milod789 I think YOUR comments are offensive if anything.
I am not out of balance and I don’t know if YOU are cause I don’t want to JUDGE you LIKE YOU JUDGED ME.
Putting words in my mouth again - I never said that.
Want to define evil - because I don’t think I told you how I define it.
Evil comes from the heart, I already said that. Evil is the refusal to accept God and his laws too. There are good people who don’t know God but in their hearts the good that is in them comes from Him.
Being ‘good/bad’ has nothing to do with ‘opinion’ or ‘thinking differently’.
A society which has a complete level of goodness - think heaven - does no evil acts, lives in peace and love among itself.
that statement is reeks of judgement, accusation, finger-pointing, and is generally offensive
prove it
i’m done w/ this thread. i have presented and defended my views in a manner that i am quite satisfied w/, if my strongest opponent is clarkkent, i’ve defeated him about 20 posts ago, thank you bows
Oh of course… if we are sharing dreams with fellow humans the only damage done is psychological… or if they are unconscious creations or whatever, we affect our minds in some probably unknowable way… maybe like a guy represents a certain symbolic message to you, and you attack that message? Who knows.
If there are “real” like, … beings out there… I do suppose maybe you could manage to literally kill them while dreaming though.
My problem is the sex is unrealistic, their bodies don’t look right, and it usually doesn’t feel good at all. If i’m in an ND it can, but the realism usually isn’t there.
Most of these dreams are better as NDs, but yeah… enacting a movie can be fun… I usually leave that up to my mind becuase it’s better at putting me in fun scenarios than I am.
Yeah…
People need to realize that the only reason they are -ians is because they were BORN INTO THAT FAITH (now obviously there are many exceptions) It’s like for me… you know… as kid… it was like… well… my mom told me about God and Jesus… why would she lie to me? Why would she make things up? Kids aren’t paranoid and untrusting, they’ll believe whatever little thing you say to them. SANTA CLAUS ANYONE? There is no room for rationalization in a childs mind, when information is put into it as soon as it begins developing.
So it was like, everything I thought I believed, I did NOT believe… they were just the beliefs of my parents, and then when I got older, very loosely various youth groups, they were THEIR beliefs, NOT MINE.
Becuase I had never been given a choice… it’s not like learning to walk where you try out every configuration there is until you get it right… your parents don’t say “here now son, let’s go down to the store and you can pick out your own religion” they GIVE YOU ONE.
You are, whatever your parents are… most people never realize that, think they were “lucky” to be a _______________ and so glad that they aren’t a _________________.
(okay now this isn’t always true, it depends on whether society encourages people to question, but America, though not dominated by christians demographically… is still firmly rooted in conservative and religious ideology… so it just kind of depends here… if you live in certain areas you might rebel against religion… if you live in othe areas you might “rebel” by listening to Christian Rock and skating…much to the dismay of your southern grandpa who hates rock music…
It just really depends… but there are a good number of people that never question their beliefs, rather, just stick with the ones they were given, or question some of them but feel too afraid to choose their own given the wide scope of different options out there.
(this is directed toward intolerant christians i know in real life) If you people were born in the middle east, you’d be what you consider to be “evil” right now!!! And you know what… YOU’D HATE what you are right now… you’d be a polar opposite.
But you’d still be a conservative hateful and intolerant person… just on the opposite end!
They fail to realize this… I don’t know why we have the lives we do, MAYBE IT IS AN ACT OF GOD… if so, that would be like he condemns most of the world to hell at birth… but I mean… these people rationalize it like “oh God found me, I dodn’t find him” well then why ddin’t God find all those African kids that are dying of AIDS?
You know? You are LUCKY to be where you are, and if you were somewhere else, you would be a religious zealot all the same, just of a different creed…
People cannot fathom themselves becoming “silly pagans” they speak down on them like trash, but you know what, just be born somewhere else and you’d be saying the same about christians…
If you do not question your faith, you don’t deserve to have one, because you believe whatever THEY want you to believe.
For example, how do we not know, that Jesus already came back, we are in the aftermath of the end, the world is run by the anti-christ, and he polluted Jesus’s texts and the Bible in order to get you to believe the way you do now?
Because some of them are like, so blind, that they never ever stray or wonder “why” because doing so is a sin… I mean, they are completely and totally brainwashed and manipulated… what they don’t realize is that, over time, there could be a movement to drastically (but gradually) change key portions of the Bible to instill control in people, and 50 years from now, if you were born then, you’d be effectively brainwashed… how would you know what happened? We alter original text so much with translations for example, it could be part of a movement to change people’s ways of thinking.
But how do you know you aren’t already? Did you exist back then? Are you going to blindly trust greedy churches full of sex scandals and bloody pasts to tell you what to believe?
Until you question everything about yourself, you are not an invidual in terms of what you believe in, you are a reflection of everyone else.
Even after you question there is only so far that you can cast yourself away from the mold… well without going insane !
But anyway… I’m not the first person to realize this either, I’m just spouting off things that I sadly had to be told in order to understand…
“To think for yourself you must question authority.” - Timothy Leary.
“And in my darkest moment fetal and weeping, the moon tells me a secret, my confidant… as full and bright as I am, this light is not my own and, a million light reflections pass over me.” - Tool, Reflection.
It’s sad, but I owe my new found “self” to that band… it’s a crazy and sad paradox that you tend to need to TELL people to think for themselves… (but hey i was still fairly younger back then, maybe college would have opened my eyes if they didn’t?)
Oh well… maybe this post will spark some inner reflection in people… if what you believe in is worth beliving in, then it will withstand vigorous and incessant questioning… but you have to be open about it and look at the other possibilities, other points of views…
How does it hurt to question? It either affirms your faith, or shows you that you have better things to spend your time beleving in. That’s how you grow.
Your post was a little bit long and a little hard to follow but, I agree with most of what you said though I don’t understand what it has to do with the topic. I might have missed something though. I know what you mean about people being victims of circumstances. I wok as an advocate for people who are disabled, suffer from mental illness, or otherwise disenfranchised. I have seen the problem people face first hand. (Just so that you know I have engaged in many acts of civil discordance to fight the system.).
Any way If you really believe that you may harm a real person in your dreams then don’t do it. I never said you should. I was just saying that there is no harm if you do. Not to your self, other people, or your soul. When this topic started I mearly suggested that you can learn from your negative dreams as much as you can from your positive ones. That it is ok to (pick you negative action) in a LD because it a safe place to explore those feelings. However, unlike Clark Kent I do not try to force my views on anyone else or threaten you with the wrath of god. Feel sorry for him and have understanding. Understand that he cant help it. Almost like brainwashing. I have many strongly Christian friends and none of the would spew the kind of garbage that comes out of his mouth. I am not sure where you come from but, not all christens are like that. As I said I have Christian friends and though I do not share there beliefs I respect them and there views as they respect mine. Any way this is off topic slightly but, I want you to have some balance today. After this I suggest that you don’t read this thread anymore today. Read something that is more uplifting, funny or what ever to help you get back in ballance.
I will still be here tomorrow and this debate will go on for a long time i am sure. ( ok so I am telling you what to do. This will be the only time though ) I just sense that you need a break from this debate, I could be wrong. If I am fell free to ignore my previous advice.
Clark Kent:
Researched by who ??? Name the study !!!
No !!! It does not have to !!!
If a person commits a crime or ( sin ) it does not necessarily lead to more crimes or sins. I work with people in the criminal justice system every day. I don’t need a study to tell me what I see with my own eyes. “One thing does not necessarily lead to another”. In fact many people become better people because of there mistakes. This is coming from experience not a study. I have seen it. You appear to have the complete inability to see beyond the black and white. In the real world you will find life is mostly in the gray. Maybe when you have actually done something rather than “study it” you will learn.
REALLY ???
Think of the crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the witch trials just to name a few. This is what happens when society believes they are the judge for good and anyone who does not agree with them is evil !!!
Hh that right they can just go to confession and wipes the slate clean. How convenient that must be for you.
oneiromancer
Ha I thought I bet him long before that. LOL
Or maybe that was on the other thread. I get them confused.
milod is judging me obviously as well as my faith.
The ‘garbage’ you called is part of my faith (check out your catechism) and I even copied parts of it here. IT WAS WRITTEN BY THE POPE FYI!
I respect your beliefs and nowhere did I say otherwise. You keep putting words in my mouth. No way to debate…
About venial sin leading to mortal sin. I quote… The Pope. He wrote that in the catechism, as did most saints, even philosophers. St Augustine did too.
Nice guy that one. Really. He wrote that it did too. Why don’t you go all out and attack him now. Feel better?
So please ask the Pope to do the research if you feel like but he did do the research plus he’s infallible on these matters.
I do not need the research or the proof though it exists. I have faith, so thank you once more - don’t feel sorry for me. I do feel sorry for you if you refuse God’s mercy and love however.
Don’t bring up stuff which is not the teaching of Christ or the Church because you only look more silly when you do that. As if Christ ordered people to kill.
My REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE working with real people proves your statement to be completely untrue. I do not require a study, I see it and experience things for my self. I have a mind of my own and can think and observe things for my self. Where as all you can do is turn to a page in a book a quote scripture will I could do that as well and it proves nothing. You appear to have no experience to draw on to prove your arguments.
The only person here doing that is you.
No, at least not compleatly. Not without critically questioning the information and sourse of the info etc.
Where is this great proof you keep talking about ??? So far you have not proved anything !!!
To quote our dear friend, Mercutio: “A plague o’ both your houses!”
I wish you guys would quit this incessant arguing! When is enough enough for you? Who keeps monitoring these DC-threads-turned-religious-debate loops and doesn’t lock them? At this point, we are far from the topic and the ranting keeps going. “Break the cycle. . .” SOMEBODY be brave enough to say, “Okay. You’ve said your piece and I’ve said mine. Nice chatting with you.” and be DONE with it all? Being the bigger person is having the ability to let go.
Or one of the mods be brave and give them both warnings for posting off-topic religious posts that no longer has nothing to do with the main topic (if they ever did) - a mod has already cleaned this topic once and yet you STILL continue to post off-topic religious posts - in my eyes that is straight up warning street.
Now are you going to act mature like grown ups, or do i have to send you both to bed without supper?
As for the actual topic (if anyone remembers what that was about) I think killing dream characters is a perfectly HEALTHY thing to do, in dreams we can release that frustration which has built up through out the day in a safe and controlled way. After all who gets hurt? No one.
Violent dreams and violent art/games/movies etc., does not breed violence it never has and never will. Violent art has always breed from violent life, not the other way around releasing frustrations in dreams through killing/harming imaginary people is perfectly natural and perfectly safe. Not doing so and bottling all these frustrations up is what causes people to act violently in real life granted there are many other ways to releave that built up agression, many people find sports a good release.
Now killing dream characters for fun (or video games) is totally different to doing it in real life. The only people that would kill in real life because they did in a dream/game are those with extremely low morality and conscience, in which case they would probably if killed eventually anyways. Those who find dream killing fun, that are of perfectly sound mind, do so because they know there are no consequences and therefore need not worry.
[color=indigo]I agree completely that killing dream characters is a fun and healthy thing to do MOST of the time. But the above statement is wrong. Try telling it to the parents whos kids died while another kid shot them, influenced completely by games. He got so obsessed with it, he did it IRL. Sometimes it CAN breed violence, and it already has done. But this does rarely happen, and in most cases the person/s it has affected already has psychotic problems. Healthy people can tell the difference between waking reality and fantasy. But there are many people out there who can’t. So my opinion is: if you are completely sure you are sane, do it. If not…then…don’t shoot me?[/color]
Fair point but i did say The only people that would kill in real life because they did in a dream/game are those with extremely low morality and conscience, in which case they would probably if killed eventually anyways. I should have really added psychotic disorders in there too but it’s 3:11 am lol leave me be
exactly. People with psychotic problems are very impressionable even non-violent things can cause them to commit violent acts so to say it’s purely down to violent games/movies would be a little inaccurate, it’s just in the aftermath people say “i was playing this game/watching this movie” and people stop listening to the rest. That said even pacman could be concidered “violent”
I would genuinely be intersted in finding out how many violent crime were committed “because of voilent games/movies” where the guilty party was totally sane and of stable mind however or at least of the age of 15. - this also includes those who aren’t sociopathic.
I’d be more interested in knowing why they allowed them to play violent games anyways. Children and psychotics are the two most impressionable minds and a psychotic child allowed to view/play anything remotely psychotic is just asking for trouble.
You raise a very good point, though perhaps it’s a little more complicated than that. Simulated violence is a great way to relieve tension, and have a bit of fun without the severe consequences. At the same time, though, the argument could be made that you’re subconsciously teaching yourself to handle particular situations inappropriately. I know it’s unlikely that an avid video game enthusiast would absent-mindedly ram someone off their moterbike because they were so used to doing it in Vice City, but the effects could be more subtle.
Consider the use of simulated violence as a form of stress relief. The participant is essentially training themself to use violence (simulated or otherwise, the aggression is there) as a means to relieve the tension. This association between tension (anxiety, stress, anger, etc) and violence, may intrude on the person’s general attitude when dealing with realistic problems. They probably won’t reach for the 12 guage, but they may tackle the situation aggressively as they’re used to in a virtual environment.
I don’t necessarily agree with the above, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
I think saying so and so did (pick your action) because he/she watched too may horror movies playing games or what ever, is just a way for people to rationalize there behavior. As a society we want to believe that is true. No, we have to believe it is true. Because what other explanation can there be. To me it is the equivalent of the twinkie defense. First you have a crime now you create a excuse. People have been committing acts of violence long before there were violent TV or games.
I have used my dreams to vent out my frustrations and found it to be very relieving. Even fun and I feel more peaceful afterward. It certainty does not cause me to commit real acts of violence. I believe that Lucid Dreaming is a safe place for people to freely express there feelings and fantasies with out worrying about real life consequences or restraints. It may even be helpful. I think it would be an interesting experiment to see if people who have problems with anger could use lucid dreaming to help control there problems.
sno_isulli [edit to correct sp]
Well said
Your right. I have no idea why I felt I should reply to his post. It was compleatly OT and I apologize. I should have just ignored him or referred him to the thread for those who wish to continue the religious debate.
I’d like to point out that children are not born with a conscience and therefore violent media is VERY dangerous for them be exposed to.
All it takes is just halfway crappy parents and you could have a very problematic kid.
Kids are not likely to recreate violence they see in tv if they see consequences (such as someone being punished for being violent) however if there are no consequences (AND WHEN ARE THERE ON TV? Some guy shoots a bunch of drug dealers and the chief slaps him on the back and gives him a promotion!) they are somewhat more likely to repeat it, and if they are praised for being violent, the child is MUCH more likely to act out what he sees.
The problem herein lies that because our society is so stupid, we really do praise violence in a lot of circumstances, like “it’s okay for a cop to beat a guy that ran form him, he had it coming!” or “people deserve to be raped in jail!” or “our soldiers are good and doing God’s work by killing grandmas in Iraq” etc… we live in a society that glorifies violence in media.
For a child that doesn’t know any better (AND BY DEFAULT NONE OF THEM DO) this is a horribly dangerous thing.
Kids don’t have senses of right or wrong, I mean, that is painfully obvious, most kids for example (via brainwashing) think that drug users are “losers” and deserve to be in jail, deserve to be shot by the police… etc…
Morals? Common sense. No. kids are inherently “stupid” and it takes good parents (which we don’t have a lot of these days) to teach them to separate tv from reality, games from reality, and to filter out all this crap society feeds them that is completely untrue.
A child of a bigot will be a bigot. A child of a hippy will be a hippy (until public schools have their ways with him). A child of an abusive dad will probably end up picking up abusive habits (providing there is no intervention etc). A child of a violent dad will be violent.
We are breeding a bunch of psychotic kids… a study was done where children’s parents and a police officer told them what to do if they ever found a gun, and how dangerous guns are, how playing with them can kill them… then they planted unloaded (and trgiger locked) guns in their classroom… guess what the idiots did? WOW! points at friends head and pulls the trigger
ALL OF THEM played with them… even some of the girls.
Okay, and they were told what not to do and told the consequences of it…
I don’t know what my parents did “right” but they did have me believing th drug/gun propoganda, to run and tell an adult, not touch it, etc… and many times my friends would see a realistic toy gun and ask if it’s real before they played with it… so… we were raised right somehow, but that was a long time ago, and we never watched movies where people shot each other, the most violent stuff we watched was power rangers and ninja turtles.
(which do encourage violence against “bad guys”)
So yeah, something is horribly wrong here with this society… kids should be kept away form that kind of stuff until at least late childhood, and they should be taught that violence is wrong, blah blah blah… but they aren’t.
A noncaring or non-restricting parent letting his kid watch and play whatever he wants is goin to give the child a warped mind at a young age, becuase by default the childs mind is rather empty, growing up exposed to violent media and whatnot is going to be bad for him no matter what… and the permissive parenting just makes it worse.
Until the kids become somewhat mature they should be shielded form that kind of stuff, and when they see it, it should be explained to them that “things don’t work that way in real life”…
I understand what you are trying to say (I think) though I don’t really understand what it has to do with the topic. So before I reply to what I think you are getting at. Would you explain how it applies to the topic: killing dream characters. I am not being picky and I think I know where you are going. I am just asking for clarification. I don’t want to misinterpret your words.
