Since I have been LD ing I have had few if any nightmares. I think giving your negative energy an outlet you actually cure nightmares.
Don’t get me wrong I do not advocate the whole sale slaughter of DC in your dreams and in every dream. (Though it is ok if you do) I believe you should keep everything(including your dreams) in balance. 
I believe that any DC only has what power I give them.
Happy Dreaming 
Milod, dream research mentioned by Laberge in ETWOLD says that aggressive behaviour towards DC’s will result in new DC dream avengers attacking you.
You don’t have any?
to my opinion the dream world is like the earth world, if u kill there its something bad like u just killed someone in the earth world u know? U can say I am a monster in the dream world, I have like no control over anything, I only know one thing to do, kill everyone thats all! even in LDs all I do is kill…I cant help it its so fun but its so wrong, i cant control it either…I feel so bad for those DCs…Hopefully they might accept me not as a demonic being programmed to kill…
I don’t shrug them off either, I wonder where they come from and try to figure it out… however I don’t think that dreaming of killing someone necessarily means you have repressed violent urges, it could be symbolic for some sort of other problem in your life too.
Playing a game is hitting a couple of keys… sure you’re killing pixelated people, and enjoying it… but you aren’t actually picking up a gun, putting it against someones forehead, and pulling the trigger.
YOU ARE in a dream. How real it feels and how it affects you largely depends on what kind of dream it is. There are some so vivid that I’d venture to say you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between real life/dream murder other than that you acknolwadge that you are dreaming.
I don’t think kind of realism is really beneficial to your mind. What you have to keep in mind is humans aren’t evil, or good… they are neutral… they don’t have an evil side or a good side… really… I mean… as far as I gather, if you took a random human and kept him away from this world with our morals, laws, etc… he’d just be an animal, a smart animal… capable of killing easily… but not desiring to senselessly do so… he wouldn’t have all sorts of pent up issues, etc… and he’d probably show some compassion to a human he interacted with, being as we are social creatures.
So… we don’t need to kill things, not at all… we need to deal with anger properly before it builds up to rage… there are healthy ways to do that, excercising, punching bags, screaming… then there are unhealthy ways, violent video games, randomly being mean to people… LD massacres…
when you use that as your only outlet, you know, you’re gonna get off on it, you’re gonna get hooked to it, you’re going to be really desensitized, and you’re going to form a habit…
at the extreme, anytime you get angry, you’ll think “kill kill kill kill kill!!!” instead of maybe for someoen that just finds a non-violent way to cope with things might do deep breathing or just really want to go jogging or something…
there is nothing inherently wrong with enjoying violent cinema/games, though if you are obsessed with them i’d say you have a problem… but you know, if you make a huge habit out of it, make a life out of it, you can simply type in a website address and see the real thing, see real people dying… what happens when that isn’t enough?
It can be a problem, very easily, though it can be an outlet, it ultimately only makes things worse.
Porn for example… you’re horny, you masturbate… fine… you’re addicted to masturbation maybe, that’s healthy for your body… (unless you do it WAY too much)… but maybe you make a habit out of porn… well… that escalates quite easily (as i know from experience) and though there isn’t anything wrong with it, it creates problems…
I’d liken it to drinking water that only makes you perpetually thirstier.
I think there is a problem if you need to realistically slay people, especially PEOPLE YOU KNOW, in dreams, on a regular basis, just to vent your feelings… I mean… WHY DO YOU HAVE FEELINGS THAT STRONG? I mean… maybe you need to try and put something else in place to keep yourself from getting that angry in the first place? You know? What happens when you get bored with LDs, then what? It’ll happen… I periodically get bored with them, if I used them for release (i used to, sexual release) … i’d just get that much more upset.
And it can snowball if you don’t have self control.
No, it’s a rather immature thing to do. If you have a problem with someone, do you kill them? Hopefully not. It’s better to try and use tools to root that problem out and solve it. Now granted, there are people that really deserve a good beating… but I mean… you have issues with your boss… maybe you’re about to explode… fine… give him a flogging in dream if it’ll really make you feel better, but maybe use the dream to talk to him, confront him, tell him your issues with him, etc… and try to integrate that into real life.
If all you ever do is kill him, that’s not going to fix the problem… and sometimes the problem doesn’t need to be there, unless he’s just a really particularly horrible person that can’t be dealt with rationally.
