Then maybe July Stone should work to have those experiences so her opinion matches fact.
You are 50% right and 50% wrong. You’re right in the sense that I can’t prove OBEs exist to anyone else. However, I can and have proven to myself that they exist by working hard to achieve them.
I have done the same thing with WILDs, in the past. During each experience I carefully examined myself and my surroundings to classify what type of experience they were. Each was different, as aforesaid. The WILDs were dream like and the surrounds did not much that of waking life to a T. On the other hand, the OBEs had every object being exactly the way it was in reality. I went all over my entire house, throughout most of my OBEs, and even outside when occasion permited, and I am telling you that everything was exactly the way it was in reality. I checked when I returned.
No matter how hard you believe it isn’t real, it still will be.
A fact is something than can be proven to everyone. Again, I don’t discuss the reality of what you experienced, only the way you expose it bothers me.
That’s my point. Something that is proved only to yourself IS subjective, thus can’t be considered as a fact. Otherwise every single stories of UFO or ghosts should be considered as fact.
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This is not a rhetoric contest. Again, why do you think it is real ? —> only you = subjective = belief, not fact.
PS : I cant’ believe we haven’t been kicked out of this thread yet…
I recall there being a study done years ago with a woman who claimed to be able to have OBEs whenever she wanted. She went to sleep and they monitored her brain-waves, and watched to make sure she didn’t wake up. The next day she told them she had flown around the room and told them what time the clock had said. The time she said was the same time she exhibited unusual brainwaves.
Out of topic discussion splitted from the BIG OBE topic
How do you answer the spheric 360 vision.
How do you answer that when your out of your body you acutally in your chamber and can see your body.
How do you explain all the feeling that you got when you do OBE ? I mean in LD you start a dream just like that , it appear like that in your mind but in OBE your conscious all the time and I tell you when you try to leave your body it is a very weird feeling that I cannot describe.
How do you explain the DC in the OBE ( I call it that way) . They just dont look like DC.
There lots of ways such things could be interpereted. The bottom line is we don’t know that much about the brain when it’s working normally, much less when we’re having an OBE.
Um, though similar, I think they are two different things. I tend to look at LDs as inner travel that takes place in our minds as we sleep and OBEs as outer travel that takes place in the physical world either when awake or asleep.
From what little reading I’ve done on the subject, OBE’s tend to be more ‘spiritually’ inclined than normal LD’s are. People who have had bona fide experiences report that they have communicated with non-human entities, had intensely profound personal truths revealed to them, experienced ego-loss and a sense of union with everything, and the sensation that there was a holy or divine influence to the event. The LD’s I hear about on these boards are usually fun and exciting, with laser beams and fireballs shooting off everywhere, but OBE’s are exciting and rewarding for entirely different reasons.
Also note that by dismissing OBE’s as very-realistic LD’s you are essentially saying that NDE’s don’t exist either. This is despite the fact that THOUSANDS of people have reported this phenomenon, and in a completely conscious (if not stressed) state of mind too no less. Where do your theories of REM-sleep come in to these situations? What about in the case of hallucinogen-induced OBE’s? Are these just the drug-fucked ramblings of hippy wannabe’s by your logic? Hallucinations of leaving and projecting your body or consciousness are quite common amongst those communities. The most notable drug to cause this type of experience is DMT, which was proven to exist in minute quantities in our own brain. Here is where a conundrum presents itself, how much of the experience is as a result of the chemical and how much is your own mind? The idea that a relatively simple compound can throw you into alternate universes and create the illusion of intelligent beings which interact with you in intensely bizarre and utterly alien ways is pretty hard to grasp if you ask me. Yet it happens, and will continue to do so, just like OBE’s.
For a long while people thought that you could not dream outside of REM periods. However anyone who has performed a WILD successfully without WBTB will attest that this is not the case, and I personally can say the same. Obviously the brain is an intensely complex organ which will continue to defy the preconceived notions of what it should and shouldn’t be able to do.
I have noticed very dismissive and elitist attitudes by some people on these boards regarding OBE’s. I remind these people that until scientific research was conducted by LaBerge which proved that LD’s do in fact happen, stating that you can control your dreams would have earned you some seriously sceptical glances or even a stay in the local sanitarium if you were lucky.
I suppose all that I’m trying to say is that just because there is not a single shred of evidence that OBE’s exist to date, that’s not to say that there won’t be. Once you start getting into the subjective world you can pretty much kiss every single rule or scientific construct goodbye. There’s a difference between being healthily skeptical and overtly cynical, so try to keep an open mind I guess.
I totally agree, and I think this attitude should be hold on both sides. Even if you believe OBE are real, you should keep yourself open to the possibility that they are not. Which is not the case for some people…
If I remember well, the LD’er Pr Paul Tholey said it was possible to have it through LD’ing.
It’s very common during LD’s. By the way, I’ve had many OBE’s like LD’s in with I was in my bedroom and realized when I wake up that it wasn’t really my bedroom.
All the strange sensations you can have during WILD are HH. They can be provoke through stimulations of differents parts of the brain. Most of OBE’ers agree with that. Notice that the OBE feeling itself can be provoked by stimulating the angular gyrus.
During WILD, you’re also conscious all the time.
This feeling is very strange, that’s right. But I’ve had this feeling twice during a DILD in which I managed to get an “OBE”. And the dream I had after this was just a dream.
Darxide, I understand that this poll won’t clear the problem and decide what is true or not. But there was a poll in this thread and I could’nt remove it!
I choosed this thread cause (if I remember well) there were some pages above a very interesting though complicated discussion between Xetrov and Popov about what can be considered as a true OBE. You’ll see it’s not so simple and they agree that most OBE’s phenomena are LD’s. By the way, if these posts aren’t here you can search Popov’s posts through the forum.
"Darxide, I understand that this poll won’t clear the problem and decide what is true or not. But there was a poll in this thread and I could’nt remove it! "
This is basically the way I see it. Many people may think they had an OBE, when it was actualy a LD. From what I’ve read, I understand that a true OBE is not an LD at all.
If there is such a thing as a true OBE, I believe it is the variety of OBE which happens when we are actually awake and doing something. The ones that happen when we fall asleep seem to be a lot like WILDs.
I do know about the OBE 
