “that’s for Lennon!” :lol:

I had another point but i forgot it.

So i am an extremist myself. an anti-extremist extremist.

All the usually do it make their own views look dumb if you ask me.

and don’t even get me started on… fanboys/fangirls.

6

i suppose these don’t bother me because i can just “yeah whatever” at them — much like you can just “yeah whatever” the ones who try to come up with a justification for every last thing that issues from the white house. what we cannot ignore is what pesters us the most — it’s those brats who just won’t drop it. :wink:

[center]~ * ~[/center]
[color=#cc3333]edit:[/color] talk about extremism and intolerance, why is self punishment suddenly so apalling to everyone? dude, guy’s whipping him-self. in a dream! it’s not like he’s hurting you on any level; if this gives him closure, why bother? why act around him as if he needed professional help?

7

FEAR OF GOD is NOT the beginning of WISDOM it is the beginning of BRAINWASHING
:grrr: - wandering conversion machine
:grin: -and his smiling extended hand with pamphlets

:happy: -normal dude

:grrr: rubble rubble rubble notices prey (pray)
:happy:
:grin: ( :grrr: ) Hello friend, have you heard about… rubble rubble rubble
:happy: - ? - Why yes of course I have!
:grin: -> :grrr: -Let me tell you the Good News then! :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: !

:happy: ---- > :woah: - > :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

conversion.

false God is Fear.
Truth is Love.

I heard a quote
“The pagans who killed our master of Truth created the religion in his name.”
paraphrased.

8

eyelids, two things: first off, dude! you’re only coming through in waves here.

second: really. be happy, love god, don’t steal, those are all beautiful but really. they’re just institutional extremism. things are not so black on white. someone posts a topic asking for opinions on whether or not self punishment in dreams counts as self punishment. it’s supposed to be out of the question whether self punishment is good or bad — we should all just assume everyone has already made their own choice.

my point: getting out of your way to write yet another post questioning the premises as if the original poster, a 27 years old guy if i remember correctly, was mentally challenged for wanting to be this or that way, this is violent. this is fearing society. so what are you telling us here? better to fear society than to fear god? it’s just different ways of conforming. i think its extremist of us to censor someone from being different in a matter that doesn’t affect us at all. i find it extremely violent, most of all, how these days we absolutely must be, at all times, in happiness and love — even if just formally, even if just apparently so.

this need to enlighten people about the righteous way of love — that is to say, love according to our definition, love according to our personal values — this need to substitute our values in other people is perhaps the most negative, aggressive form of extremism, even if so silent and consensual.

9

I think it’s very difficult to use the internet and not be affected by extremism - you see it everywhere, on every forum. Some are (much) better than others, but it gets crazy a lot of the time. Of course, I suspect a large amount of the people who post the outrageous views that practically everybody disagrees with are just out to make trouble and probably don’t even believe it themselves.

The big mistake people make is getting too deep into arguments. It’s better to ignore the extremists, which is what I try to do, though it kills me to see gullible people being converted by these people. If I come across a forum where the extremists dominate, I just leave as soon as I realise what’s going on.

10

reason is the only way to overcome emotion

extremists are usually extreme because they are terrified of being wrong

the way to create an extremist is to remind them of their motrality, and take this terror and transfix it upon your agendas, for instance, using it to teach them to hate certain things

or to give you money so that they won’t suddenly die,

but you are the one threatening them,
or
their very God, is the one threatening them

it is therefore only through reason to chase the fear away

but it is very very hard to do, because the terror of death, when thoroughly indoctrinated into someone by a religion, especially Christianity , is so very very very very hard to undo.

people will venerate and worship that which is the source of their terror.

the other dangerous thing, is the word “Truth”

truth is the collapsing of all ideas into an inability to generate new thoughts, unless one deliberately chooses too.

it is ideas and beliefs which seem dangerous.

honestly, Truth is ever-changing, it is pncuated by profound feelings of revelation

at one point in time, the ABSOLUTE TRUTH OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE might be … THE SKY IS BLUE!
because you aren’t thinking, or believing, you are in a state of Gnosis, of KNOWING, and it is so humbling that it touches you to your very core

another day it might be I HAVE A BABY DAUGHTER!
and another day it might be THIS MOVIE BROUGHT ME TO TEARNS
and another day it might be WE ARE ALL ONE MIND
and another day it might be WE ARE NOT ALL ONE MIND
and so…

lots of people can get really teary eyed and full of mystical wonder by thinking about Jesus, that’s good enough, but if they are taught to FEAR then they will try to force you to agree with them.

11

Ah…yes, extremists, extremists. They come in all shapes in sizes, yes? But underneath that, they’re all the same, really. I struggle to find the words to express my feelings about such people and the best I can think of for the moment is a kind of blindness…and a madness, and insanity. And it’s not just that…there’s a real sense of self that these people are fighting to protect, trying to come up with any argument they can just to justify themselves so they can feel worthy and rational and most of all…right! People can come up with all kinds of logical arguments to justify everything about everything but who needs it? But hey, right now I’m doing just that. :grin: I have the right to roll my eyes and think “yeah, sure, whatever” while they go on living like they do.

I feel no immediate need to care and I have no desire to. Luckily I don’t encounter a lot of them in my daily life now that I think of it. And how thankful I am! I don’t even know how I’d deal with those kinds of people on a long term basis! I mean, if it were just a short term meeting and the other person really had no impact on my life I’d easily just shrug and say, “Okay,” but if I were stuck with someone like that? Jeez.

See, this is what I was talking about. :cool: Talk about your basic bible thumpers. Is it just me or do humans create a lot of unnecessary agony? It’s very sad, the state of human consciousness. Now, I could go on and on about human madness and the hold of the ego until I sound like Eckhart Tolle but…ah, I’d rather take a break and put an end to all the ranting.

And really, I’m not someone who walks around saying, “Religion is the cancer of society! Destroy it! Burn the churches!” That’s just silly. But so are bible-thumpers. People just have a knack for creating trails of destruction, religious or not. The problem to me is when they get lost in such an unhealthy mindset, and they don’t even realize it. It’s not the religion or the lack or religion…people just seem to get too attached to their belief systems…and to an extemely unhealthy level! Like I said, to the point of blindness, to madness. You can have an embarrassment to athiests—some jerk who points the blame on religion, and that’s no better than a theists who blindly calls athiests evil. But there may also be an athiest, or a theist, who doesn’t go around kicking up dirt on everyone who doesn’t go along with him/her, who is just a pleasant person and realizes that it isn’t about faith! It’s about blindness!

Personally, I don’t put a label on myself. I’m no theist; to me, religion is unnecessary. And I don’t mean that in a horrible way, it’s just…er…humans create plenty of unnecessary things! Like the Roomba! Nor am I an athiest, for I haven’t ruled out—to the point of impossibility—the existence of a greater reality. Agnostic? Eh…I just don’t like any label. It’s unnecessary. :grin: Now, I could go into a long discussion about all of this—and I would like to on my own time—but I think it’s just about time I wrapped this post up.

12

The ones that bother me the most are those that tell me I am going to burn for playing video games. I can dismiss most of the BS they try to force down my throat but when I am told I am going to hell for playing a game, that’s when the ridiculousness just can’t be ignored.

Sure, I play violent games, (GTA, Hitman, etc.) but I have enough sense to differentiate between reality and bunch of pixels on a screen. The make it sound like just because I emulate killing in a game (just a game, not real, hobby, something to do to pass time when I am bored) that it is equivalent to killing a human IRL, that I will burn just the same.

I will normally shrug it off and tell them “Yeah, if it helps you sleep at night, yes I am going to burn in hell.” just kind of whatever like.

My father was pretty bad about it though, I tried to tell him I don’t believe and that going to church was pointless for me. Not once did I ever tell him what to believe or what not to believe, but he tried to force it on me by making me go to church. I still resent him a little for that.

Then one time when I was talking to one of the priests at his church, because my dad wanted me to get confirmed, and I told the pastor, “this isnt right, i don’t want to do this because I just don’t believe.” Much to my surprise, unlike my father, he was cool about it. He simply said, “Well perhaps it’s not that you outright DON’T believe, more like you don’t fully doubt it, but at the same time you aren’t fully convinced.” He was pretty much right, he told me “Believe whatever you want” and that was that.
But my father will still try to force his beliefs on me every opportunity he gets, and warn me that I will burn unless I believe. Can’t stand it.

13

I remember one time, when I started an argument in the house for saying I don’t believe, and when my grandad asked what the argument was about, grandma said to him “he thinks he’s an athiest.”

What the hell? I think i’m an athiest? What, do I not know my own mind now? I know i’m an athiest. I don’t try and force my lack of belief down people’s throats, I just argue with the people who try to force theirs down mine.

I also had an argument with a close friend of mine because I was giving out Christmas cards. True, it is a Christian celebration, and I do celebrate it too, but I celebrate it as a time for family and friends, not for Jesus. I don’t see Christmas as a religious festival, I see it as a time to spend with my family. Simple as that, no need for arguments. But no, he started shouting about how my actions were wrong, and that I should’nt be celebrating Christmas since i’m an athiest. I gave him a card anyway and he tore it up in front of me without even opening it, stating that it was wrong for me to celebrate Christmas, so my Christmas card was worthless.

That hurt.

14

Ouch dude, what a great friend. That would really bother me. Can’t stand how some people try to force their beliefs on your and tell you that you are wrong unless you believe what they believe.

But yeah, I agree with you on your views about Christmas.

15

:rofl:

Quoteing long post’s is evil so i refrain from doing that … anyways ,
I know quite a lot of ppl of the kind you mention DR , i even have some as "not really close but still ) friends , i think that acting an thinking that way is not only very unpleasant for their surroundings m,but also ; you are supposed to LOVE your neighbour .
Nattering about his/her musical taste and the likes isnt really loving …

16

Well, if you people permit me, I’m passing by to give my opinion.

All kind of problems in people mind, I believe, come from ignorance.
Is very simple. We don’t know what is the truth, so we make this concepts in our minds, about people and things (and god), and we are usually wrong, far away from the reallity (even this I’m saying it’s a concept).

The idea is for us to get over the common sense. But not to fall in science hands completely. The way is something in the middle.

I do things in search of the truth, that mostly of the people don’t understand, especially parents, they are far away of my conception of what is living for real. Even this thing about lucid dreaming, lots of people think it’s bizarre, don’t believe it happens, or think it’s scary. There’s other thing’s people don’t understand. But this is just normal. People usually don’t understand much. I’m not being arrogant, just realistic. I think approximately 90% are just conformed. The other 10% search something, but get it wrong. With luck 1% get something. We have to deal with that. Very few people understand a little something of what’s going on in this life and the reason why things are the way they are.

I don’t get angry anymore with extremists in general, especially atheists and religion fanatics. I’m just sorry for them. Hope they find their way.

It’s all part of the big learning.
Just don’t get lost.

17

Interesting how this thread jumped so quickly to religion - there are many more extremists out there than just the religious (or atheist) ones!

18

@Stormthunder: I’m equally surprised!

But I’ll admit, Christianity is the topic that first comes to mind when I consider the issue of extremism. Perhaps this is caused by the dominance of Christianity in modern society; I myself am in a Christian family and find the inevitable conflicts in doctrine that arise to be quite confusing, particularly in regards to the condemnations of the Old Testament (which certain extremists, amusingly enough, seem to continue to obey - as indicated by DarkRaven - :tongue:).

Personally, I find any type of extremism that causes harm to others to be deplorable. Let others live their lives. As long as you don’t interfere in mine, I’ll be more than happy to leave you alone as well. The problem comes when one decides that one must reign others in according to their own beliefs.

Environmentalism? OK. ELF? Not so. Christianity and Islam? OK. Evangelicals who wish to enforce their own beliefs in a country’s code of law? Not so.

You get the point.

What fun this thread is! :content:

19

they’re the easiest to pick on :razz:

20

hey, look who’s here, back from the dead! nice to see you again, Sonia! :smiley:

perhaps you’re using too strong a bunch of words to describe these people. perhaps you’re not. my bunch is an alternative which might not sound so strong, but is very possibly equally as horrible: the way i see it, whenever someone is passionate enough about a subject to dismiss all logic and put someone else’s life or dignity at stake — whenever someone is truly an extremist — i feel that what’s really wrong with them is that they do not know their letters. and that, quite possibly, — but then again it might not — is just way worse than being blind, or mad, or even insane.

if causing some mob havock is all it takes to feel reassured that there is a paradise at the other end of the horizon, than mob havock it is, for most people. Nietzsche had a theory according to which people will direct their every move towards more power. i don’t know if that’s right. often times, i think people act just for the sake of feeling the imprint of their own individuality — not to gather any power, no, but just to feel themselves worthy of making a difference in the world. then again, Freud thought it was all about the sex, so lets not get into meaning of life here.

what i mean to say is. people do act rationally, if you just stop yourself to think in what sense they’re being rational. the results, the social results, the overall results, can be often times irrational. in the sense that our lovely social values can’t account for half of what is rational to an individual — or to a mob full of like-minded individuals. so… burn all the churches? might as well burn the internet for trolls and football for hooligans. no, the churches are just a context. burn them and you’ll get a bunch of hooligans. then burn football and you’ll have a bunch of trolls.

yes, i realise i just came to the same conclusion as you did — my mind rambles. what i meant to say, originally, is: extremists act rationally, but neither according to what we might want to call “commonsense”, nor according to whatever their context is. they’re rational on a personal level, in which sense even the context of their extremism doesn’t matter.

back to Nietzsche: if the basic human drive is to gather power, targeting at external power while not being fully in control of yourself is rational so long as you’re too weak to control yourself. control over others is what we may want to call petty power. in that sense i say these people don’t know their letters: not only does an extremist not know what they’re saying, they usually don’t even realise on how low a standard they put themselves when they act in that sense.

gets worse. we called a woman to clean the house, a couple of weeks ago, and my sister was sun bathing in the back yard. lets recap so as to make this clear: my sister was sun bathing at our back yard. the woman came down to the yard, looked at my sister, shook her head in disapproval and said something like “well, my daughter isn’t allowed to walk around naked like that”. sister in question was wearing bikini. :smiley:

awesome response, thumbs up.

aw! no locking you in his room and rubbing the bible on your nose? you don’t know what fun you just missed, man! 8D

oh, that ain’t just religion. you might also find out you think you’re an anarchist — better yet, it might turn out you think you’re gay.

/me gives Jason a big hug.

precisa dessa formalidade toda não, nego! :slight_smile: bem vindo ao fórum, viu?

[size=100](no need for all that protocol, man! :slight_smile: welcome to the forum!)[/size]

or to learn your way around all those things. i have no problem with religion so long as the religious individual know it is a personal thing. i consider any attempt to mold my behaviour towards a more religion-compliant one extremely violent (not just unpolite: violent); on the other hand, what i’m looking for isn’t exactly for people not to discuss beliefs with me. rather, i’d like to see people discussing them with a cool head. i had to learn to chill. it was hard, but it happened, somewhat. Jon is a witness of the whole process. (as i’m of his). at some point in life, we face a choice. either realise that all we have in common with other people is language, and that in language nothing is granted, or we embrace our passions and reject communication in favour of our values.

they’re just the most evident extremists — since they base their whole attitude around things everyone agrees they can’t proove. if this discussion reduces to religious extremism, perhaps it’s because we’d still like to believe (or pretend) that our political values aren’t just part of a speech, devoid of absolute truth just as anything else. :slight_smile: i’d like to point out to everyone interested that my question has still not been replied to: how come self-punishment is so obviously apalling — or put another way: why is the pursuit of happiness suddenly an evident absolute truth?

not really. at what point are we no longer allowed to make a political party? like you said — environmentalism okay: so green party okay too? what gives us the right to use “monarchist” or “communist” as derrogaroty terms here in America? i’m on the verge of kicking the box and giving a point to Godwin’s law, but lets not. the whole discussion will end up reducing to nazism. but really: what tells us that social-democratic values are clear to make a party, but evangelical-democratic not? what about social without democratic — socialism. why can’t these guys have a party? (the communist party is still not officially recognised here in Brazil!) sorry, but i really, really don’t see an objective way to tell what’s party material and what’s not. (part of why i tend to not trust politics as we know it altogether).