For all that think OBEs are real part II

Beyond Dreaming
1

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This is the second part For all that think OBEs are real.
Part one has been locked you can find it here:
https://community.ld4all.com/t/for-all-that-think-obes-are-real/6400
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ZEN STORY

In ancient India there was a King called Janaka, who was also a sage. One day Janaka was taking a nap on his flower-strewn bed with his servants fanning him and his soldiers standing guard outside his door. As he dozed off, he had a dream in which a neighboring King defeated him in battle, took him prisoner, and had him tortured. As soon as the torture began, Janaka woke with a start to find himself lying on his flower-strewn bed with his servants fanning him and his soldiers on guard.

Once again he dozed off and had the same dream. And once again he woke up to find himself safe and comfortable in his palace.

Now Janaka began to be disturbed by several thoughts: While he was asleep, the world of his dreams had seemed so real. Now that he was awake, the world of the senses seemed real. Which of these two worlds is the real one, he wanted to know.

None of the philosophers, scholars, and seers he consulted could give him an answer. And for many years he searched in vain, till one day a man called Ashtavakra knocked at the door of the palace. Now, Ashtavakra means “entirely deformed or crooked,” and he got that name because that is exactly what his body had been from birth.

At first the King was not disposed to take this man seriously. “How can a misshapen man like you be the carrier of a wisdom denied to my seers and scholars?” he asked.

“Right from my childhood, all avenues have been closed to me – so I avidly pursued the path of wisdom,” was Ashtavakra’s reply.

“Speak, then,” said the King.

So this is what Ashtavakra said: “O King, neither the waking state nor the dream state is real. When you are awake, the world of dreams does not exist and when you dream the world of the senses does not exist. Therefore, neither is real.”

“If both the waking and the dream states are unreal, then what is real?” asked the King.

“There is a state beyond these two. Discover that. It alone is real.”

Just thought this one fitted well on subject. :smile:

2

Thanks for the great story linnnunhammas! It’s similar to something the great zen master Dogen said:

To follow the Way is to study the self.
To study the self is to forget the self.
To forget the self is to be one with the ten thousand things.
To be one with all things is to drop body and mind.
To drop body and mind is to go beyond awakening while manifesting it
at every moment.

So what’s there when we drop body AND mind? I can’t say, but I do know one thing from my own experience: zen meditation is great for dream recall and lucid dreams, allthough you have to practice for some time to experience these side-effects. So for people with great patience, it’s one of the best LD-techniques in the long run.

3

When we drop our body and mind we will realize our true self, our buddha nature, our original mind, that everyone has inside. It’s clouded with thoughts, concepts, words and fears. When we leave these behind, we can experience our true self, yet it doesn’t mean you understand it.

Oh yeah, zen meditation is truly great. :smile:

If someone who hasn’t tried it and want’s to try it, check out the link in my sig :content:

Linnunh, great story, points to exactly what is real beyond real.

4

there’s no other way to find silence and peace
I’m enjoying every moment of it

5

Im reposting my earlier statement, so we can get the discussion going on. I’d like more opinions and views about this matter:

"Im really sceptic about that in OBE you actually leave your physical body behind and atleast in this point, I dont believe it. All my OBEs have been dreamlike, when Im in my room, my frunature are messed up and disordered, it’s like my “astral plane” is messed up or somehow wicked and I can shape the image and do things I can do in a normal LD, thats why I dont believe its nothing more than a high level LD.

Im not trying to offend/to be offencive against anyone who really believe that OBEs are real or/and that they have something to do with spirituality.

Just give me your own experiences why are you so convinced, that in OBE you actually leave your physical body behind.

And I’ve heard that they have even proven OBEs to be real with some scientifical tests
If so, I would like a link that has the results of the tests and info about the test group.

Thank you."

6

Well, if you have read and give some merit to the Holographic Universe theory then you might say that you aren’t really leaving your body. The entire universe is the same thing as you. There is no seperation just a “relocation” of consciousness.

Yeah? Not saying I deffinitely believe that but its worth taking into deep consideration.

7

You only leave your physical body upon death. OBE is a real-time projection (mind-split effect), not in the physical but in a direct reflection of it, in the buffer zone to the astral. The astral body is only for the astral plane, so it has difficulty holding on to the real-time. Many of the OBEers overlooked this and assumed their physical body was truely left behind. Robert Monroe has indeed disconnected with his body once, but he too missed the fact/didn’t want to tell us/believe that you project. Well I’ve said enough, go read Robert Bruce’s work if you’re really interested.

8

I believe more in this “universal consiousness” theory than that you actually disconnect your body and soul. If you think about it, everything you can see, hear, taste, feel and smell are a part of your mind. The sensory input goes to your brains and is interpered by your mind. So when you are thinking what something is (ie. a tree) you actually think what it is in your mind. Your mind/consiousness is there where your thoughts are.

9

Fascinating posts. I just got through the whole thing, it gave me alot to think about. Personally I’ve had a couple things I am terming as obes for now simply because they seem to be different. They could simply be a different state on consiousness in a ld.

I have come to the conclusion that it just doesn’t matter. For all I know the time I spend “asleep” is the true reality and this is all illusion. We only use about 9% of our brains, I doubt any of has percieved “reality”. Personally if I ever manage to use 100% of my brain and percieve true reality I hope there is a gun with at least 1 bullet at hand. My all time favorite quote describes how I feel pretty accurately.

“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.” The Call Of Cthulhu, H.P. Lovecraft

We arn’t ready to know the truth. We probably never will be. For me I prefer a quest for ignorance rather than truth. I truely fear the day my reality comes crashing down around and I discover the truth.

As for what is reality, it’s all real but none of it is. This is all as real as our senses can tell. Perhaps other beings percieve things differently and all things are different to them but we have only our senses to go by.

I better quit now, I’m really tired and fear I am making no sense. In fact at the moment I’m not sure I am awake, it all seems unreal to me. Either I am almost asleep at the keyboard or this is one really strange dream. Do you ever experience dream symptoms when you think you are awake? I think I am now, everything seems like I am looking through a really low quality monitor, all the pixils… goodnight.

10

I disagree that with the understanding of ourselves and our place in existence, there would come a great maddening depression. If it was revealed to me that my current opinion of life and history was accurate, I’d probably release a small nod in self-satisfaction and go about my life in much the same way as I otherwise would. Unless of course, it turns out that every word of Christianity was true - then I’d probably spend some time making an effort to pull myself away from my current hell-bound way of life. Let’s face it though, that isn’t going to happen.

I hate seeing this. It’s right up there with “Science will never know anything”. What, does that make religion automatically right by default? Of course not, at least science (as a collective group of people working to better our understanding of reliable physical fundamentals, NOT as the snarling anti-God ogre some people have associated the word with) is making an effort to satisfy some of the curiosity. A meaningless existence is one thing, but an existence in which we are simply not supposed to find the meaning is a whole new brand of urinal soap - and I’d have nothing to do with it.

Then there’s the other thing. The point that all this talk about ‘meaning’, ‘truth’ and ‘ignorance’ is actually heavily dependant on the existence of a governing deity. Who else can take you aside for a moment and explain to you the existence of all and everything? What else is there that we apparently are prevented from seeing? I get the impression that (as usual), the basis of that excerpt quoted by Legionaire was highly spiritual, and managed to ignore the possibility that perhaps there isn’t anything behind the curtain in the first place.

Anyway, I was planning on presenting a few of my more recent OBE-related arguments, but it looks like I’ve got work to do. This has been an interesting discussion so far, and I hope to see some more intriguing posts.

11

Regardless of the truth it would come as a shock to a large number of people. