No by confronting them and giving them expression and a safe outlet I become free of them.
If you believe it then it will happen. For the most part your dreams will react in the manner you expect them to. I have no doubt that tholey’s subjects experienced this. I am sure that his subjects experiences were a result of their beliefs about dreams and what they represent. Since I have no such beliefs my mind does not obligingly provide me with any avengers because I do not “expect” them.
No…
Elaborate? There are enough resources/land on this earth to sustain everyone (or damn near close, it would just take us to stop being so greedy and proliferic) … but when you have one sector, i.e., the western world, SEIZING all sorts of things for itself, hoarding, being greedy… trying to keep itself elevated among the rest… you get the extreme spectrums we see right now.
To divide all equally and become peaceful and balanced with nature would be immersing humanity into positivity, and the entire world would only benefit with it… things would return to a natural balance, perhaps we’d reach equillibrium again and take as much as we contribute, like animals do.
I fail to see what you are saying. You have bad thoughts, yes, that doesn’t mean you need to act on them.
Are you saying if you save someones life, you need to eventually kill someone to balance it out? I really am not following you at all. What kind of balance are you talking about then?
To me maintaining balance in the first point, would be ultimate positivity… but all that aside, just because you have dark desires and impulses, doesn’t mean you should act upon them, and by not acting upon them, that doesn’t mean you should REPRESS them, you should just strive to deal with them and satisfy them in POSITIVE ways.
So please do elaborate if you would on this some.
as for dream avengers… I have them…
I don’t think that really means anything… just that if you think what you are doing is wrong, or wonder if it is wrong, it sort of manifests into your dreams as a sort of form of dream karma, probably… I didn’t have them until well after I started wondering if what I did was wrong…
but I am really surprised by some crazy things that happen to me… like while entering a semi-dream, about a woman… someone spontaneously appeared and stabbed me in the back… it scared me at first, then I started laughing hysterically (i do this a lot… it almost feels like i’m not me) and went on with the dream.
I also shot a “demon” numerous times, then once it was under control asked it some things.
This wasn’t entirely lucid though… I felt a need to defend myself as it were a threat, but had enough lucidity to modify my shotgun toward realistic levels.
clarkkent
I took some time to read EWLD chapter 10 last night as it has been a while since it has been a long time since I read that chapter (because I do not really have a problem with nightmares).
Anyway these avengers you speak of are merely manifestations of guilt or anxiety. They do not exist unless you bring them into existence.
There is nothing to feel guilty about in your dreams. What is there to feel guilty about? None of it is real. You can feel free to explore your fantasies, go on adventures, delve into taboos, basically do what you will. It’s all good and harmless.
Remember:
holy reality
I’ll respond to you tomorrow. My responce is likely to be long and it is 1:00 am here and I am tired. Good night.
Happy Dreams 
holy reality, you hit on something very important when you said something along the lines of the wholesale slaughter of DCs was immature… EXACTLY… it IS immature… that’s the point !!!
when i encourage people to explore their dark impulses, i don’t say that expecting them to still be running around slaughtering people in their dreams a year from now. i expect them to let go of societal restrictions and let themselves go, i expect them to grow up one day, and i expect that the same person who was terrorizing the dream world to soon arrive at positivity where he does more useful things with his LDs, but NOT because doing so is “right” and that killing peoples in LDs is “wrong” but because he has transformed all that negative energy so that the thought of killing your boss or ex girlfriend simply doesn’t arise, and if it does, it’s not appealing
the entire reason i’m arguing with you is because you are arguing that people not genuinely be positive–that they be positive before they are ready. if someone has dark urges, we shouldn’t say “ohhh those are bad, i have to exercise it in a positive way” the problem is some people don’t know how to do that
i know people that exercise, that punch the hell outta punching bags and they are STILL pissed the hell off at the world. i believe that one should understand negativity, should understand how to exercise negativity, should get rid of the stigma surrounding negativity to let themselves go… and then… once they have understood negativity and they still don’t find it satisfying, that’s when they’ll grow up, that’s when they’ll discover positivity, if i may make an example:
i read that post and smiled to myself. speedo is sooooooooo raw, such raw energy. if you could take his energy, harness it, transform it, ohhhh i hope he sticks around long enough for us to see it
speedo, smear the entire floor with blood, then fill a lake with it, then… then tell me about the day when that no longer excites you no matter how far away that day might be. if i may offer a quote
If you want to shrink something,
you must first allow it to expand.
-Lao-tzu (Tao Te Ching - Chapter 36)
i don’t quote things unless i have seen them in action, discovered them to be true, and i have seen the truth of these words in myself and others. positivity is an excellent goal, but to reach it, you should let your negativity flourish, then you will be genuinely positive (or genuinely negative if after having studied positivity you still choose to be negative) i believe the world of your dreams is such an excellent, beautiful place. why would you put any restrictions on it ??? why would anything be taboo ??? let go
In my dreams im gonna become an evil dictator. HAHAHA, the world is mine!
Tholey’s research, according to Laberge (as I have not read Tholey), says that killing DC’s may result in guilt and anxiety, creating these avengers.
I can’t say I know this for sure or whether you will bring them into existence - possibly you or someone else will. I have never met them and if I do I know how to handle them - peacefully.
But, Dr Laberge did say in that chapter “So, I would advise avoiding such behavior unless it truly seems to best option.”
So why force it? To me it makes little sense. It’s just empty escapism, after all.
I think, however, converting your violence into dream acting might just work better.
BTW: No I don’t think you folks are being extremist.
Thing is, if you expect people to do this in real life, we’d have murderers running around so that they understand that killing is wrong???
I would prefer people to be positive. Why would I want people to be negative? So that they can “learn” from the negative experience?
It’s all very well to learn from a negative experience, but why hope for the worst instead of the best? Why yearn to be negative instead of positive?
Some might learn, but will everyone learn?
My choice for positivity is not based upon having been negative but it’s a spiritual decision. Everyone’s choice is necesarily an individual one - you can’t generalise like you are doing. Some might keep on terrorizing the dream world as you put it because that’s all they have known.
It’s not a matter of taboo as you put it. Once you begin to understand the roots of violence and other negativity, you may see it differently. At least I see it the way Jesus said about evil in the heart of man.
I hope and pray that the ‘negative’ behaviour is not sourced from that.
Please don’t feel offended - that’s not my intention. I wish the best for everyone and hope everyone will make the best (right) decision for them.
It’s your choice, choose well. (and learn from your choice too, that’s right)
I think the theory about the dream avengers may be true, I never really heard of them and I just got attacked by a whole mob of them for killing alot of DCs. oops…
clarkkent… I think, the only way for what he said to work… is with the principles of karma and more than one life.
If we all just have on random life, you’re right, how will ANYONE learn anything? At one given time, how many “spiritual” and peaceful, good, loving, people do we have in this world, that genuinely have learned things?
Maybe a handfull of really respected spiritual leaders, monks, etc…
If you’re born into negativity and know nothing else, well… if we don’t use some sort of afterlife system, it just basically means that there is no way for you to grow, period.
Like you spend a lifetime being violent or a few of them, eventually it dawns on you to start transofrming into good, or at least, balanced, and then you have better lives which allow you to learn more, etc? Who knows.
But karma makes everything he said work, and since I might be inclined to believe in karma, I agree in theory with … well… with both of you.
Though morals are largely defined by our society, almost no society, anywhere, approves of murder, rape, and theft… they might use things to justify doing those actions against cultural enemies, but within their own society itself, they tend to frown upon those activities.
So… I will favor clarkkent, why do we need to learn that killing and excessive violence is pointless by trying to explore it to its full intent? Not everyone can lucid dream, but I bet everyone has at one time or another desired to explore the dark sides of things… so… what then for those who have no “fantasy” way of doing it?
I don’t know. In terms of dreams/lucid dreams though… i agree about exploring whatever the hell you feel like, and learning from it, whether it’s bad or good… or neutral, etc.
Lets say that I’m going around killing DC’s in an LD. One of them is having a shared dream with me. Now lets say we were sword fighting and I over powered him and killed him. (sux for him!) Would it really be my fault? no. would there be any evidence? no. It’s his fault he couldnt defend himself against me. Therefore, it wouldnt be that big of a deal to me cause I probably wouldnt have known it was a shared dream. Now, if somebody I knew was fighting me on the other hand, I would just wake myself up and If i wasnt lucid enough and I killed them and then found out they were dead the next day I would be… 
uke: maybe that could explain the order of events of my feelings.
THANKYOU!!!
Noone else I’ve talked to in depth understood what I mean by this, I usually hear myself wondering what the DC is going to say or do, and they do it…unfortunately I don’t listen to it that much to realise I’m doing it!
Anyways…killing DC’s is fun fun fun! DO IT! I COMMAND YOU!
I don’t think it’s harmful…besides the DC that’s now laying at you feet shaking his fist going “why!!! I’ll get you…” and bleeding through the many holes you just slashed in him with your gigantic FF style gunblade W00T Yeah!
Now if this is true I’d be dead by now… I’ve been barraged with bullets, stabbed by people I know… etc…
I think the only bad thing about killing someone in a SD is that you’d basically give them a nightmare and it probably effects how they think about you.
If you two are sword fighting well, then you two probably want to be sword fighting in the first place, unless you just attacked him for no reason, or he you.
It depends on the context of the dream I’d say, to whether it would be a negative experience for a shared dreamer… dreaming about sword fighting might not be someone’s cup of tea, but why are they dreaming about it in the first place? So… if it’s lucid they’d probably just walk away.
But you know if you just randomly killed a real dreamer yeah, that would probably bother them quite a bit, give them a nightmare or something.
Then I guess well, maybe there could be real dream creatures on various “planes” that you could actually really harm? That would suck.
oh and I’ve heard the whispering… not always, but sometimes. It could be telepathy though…?
flo (many post above) talked about merging DC and such… I’ve only been reading on the subject for a short time so I’m not really sure at all of what I experienced but here goes… This is a dream I had many years ago (I was 6 or 7 years old at the time), I have had other LD as it turns out yet nothing has ever matched nor resembled this one in any way, NOR do I wish EVER to have one of the kind…
I remember awaking startled by something, I was lying down on my back just as I had gone to sleep. Suddenly the distinct 'RUSH' of fear from a nightmare washed over me. (I find it reasonably simple to auto induce a nightmare state, as I call it: Heart pounds strongly, adrenalin rush with greatly increased awareness accompanied by a great fear of something). Well, during all this time I had my eyes shut, upon feeling the nightmare state I opened my eyes and found that indeed I was lying on the bed in my room and floating not more than 2 feet from my face was what I can only describe as the devil's head. My right arm was lying outside the covers by my side and my left arm, which was 'trapped' under the covers, was gripping some cylinder or something(I never actually looked), yet I 'felt' it to be important
Now comes the part that still sends shivers up and down my spine... :sad: This daemon head, charged my face with teeth clashing. With my right arm I kept it at bay by holding its forehead, between the horns. It was a physical struggle! It kept lunging at me, each time I blocked, I felt myself getting weaker and weaker. Although I was repeating to myself: This is a dream, this is a dream, don't worry... The fear was starting to become overwhelming. I felt hopeless, noway did I have the means to defeat this THING, just when I was about to cave I (and someone PLEASE tell me what this means), called to my parents who slept across the room and in a very weak voice asked, no better yet COMMANDED them to "Lights! Turn on the lights!" (i believe those where the actual words). Well, that is exactly what they did! But instead of awaking, the daemon head simply vanished!!!! my arm suddenly passed through the space where moments ago he floated?!! Stranger still, I still was grasping the cylinder for at least 5 seconds!!!
Now I have had many ND and some LD, but I always wake up from them. I can't explain what happened that night at all?? I clearly remember seeing my room, the starlit hallway and infront of it my parents door ajar. I remember struggling with this thing and barely making out the words, and how the lights went on and this AMAZING feeling of relief, of having been pulled away from death!! Watching how the thing dissolved into nothingness, I lay gasping for a while, yet fully aware!! (could I possibly have missed the transition to waking life somehow? moving in my sleep so my physical body was recreating my exact dream maybe??)
Afterwards I fell asleep and had a LD where I created under my bed a thousand giant vats filled with molten lava (so it seemed). I carefully instructed thousands of little helpers (they seemed like living lego men), to cut the Daemon head, which was defeated by light??, into thousands of pieces and throw each piece into one of the vats. After watching and assurring myself that the task was well done I felt tremendously relaxed and promptly faded into unconciousness... I did wake up feeling wierd, although I can't remember anything from the next day. The dream is still fresh in my mind, as if i dreamed it yesterday. And all this was 15 years ago!!
(sorry if this should have been posted in another forum, but since this one’s about fighting it seemed to fit in, especially after reading about these super godlike DC) well thanx anyways 
and see you around!
oh about the DC fusing how do you do that? I want to try it but I dont want it to over power me plus I dont want a demon. How do they look like anyways? I dont want anything bad to happen to me afterwards.
i don’t expect people to go around killing in real life, i said for them to knock themselves out if they feel so inclined in their dreams
i’m brining this example up because i understand that you are chrisitian… christianity in some form or another has been around for 2000 years, and that encourages people to be positive… are all chrisians positive ??? nope
so if that is your argument against my stance… that it won’t produce the desired effect for everyone… i can criticize christianity with the very same argument
i’m NOT “yearning” that anybody be negative instead of positive. i thought i had made that clear. i AM yearning that people not shy away from their negativity, and explore it in a relatively safe medium (ie their dreams since this is a dream forum after all) AND that they balance their negativity with positivity
my choice for the willful exploration of negativity as long as it’s not at the expense of positivity is a spiritual decision as well
just as some people might continue terrorizing the dream world while you are advocating positivity, again you are criticizing my stance with the very same arguments that can be used against your stance. personally… it is not my goal to change everybody’s mind… if i can get 1 mind outta 100 to see what i see, i’d be happy. 1 outta 50… i’d be overjoyed
truthfully… this is the only part of your post i found offensive. do you really think i’d be up on my soap box talking about negativity versus positivity if i didn’t have what i would call a deep understanding of them both ??? if i haven’t studied and explored the roots of them both ??? i really hope you don’t think that little of me. you can think i’m wrong… that’s fine, but to suggest that i don’t understand what i’m talking about… shakes his head
nope, this is possible within one lifetime, i’ve seen it with my own eyes in myself and in others
Lol, ok, im one step ahead of you thought…
In my next dream im gonna get stoned and go on a rampage hehe! I could imagine myself in a cop station being all high and shooting them all away. Its like yes im high biches!
One thing you must undersand though all those against DC killing is that you cannot truely kill a DC, because they do not exist. Its like saying, oh im gonna go to hell for killing nothing. Can you kill nothing? Same thing goes with violent video games, when you kill a game character all is whats happening is the decontructor for the character object will be called, and all its memory will be equal to null. Is there anything wrong with calling a decontructor, I think not (for java the garbage collector will be used, I was talkiing about c++). So, in your mind when you kill the DC, all what happens is that your memory gets erased, nothing more.
I mean, then some argue, but your THINKING about killing, and thats wrong. Well, im not, cause you cannot kill a DC, like you cannot kill a game character, im THINKING about changing the memory in my head, or in my RAM.
So, as long as you keep your intention of killing non-existant things its fine. But, once you start fantisizing about killing the actual person, I mean if you start to do the killing because you really hate the real person, then I think its wrong.
So my overall opinion is, is that I should not kill Dream Characters that represent real people out of hate for a person that actually exists. Otherwise go ahead and kill anything in sight, even if they look like someone you know (keep in mind they are NOT that person). Now, thats my bottom line for my morals and such.
Keep in mind, that my MAJOR premis for this argument is that there is no such thing as shared dreams. But, I dont believe in them, since most dream characters seem fake, and that there is no proof after all these years of humans dreaming.
Let me add a few things:
------------------------QUOTE(hehe ghetoo style)--------------------
oneiromancer wrote this:
Once you begin to understand the roots of violence and other negativity, you may see it differently.
I think the root of violence and negativity is where it is in your heart, or your intentions to be violent or negative. So, killing in your dreams is not the root. Also, you kill in your dream because of an intention or desire of your heart. And that is why I think you should not worry about if you are going around killing dream characters, but rather WHY you are. So, when I kill dream characters, I am not hating anyone, or even the dream character (there are not real, so hating them is silly), so I see no problem.
Violence brings more violence, in the end. Just look at the real world.
Of course you can’t because it would make no sense!
What fault is it of Christianity if somebody plainly doesn’t care even though they call themselves Christians?
Being positive or encouraging it won’t produce good results in everyone, but I see it as better than the opposite (not encouraging it).
There is no karma - it is appointed to man to live and then die once besides the fact that it would serve no purpose, and would be impersonal completely! But it’s getting out of the topic which I don’t want to.
I agree with you on this part even though I’m for no dream killing at all
except for a DC ‘dream acting’ the part of a person being killed.
Clarkkent, no offense, but that makes no sense to me… I’m not saying there IS karma, but if there is NO karma, it is NOT up to a man to make himself some sort of “good” person, and well if he isn’t greeted with “heaven” or “hell” or whatever, why even be good?
So I don’t know what you believe, but if you believe in heaven/hell, then imagine for a second you were born into the middle east, in a poor family of religious extremists… now… I don’t want to use this stereotype… but it’s the best one I can think of right now… they(the FAMILY, not the religion) are basically terrorists…
SO… your family, if you somehow managed to become “good”… well you’d probably wind up dead for blasphemy, becuase they want you to kill… whoever, jews, americans, it doesn’t matter… your religion (sort of) approves of doing such things, you firmly believe it’s okay to do them.
You believe senseless murder is good.
NOW putting a western twist on things… killing in the name of anything is pretty lousy, though, they are defending their homelands right now… so… but anyway… so… I would think most christians would say that terrorist, he’s an evil evil person, and he’s going to hell.
But you know what, it isn’t his fault he’s a terrorist, just like it isn’t your fault that you’re a christian, you just happened to be lucky enough to not be born into horrible abject poverty and oppression in the midst of a holy war.
You know? If any of us, if we were born into that mess over there… we’d probably not be very “good” people right now, nor would we EVER have the chance to develop a capacity to be good.
Try breaking the mindset of a religious zealot, you can’t… they are RIGHT, you are WRONG… and in some cases they’ll kill you over it.
To them it’s the correct way to be, and God wants it.
So how on earth, do you imply, that if we do not have a form of karma, that people like that ever possibly learn anything? If they only have one life, it’s a wasted life. If there is heaven or hell, either God is forgiving and understands what they went through (he put them there obviously) or he sends them to hell.
You can’t learn if you don’t have a suitable environment to learn in… you know? If you’re born into a never ending war, what are you to do? well… umm… FIGHT… or HIDE… but I don’t think you’ll have much time to worry about shaping yourself to be a spiritually balanced person, especially when you are bound at the feet by dogma.
We are lucky, we can sit here and think about these things, and well… for the most part, not be censored… if we lived in places where this kind of thinking was condemned, even punished, I guarantee none of us would “grow” or “develop”
So I mean if you believe there is nothing after death I don’t suppose it matters much, but if you’re going to pitch the “everyone should try and learn and grow and get along and find balance and be happy and loving” way of looking at things, then really there HAS to be karma, or reincarnation, or something, or most people won’t even have those opprotunities to grow like we have…
My point doesn’t have anything to do with the above mentioned religions, I’m just trying to show you that it is next to impossible for certain people to find a non-objective balance to things, to look outside of the box, to think for themselves… most people believe what their parents believe, worship who their parents tell them to worship, etc… you don’t just say “hey, wait, there is no GOD, this is all a lie” because thinking such things are blasphemy, and he’d smite you a good one… (or so everyone tells you)
I hope you can see what I’m saying, it’s painfully evident to me but … well… getting others to listen is almost pointless, sometimes.
we are victims of circumstance, everything about us is initially predetermined by our surroundings and envrionment, and unless that is an open envrionment, we have no potential for growth
^ really off topic…
okay then… oneiromancer… it is possible within one lifetime if you are lucky enough to have a good life where you are free to openly question religion, authority, society, and yourself… but look at most Americans, do they do that? Hell no… they do whatever they are told… you know? If you raised a kid in a cave and told him the outside world is full of poisona nd he’d die… he probably wouldn’t leave that cave (i believe there is a great story by Socrates, or Plato, about that)
But assuming you believe in multiple lifetimes, then how do you know it only took them one lifetime to get there? Maybe it had been progressively building for a few previous ones?
^ still really off topic, i know… sorry… while i’m at it, this is post #111, pretty odd today, the third synchronicity i’ve seen today, and haven’t seen any prior to this in a long while…
On topic, ErikW:
"I mean, then some argue, but your THINKING about killing, and thats wrong. Well, im not, cause you cannot kill a DC, like you cannot kill a game character, im THINKING about changing the memory in my head, or in my RAM. "
That is not going to cut it. You are KILLING them, just as much as you are KILLING a game character, why else would decide “let’s go on a killing spree for a larf!” ?? You ARE thinking about killing, okay? You don’t sit there say "hmm… I think it would be fun to think a weapon into existence, which then holds a place in the memory in my head, then I will move over to a dream character, which takes thinking power, which moves my fictional dream body, created by memory in my head, over to the dream character, who is basically just memory in my head based upon my construct of humans… then i’m going to take this fictional sword construct which does not exist, and put it through the DCs eyes, which do not exist, just so that I can wipe him from my memory.
I am not committing these actions because I think it would be fun to reinact murdering, I am doing them for the sake of … blah blah blah."
You are thinking about kililng them, I MEAN COME ON… I know you are… you might not think they will really die, but the bottom line is you want to “kill” some DCs for fun.
If you’re going to think like that, then you don’t FLY in dreams, you don’t WALK in dreams, you don’t FEEL in dreams… but you do, don’t you? Yes, you do.
It’s simulated killing using your own “hands” (or how your mind remembers you using your hands) … you have not necessarily killed anyone, but the end desire is killing spree, and the end result is simulated death (or whatever your DCs fancy doing when you try to kill them… mine don’t usually die unless its an ND, and … well… I rarely “kill” in LDs, I just fight off recurring demons now and then, or sometimes I find myself being attacked or in a war like dream.)
What I’m saying is the intent is to “kill”… maybe not in a malicious way, maybe in playful “bang bang you’re dead” way, like you do as a kid… who knows… but the intent is to do it all the same.
that statement isn’t necessarily true. violence doesn’t always bring more violence. i’ll point to martin luther king jr, gandhi, and (since christianity has been brought up) jesus. all three of them responded to violence with non-violence
could you call them the exception to the rule ??? i don’t think that would be fair, my roomate threw cold water on me in the shower the other week. i declined to mirror his actions when he was in the shower.
have you ever seen the movie fight club ??? i think the scene in that movie where they were given a “homework” assignment to get into a fight with a random person on the street was a very good example of the point i’m trying to make here. the people in fight club found it very hard to start a fight with a person on the street no matter how aggressively they acted
if i can’t criticize christianity for not producing positivity in everyone, then by the same token, you can’t criticize my stance for not producing its desired effect in anyone that may adhere to it. and the desired effect of my stance is to arrive at balance by the exercise of and the understanding of both negativity and positivity
you are misunderstanding my stance if you think that i do not encourage positivity. i like positivity, i encourage positivity, but in the same breath i will say that positivity shouldn’t be exercised in opposition to negativity (and that negativity shouldn’t be exercised in opposition to positivity) they should be mixed, employing positivity when it is correct to do so, and employing negativity when it is correct to do so (and yes i AM making the claim that there are instances when it is correct to be negative)
learning to make that distinction when it is correct to be positive and correct to be negative can only be arrived at by having a deep understanding of them both. the average person already has a good idea of positivity since in general positivity is encouraged in our society, but negativity usually has a stigma associated with it. it is my aim to encourage people to throw off that stigma and study and exercise negativity in healthy ways
why does everything have to be so black and white ??? why does not encouraging positivity (which i already said above is what i am NOT doing) encourage negativity ??? why does absence of white mean that there has to be black ??? why can’t it be green ???
i think you’re misunderstanding of my stance is that you believe i am saying “be negative” and that is it. that is not what i am saying, i AM saying “it’s okay to be negative if you balance it with something positive” i’m also making the claim that it is possible to transform negativity into positivity, but that’s getting into something else
my philosophy professor calls what you just made a “slippery slope” argument, in that doing action A will irrevocably cause one to arrive at action B where action B is much worse than action A
we were told to NEVER make this argument because it is a bad one. and i will tell you why…
why does doing evil lead to more evil, if i punched someone in the face and they started to cry… does that mean i’m going to go and punch 15 people in their faces… maybe 30 ??? not necessarily
why can’t i punch somebody in the face, see that they cry, and then say to myself “wow that person cried when i hit them in the face, that was really a bad thing to do, i think i’m going to not punch people in the face anymore”
that is an example where a negative action didn’t lead to more negative actions. one negative act doesn’t start a landslide of more of them… it CAN lead to a landslide of more negative actions, but it doesn’t do so as a universal law
anyway, i do understand that “evil” is in the heart, what i disagree with is the notion that one “evil” necessarily causes another greater “evil”