I don’t think an imbalance in positive is dangerous, the problem with evangelists lies in their BLIND ARROGANCE… you know… and well, suicide bombing, that isn’t positivity. They may view it that way, but … that all stems from a wee bit too much blind faith and ignorance… and of course poor living conditions.
I mean… you should immense yourself with the positive, but you shouldn’t pretend the negative doesn’t exist and hide from it… there’s no reason we have to be half good and half evil, you know? All we do is deal with emotions, all emotions are are chemical reactions, the key is not letting them build up… a lot of fake happy religious zealots pretend they don’t have certain “impure” thoughts and that can lead to problems.
But you know… don’t deny your desires, find a healthy way to release them, absolutely, but I can only see benefit from trying to be as positive as possible… just don’t lie to yourself and pretend problems aren’t there.
The whole point of this is killing sprees dont’ solve anything, they just temporarily release anger, but they never cut off the source of those problems in the first place…
if it’s just a once in a while damn i’m pissed off at the world thing… i guess… but if it’s a chronic problem and you see LD killing as a necessary thing to get rid of bad feelings, I think you need to be trying different methods… you know?
besids… FLYING… man… flying eleviates tons of stress… i guess it could make you want to jump off a skyscraper… but I don’t see anything psychologically scarring about flying…
sure if you want to have a violent dream once in a while it’s not the end of the world, though…I think we’re kind of on the same page…
I just don’t under any circumstances think you should summon someone you know and kill them or mess with them. I think you’ve crossed the line if you’re doing that and it leaves you feeling GOOD… if you have issues with a person they’ll show up in a ND sooner or later, and if they bother you enough in the dream… kill them, sure… it feels good, they did something to provoke it.
but deliberately summoning/hunting for someone you know everytime you are lucid so you can kill him is pretty screwed up…
my experiences have more than lead me to believe that you can summon real people into your dreams, and interact with them… but even before i had some confirmations it still felt wrong…
So… to sum most of this up in three(ish) lines:
find a positive and constructive outlet for negative feelings
don’t deliberately seek out and kill real people in your dreams unprovoked
if a DC doesn’t want you killing them, don’t… most of them are pretty willess to begin with, take the serious ones seriously.
clarkkent:
Never, as far as I am concerned it is just a urban legend.
holy reality
I am far more creative than that.
Again I am not talking about obsessive acts. I am just talking about exploring different parts of yourself on occasion. As I have said Im not an advocate of turning all your dreams into a “choping mall” but, we all have dark thoughts from time to time and I believe that LD ‘s are a safe place to explore them. I think you are erroneously placing us both in a extremist category which neither of us belong in.
You don’t. All you have to do is look around the world to see what happens when things are thrown to far off balance. Look at history and you will see what happens when one side holds the upper hand.
It is the same for an individual, balance is important.
There is one point I do want to make that I mentioned in a different thread but is important enough to mention here. DC ‘s have no FREE WILL and are completely at the mercy of the dreamer. They are no more than puppets or video graphics and without the dreamer they are nothing.
Happy Dreaming
You probably did not notice that every DC, every dream object, is the visual expression of a channel of your energy body. If you energy body is well developped (by microcosmic orbit, yogas, meditation, chi-qong etc…), you can verify it by merging with any object or DC : then you will feel the energy flow in the corresponding channel. Entering a tornado, you may feel the central channel. Entering less impressive objects, you may feel secondary ones.
Without you, for sure your kundalini would be nothing. But would you claim this energy being your puppet ? It arises in dreams too, and when it catchs you… your are the puppet.
i would turn my hands into chainsaws and then go to a place where there is a crowd of people and see if i can cover the entire floor with blood
if it is a shared dream then i would see someone else doing the same thing
Well is it that easy to answer yes or now? How do you know for sure?
Perhaps it depends on what the DC represents. How would that be affected?
Dr Laberge says that in doing this (crushing the symbolic appearances of characteristics of our personalities in dreams) we may be symbolically rejecting and attempting to destroy parts of ourselves.
Also killing DC’s is called the Senoi system.
But Paul Tholey found that this approach is not very fruitful.
Tholey concluded that a conciliatory approach is more likely to result in a positive experience for the dreamer - allowing the dreamer to understand the meaning of whatever ‘evil’ DC attacked him/her. This doesn’t mean giving in to an attack either.
Attacking a DC (or killing them) normally results in “dream avengers” according to Tholey’s research.
Please see ETWOLD ch 10 for these references.
It’s research by Paul Tholey, not an urban legend, mind you. You’re lucky then if you don’t have DA’s (Dream Avengers).
I do not agree. By seeking ‘dream revenge’ you are not doing anything positive except harbouring bad feelings inside of yourself. You know you aren’t really doing anything or really gaining anything, so the feelings don’t go.
As a Christian, I don’t suppress them, instead I give them to God (for His justice is better than ours) and it feels better that way too for me - angry feelings go away too when you do that.
No by confronting them and giving them expression and a safe outlet I become free of them.
If you believe it then it will happen. For the most part your dreams will react in the manner you expect them to. I have no doubt that tholey’s subjects experienced this. I am sure that his subjects experiences were a result of their beliefs about dreams and what they represent. Since I have no such beliefs my mind does not obligingly provide me with any avengers because I do not “expect” them.
No…
Elaborate? There are enough resources/land on this earth to sustain everyone (or damn near close, it would just take us to stop being so greedy and proliferic) … but when you have one sector, i.e., the western world, SEIZING all sorts of things for itself, hoarding, being greedy… trying to keep itself elevated among the rest… you get the extreme spectrums we see right now.
To divide all equally and become peaceful and balanced with nature would be immersing humanity into positivity, and the entire world would only benefit with it… things would return to a natural balance, perhaps we’d reach equillibrium again and take as much as we contribute, like animals do.
I fail to see what you are saying. You have bad thoughts, yes, that doesn’t mean you need to act on them.
Are you saying if you save someones life, you need to eventually kill someone to balance it out? I really am not following you at all. What kind of balance are you talking about then?
To me maintaining balance in the first point, would be ultimate positivity… but all that aside, just because you have dark desires and impulses, doesn’t mean you should act upon them, and by not acting upon them, that doesn’t mean you should REPRESS them, you should just strive to deal with them and satisfy them in POSITIVE ways.
So please do elaborate if you would on this some.
as for dream avengers… I have them…
I don’t think that really means anything… just that if you think what you are doing is wrong, or wonder if it is wrong, it sort of manifests into your dreams as a sort of form of dream karma, probably… I didn’t have them until well after I started wondering if what I did was wrong…
but I am really surprised by some crazy things that happen to me… like while entering a semi-dream, about a woman… someone spontaneously appeared and stabbed me in the back… it scared me at first, then I started laughing hysterically (i do this a lot… it almost feels like i’m not me) and went on with the dream.
I also shot a “demon” numerous times, then once it was under control asked it some things.
This wasn’t entirely lucid though… I felt a need to defend myself as it were a threat, but had enough lucidity to modify my shotgun toward realistic levels.
clarkkent
I took some time to read EWLD chapter 10 last night as it has been a while since it has been a long time since I read that chapter (because I do not really have a problem with nightmares).
Anyway these avengers you speak of are merely manifestations of guilt or anxiety. They do not exist unless you bring them into existence.
There is nothing to feel guilty about in your dreams. What is there to feel guilty about? None of it is real. You can feel free to explore your fantasies, go on adventures, delve into taboos, basically do what you will. It’s all good and harmless.
Remember:
holy reality
I’ll respond to you tomorrow. My responce is likely to be long and it is 1:00 am here and I am tired. Good night.
Happy Dreams
holy reality, you hit on something very important when you said something along the lines of the wholesale slaughter of DCs was immature… EXACTLY… it IS immature… that’s the point !!!
when i encourage people to explore their dark impulses, i don’t say that expecting them to still be running around slaughtering people in their dreams a year from now. i expect them to let go of societal restrictions and let themselves go, i expect them to grow up one day, and i expect that the same person who was terrorizing the dream world to soon arrive at positivity where he does more useful things with his LDs, but NOT because doing so is “right” and that killing peoples in LDs is “wrong” but because he has transformed all that negative energy so that the thought of killing your boss or ex girlfriend simply doesn’t arise, and if it does, it’s not appealing
the entire reason i’m arguing with you is because you are arguing that people not genuinely be positive–that they be positive before they are ready. if someone has dark urges, we shouldn’t say “ohhh those are bad, i have to exercise it in a positive way” the problem is some people don’t know how to do that
i know people that exercise, that punch the hell outta punching bags and they are STILL pissed the hell off at the world. i believe that one should understand negativity, should understand how to exercise negativity, should get rid of the stigma surrounding negativity to let themselves go… and then… once they have understood negativity and they still don’t find it satisfying, that’s when they’ll grow up, that’s when they’ll discover positivity, if i may make an example:
i read that post and smiled to myself. speedo is sooooooooo raw, such raw energy. if you could take his energy, harness it, transform it, ohhhh i hope he sticks around long enough for us to see it
speedo, smear the entire floor with blood, then fill a lake with it, then… then tell me about the day when that no longer excites you no matter how far away that day might be. if i may offer a quote
If you want to shrink something,
you must first allow it to expand.
-Lao-tzu (Tao Te Ching - Chapter 36)
i don’t quote things unless i have seen them in action, discovered them to be true, and i have seen the truth of these words in myself and others. positivity is an excellent goal, but to reach it, you should let your negativity flourish, then you will be genuinely positive (or genuinely negative if after having studied positivity you still choose to be negative) i believe the world of your dreams is such an excellent, beautiful place. why would you put any restrictions on it ??? why would anything be taboo ??? let go
In my dreams im gonna become an evil dictator. HAHAHA, the world is mine!
Tholey’s research, according to Laberge (as I have not read Tholey), says that killing DC’s may result in guilt and anxiety, creating these avengers.
I can’t say I know this for sure or whether you will bring them into existence - possibly you or someone else will. I have never met them and if I do I know how to handle them - peacefully.
But, Dr Laberge did say in that chapter “So, I would advise avoiding such behavior unless it truly seems to best option.”
So why force it? To me it makes little sense. It’s just empty escapism, after all.
I think, however, converting your violence into dream acting might just work better.
BTW: No I don’t think you folks are being extremist.
Thing is, if you expect people to do this in real life, we’d have murderers running around so that they understand that killing is wrong???
I would prefer people to be positive. Why would I want people to be negative? So that they can “learn” from the negative experience?
It’s all very well to learn from a negative experience, but why hope for the worst instead of the best? Why yearn to be negative instead of positive?
Some might learn, but will everyone learn?
My choice for positivity is not based upon having been negative but it’s a spiritual decision. Everyone’s choice is necesarily an individual one - you can’t generalise like you are doing. Some might keep on terrorizing the dream world as you put it because that’s all they have known.
It’s not a matter of taboo as you put it. Once you begin to understand the roots of violence and other negativity, you may see it differently. At least I see it the way Jesus said about evil in the heart of man.
I hope and pray that the ‘negative’ behaviour is not sourced from that.
Please don’t feel offended - that’s not my intention. I wish the best for everyone and hope everyone will make the best (right) decision for them.
It’s your choice, choose well. (and learn from your choice too, that’s right)
I think the theory about the dream avengers may be true, I never really heard of them and I just got attacked by a whole mob of them for killing alot of DCs. oops…
clarkkent… I think, the only way for what he said to work… is with the principles of karma and more than one life.
If we all just have on random life, you’re right, how will ANYONE learn anything? At one given time, how many “spiritual” and peaceful, good, loving, people do we have in this world, that genuinely have learned things?
Maybe a handfull of really respected spiritual leaders, monks, etc…
If you’re born into negativity and know nothing else, well… if we don’t use some sort of afterlife system, it just basically means that there is no way for you to grow, period.
Like you spend a lifetime being violent or a few of them, eventually it dawns on you to start transofrming into good, or at least, balanced, and then you have better lives which allow you to learn more, etc? Who knows.
But karma makes everything he said work, and since I might be inclined to believe in karma, I agree in theory with … well… with both of you.
Though morals are largely defined by our society, almost no society, anywhere, approves of murder, rape, and theft… they might use things to justify doing those actions against cultural enemies, but within their own society itself, they tend to frown upon those activities.
So… I will favor clarkkent, why do we need to learn that killing and excessive violence is pointless by trying to explore it to its full intent? Not everyone can lucid dream, but I bet everyone has at one time or another desired to explore the dark sides of things… so… what then for those who have no “fantasy” way of doing it?
I don’t know. In terms of dreams/lucid dreams though… i agree about exploring whatever the hell you feel like, and learning from it, whether it’s bad or good… or neutral, etc.
Lets say that I’m going around killing DC’s in an LD. One of them is having a shared dream with me. Now lets say we were sword fighting and I over powered him and killed him. (sux for him!) Would it really be my fault? no. would there be any evidence? no. It’s his fault he couldnt defend himself against me. Therefore, it wouldnt be that big of a deal to me cause I probably wouldnt have known it was a shared dream. Now, if somebody I knew was fighting me on the other hand, I would just wake myself up and If i wasnt lucid enough and I killed them and then found out they were dead the next day I would be… 
uke: maybe that could explain the order of events of my feelings.