dream characters killing

the Stuff Dreams are made of...
61

The slippery slope argument is invalid. I took a logic class, and the reason why it is invalid is becasue of this:

If I kill someone right now, thats voilent. Now, it is possible for me to be all guilty about it and then all of a sudden find Jesus and be all, oh I should not be violent. And, then I wont kill anyone else or be voilent ever again.

Um, also your forgetting that you cannot kill dream characters, why?

Kill in my dictionary means to deprive of life… and there are other definitions, but when you say dont kill from a moral aspect, its talking about killing things that live. So, since dream characters are not real, you cannot deprive them of life since they do not have life.

Now what about violence, well the definitio of violence is: using or involving physical force intented to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

Now, if you are violent towards a dream character, you are assuming that the dream character is someone or something. Now the dream character is non someone. But, what is the precise definition of something? I mean I know it generally, but what is it specifically?

something definition: A thing that is unspecified or unknown. (well for the the violence towards something, the definition does not know what your talking about so it uses the word something).

Know, whats a thing?

thing definition: An object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to.

What is an object: A material thing that can be seen and touched.

What is material mean as an adjective: denoting or consisting of physical objects rather than the mind or spirit.

Now, I did not mean to be all redundant, BUT, I proved a point. Is that from my dictionary (Which is "The Oxford American College Dictionary), that voilence ONLY applies to physical objects and not mere hallucinations or dreams. So, clarkkent, it is immposible to be voilent towards a dream character. Now, you could argue that dream characters are people… but im asssuming they are not. Thats my premis, now if you believe that dream characters are real, then my argument is valid, yet not sound (keep in mind that a valid argument can still be false).

So what im saying, is that if you say violence breeds more violence, then um Clarkkent, this does not even partian to this topic because violence or killing a dc is not possible! :cool: .

So, its really the thought of being violent or killing (which again has to pertain to a real person or real object, not a hallucination)

62

first i’m going to concede that we defintely are inded lucky to be ablte to openly question religion, authority, socieity and ourselves. now i’m not too sure that it’s fair to say that most americans don’t exercise this freedom… granted, they could exercise it more than they do

as far as people doing what they are told, i don’t by that at all. people will often times do the exact opposite of what they are told… hence the archetypal rebellious teenager. i remember when i was very young my mom told me to never bring home a “little white girl” and how much do you wanna bet that the first girlfriend i ever brought home was white ??? but i guess i could be the exception, but the same token i do know some people that faithfully obey their parents or authority, but i do know plenty that disobey

as far as the kid never leaving the cave, i think he’d leave, by telling him that the outside world is a scary place, would plant the seed of insatiable curiousity about it

hmm… maybe, but i don’t that can be the explanation for all examples

63

WOW mis a day mis a lot. :cool_laugh:

Clark Kent

I’ll tell you when this discussion started I may have disagreed with you. But, at least I respected you and your beliefs. I am sorry but, right now I have little if any respect left for you. I found a lot of your comments to be a bit offensive. I am not going to respond to each one because oneiromancer did that job very well.

The only thing that I will add is that you are a perfect example of what happens when a person is out of balance. So “good” that anyone who thinks differently than you is labeled as evil. In reality, it is when people or, a society develop this level of “goodness” that the greatest of evil acts are committed.

I hope that you can one day find balance. :yinyang:

Best wishes

64

oneiromancer

:lol: I can testify to that. I can’t believe I survived childhood.

Holy Reality

We seem to be having some trouble explaining what we mean. Let me try this.

If you were to use every one of your LD’s to hack and slash people every night. I would probably say that could be unhealthy for you. Even if you did, I would not consign you to the ever burning pits of hell either. In reality you would have done nothing wrong. Your dreams are not real. Even though they can feel real. However, you would also be missing out on so many other experiences you can have in a lucid dream. Lucid Dreams can be used to experience anything and everything free of the shackles of morality, physics, laws or even guilt. Why? Because they are not real. I sense that you may be caring a heavy burden. One you do not deserve to carry. I do not care what you did in your LD. You have not committed any “crime”. You are not evil. In fact I have read quite a few of your posts and I believe you are a good person. That is really all you can ask of your self. Now that we have established that you are a good person, “acting out”negative scenarios or exploring your dark side in a LD does not make you a bad person. It does not change who you are. The vast majority of my LD ‘s are positive rewarding experiences, but (in a small amount of my dreams) as I have openly said I have thrown a few tantrums, explored taboos, and took a look at my darker side. You know what? They were each rewarding in there own way too.

Just something for you to start to think about. Well talk more tomorrow.

Be easy on your self and have Happy Dreams :smile:

65

Ok, since you cannot really kill a dc (but you can think you can)… lets try to get dream charactesr to all kill each other, or even them selves… anyone try this? hehe. I think it would be funny to have dream charactes duke it out. Or what about getting a dream character to go on a rampage WITH you, like have him be your dream charactter ganking partner hehe.

66

So your against something that is impossible to do? Are you insaine?

67

^^^ let’s not turn this into a name-calling match please

or maybe have all your DCs duke it out, and the stronger ones absorb the weaker ones until there’s only one left and then personally beat that one and absorb him :devil:

maybe i watch too much anime :bored:

forget childhood, i’m still trying to figure out how i’m currently surviving young adulthood :yinyang:

68

how do u absorb them? if you do can you get stronger :happy:? I want to try that heheh has anyone tried it?

69

ErikW…

I’m a hallucination.

Disprove it. Can you? Not unless you know me, but even then…

Main Entry: vi·o·lence
Pronunciation: 'vI-l&n(t)s, 'vI-&-
Function: noun
1 a : exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse (as in effecting illegal entry into a house) b : an instance of violent treatment or procedure
2 : injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation : OUTRAGE
3 a : intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force b : vehement feeling or expression : FERVOR; also : an instance of such action or feeling c : a clashing or jarring quality : DISCORDANCE —applies to dreams.
4 : undue alteration (as of wording or sense in editing a text)

Main Entry: vi·o·lent
Pronunciation: -l&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin violentus; akin to Latin vis strength – more at VIM
1 : marked by extreme force or sudden intense activity –applicable to dreams
2 a : notably furious or vehement b : EXTREME, INTENSE applicable to dreams
3 : caused by force : not natural
4 a : emotionally agitated to the point of loss of self-control b : prone to commit acts of violence applicable to dreams

  • vi·o·lent·ly adverb

understand that these dictionaries are not works of “God” and definitions are certainly ALWAYS up to speculation, interpretation, and scrutiny.

Are you familiar with the story? It’s told better than I can tell it… take for instance the witch hunts, no one ever saw any witchery (or so we believe) but they jumped all over small coincidences and sickness and whatnot… they BELIEVED people were witches, so much so, that they killed killed killed etc…

If you live in a society bound by irrational superstitions like that, man… you are not going to be likely to break free… the same applies to the cave analogy… let’s say 20 people lived in a cave… they had a “cave leader” who was “holy” and therefore could leave it and not die, but it didn’t apply to anyone else… now, once in a while, maybe he takes someone out, to test their holiness… then kills them, drags their corpse back in, tells them “this man was not pure, this is why you do not leave the cave”

It’s simple. It really is… why do we have cults? Why was Charles Manson so damn good at what he did (LSD helped though…) ?

It is very very very easy to control someone… just look at America, if you question the governemnt and stand up for constitutional rights, that means you are un-partriotic and anti-american… and can get you in heaps of trouble with hicks…

The rebellious teenager is a construct of a free society the rebellious teenager in places BOUND BY IRRATIONAL BLIND FAITH is going to be severely chastised for acting out against authority and questioning his beliefs.

It’s basic conditioning. You know? Granted they can’t get inside your head, maybe you don’t believe but you pretend for the sake of staying alive… but what kind of existence is that? How do you grow?

They keep us from growing by keeping us away from pscyhedelic drugs, for example (and yes they can be very psychologically dangerous, too) and guess what… it works… I’m afraid of them, but moreso, my parents… and I refrain from exploring a facet of reality that I really yearn to explore… and it causes a lot of problems for me… denying this.

anyway…

I don’t believe that what I do in my dreams is evil… I do believe it is pointless, and that sometimes may be harming real life people… and it does bother me that I do it so much… but it really depends on the context.

I had tons of pointless sex and adventuring this morning, it didn’t bother me at all… I couldn’t help but wonder why I never set meanwhile activities for myself, but I didn’t see an issue with it… everything was so abstract and fragmented and I wasn’t fully lucid… it was probably a mild release for me.

I also beat the ever loving crap out of a man and threatened to shoot him, too… he was messing with me… one of the recurring dream themes that bothers me… I snapped on him… and yeah it did feel good. Afterward I apologized, tried to figure him out… he turned into what looked akin to a kind of skinned toddler and said some nonsensical stuff about my childhood… probably becuase I tried to pull some psychoanalysis on him… but I told him I loved him, tried to merge with him… it didn’t really work…

But I mean I figure… you know, if something is bothering me to the point of desiring to defend myself agianst it in a dream, why not? In the aftermath I can always cool down and try to figure out where it’s coming from, but it also hopefully gives it the message to CUT IT OUT… I don’t know…

My mind is very insane… none of these dreams were as lucid as normal consciousness was, so I mean… I wasn’t really myself… I just see it as a reflection of my underlying impulsive natures… and want to correct it… and when I am fully lucid I try not to do that kind of stuff, because I don’t really approve of it… or if I do do it, I find a non malicious and tasteful way to do it (like dream dating… or… finding some sort of battle with my friends)

Keep in mind that I do believe in shared dreaming, too, based upon experience. If I didn’t I probably wouldn’t even bother with this thread.
70

ever read descartes’ meditations ??? i thought they were very good, he offers a proof (a rather convincing one i thought) of why you are not a hallucination

no i am not familiar with the cave story, your revision of it sounds more convincing though. i’m still not satisfied that one of the 20 people who lived in the cave wouldn’t defy the leader and go have a peek for himself though

anyway your argument (and you’ll correct me if i’m wrong) seems to be about how society can coerce the individual if not into believing as society does, but at least in pretending to agree as society does. i’ll concede that that much is true, BUT in our society we don’t get put in jail or killed for having different opinions, so the only chastisement we can really receive is name-calling and being ostracized by a group of people we probably don’t wanna hang out with anyway.

a strong, rooted person isn’t going to be swayed by that.

look at the women’s rights movement.
look at the gay rights movement.
look at the protests against the war in iraq.

71

Holey reality

Here is something to think about.

In a LD you can not harm yourself. You could jump off the highest mountain and all you would do is wake up. You can (I’ve done it) cut off your arm, look away and when you look back you will find that your arm has returned. So if you can not harm yourself how can you passably harm anyone else.

That is completely normal !!! I think everyone does that. I know that I do. Though I would not characterize them as pointless. I enjoy them very much. I think that part of your problem is the low level of lucidity. May be you should work on increasing your lucidity and vividness. Then you will be able to create dreams that have more meaning to you. Before you do anything in a LD use what ever prolonging methods work for you and try to intensify the dream. That might help you think more clearly. Also if you have a plan of what you want to do in your LD tonight that might also help.

I enjoy a lot of adventure novels/movies and I some times enjoy acting out scenes from a move or book. What is your favorite movie or book. Think about it. It might help you with becoming more creative in your LD.

I believe that there are many things that go beyond Lucid Dreaming based on my own experiences as well. It is hard to explain but, they occur somewhere else. Beyond the dream world. What you do does not influence those realms any more than dreaming affects real life. I have not had any experiences with shared dreaming but, I would think that they would also occur beyond lucid dreaming. However, if it is something that you are worried about I would suggest that you create your own DC ‘s to interact with. That way that you will know that they do not exist. Then you can pretty much do what you want and it won’t matter because you will know they are not real.

On a side note:

This is (one of many) reasons why I am completely uninspired by most organized realigns including the one I was baptized into. I agree with you, it often leads to rigid thinking.

72

That is not the correct definition.
73

also violence is intended to hurt, damage, or kill. And you cannot kill a dream character that does not have life. You cannot damage something that is not physical (damage: physical harm caused to somehting in such as way to impair its value, usefullness, or normal function. Also, since I prooved that a dream character is not something, therefore, you cannot damage a dream character. In the same regards, you could blow a dream character, yet still have it function as an example. Also hurt means to cause physical pain or injury too. Notice the word PHYSICAL. dream characters are not physical, therefore you cannot be voilent to them since violence requires killing them, damaging them, or hurting them, this also applies to dream objects.

Now, what if im wrong, well ok, so what if you CAN kill, hurt, or damage a dream character. Well, then when you wake up you kill the dream characters and damage them SO MUCH, that they are destroyed. And man, that means you basically killed tons and tons of dream characters everyday! So, if you really think that you can kill a dream chracter, and you are against killing them, then you should either stop going to sleep, put your self in a coma, kill your self (well, you would kill less dream characters this way if you really value tons and tons of dream characters lives), etc.

So, either you can kill a dream character, or you cannot. You cannot argue with this statement because this statement is a proposition and a proposition is EITHER true or false. So, if you cannot kill a dream character, I won the argument for saying its ok to shoot at a dream character. And if I was wrong, where as you can kill a dream character, then you are a mass dream character murderer!, and then if you say it is wrong to kill a dream character and you still are waking up from your dreams then you are going against what you believe.

74

vehement only means strong, so there is nothing wrong with this definition of violence.

Also, an action requires you are doing something, and so does a force. And what you do in your dreams is not material, so you cannot perform actions or apply forces in your dream.
Also, the one about losing self-control is intersting, and if you lose self-control, then it was not your intention to be violent, but if you do have self control then you are not violent in this way. And this caused by force definition is talking about physical force, and dreams are not physical. And there is nothing immoral about alteration, which means to alter or change something, key word is something.

So even with that definition, voilence does not apply to dreams. Besides were talking about the definitino #1. not the other definitions.
75

tansitive: (of a verb or a sense or use of a verb) able to take a diret object. And an object is a noun.
These are transitive verbs: kill, rape, torture, etc (any verb that you do to the dream character).
And, a noun is a word (other than a pronoun) used to identify any of a class of people, places or things.
A dream character is not a place obviously. A dream character is not a person. And a dream character is nothing, since it does not exist.
And nothing is not anything; no single thing. And anything is used to refer to a thing, no matter what. So, if a dream character is nothing, then
it cannot be a thing. And, if a dream character is not a person, place, or thing, then a dream character is not a noun.
And if a dream character is not a noun, then you cannot apply transitive verbs to a dream character such as kill, rape, torture, etc.
Also, a right is an adjective, and adjectives are APPLIED TO NOUNS, and since a dream character is not a noun,
then you cannot use an adjective to describe it. And, you might have this counter argument: “Well, Erik, the word nothing is a noun…”
WRONG, the word nothing is a pronoun. And a pronoun is a word that “CAN” function as a noun phrase used by itself and that refers either to the participants in the discourse or to someone or something mentioned elsewhere in the discourse. And, in the case of the pronoun, nothing, it does not refer to a noun. And, when you say I (lets say I refers to Erik) killed bob, you are applying the word kill to Bob, and the word killed does not apply to I, but applies to Erik (becasue transitive verbs do not apply to pronouns, but rather the noun that they refer to).

So, in conclusion, this proof is alot simpler than my other one, and in order to think it is false,
you would have question the meaning of very basic words like noun, pronoun, verb, adjective, transitive verb, etc;
Or, you would have to argue my premise of that a dream character is not a person and that a dream character is non existant.

76

ErikW! Just because the dictionary doesn’t consider a dream character a person (and I would say dream characters are people - not real ones, but people nevertheless) doesn’t mean that it’s etched in stone “You may ‘do’ whatever you like to DCs”!

77

Whoa, lets not get dragged into a dictonary (although I could do with one) debate over words meanings and such, we should focus on the topic at hand.

I would just like to say that negative and positive can have different interperatations depending on the person, although one person may believe something is “negative” or “evil” this can be put down to that persons environment and influences, really perceptions of good and evil are just that: perceptions.

78

This is nonsense!

79

Gandhi was non-violent and never used violence.

But Ghandi, Jesus, MLK jr NEVER played with violent toys, games etc!!!

They responded like I did, not like you! That’s the difference!

Venial sin leads to mortal sin, this is a very researched argument, so don’t
go saying that evil doesn’t lead to more evil.

my philosophy professor calls what you just made a “slippery slope” argument, in that doing action A will irrevocably cause one to arrive at action B where action B is much worse than action A

we were told to NEVER make this argument because it is a bad one. and i will tell you why…

why does doing evil lead to more evil, if i punched someone in the face and they started to cry… does that mean i’m going to go and punch 15 people in their faces… maybe 30 ??? not necessarily
/quote]

80

Wrong. Know why? Your mortal sin needs to be forgiven before you can not be violent. Once it is forgiven, there is NO sin or fault of killing so in that case it is not “EVIL not leading to evil”. It is “EVIL becoming NOTHING leading to NON-VIOLENCE if you like”.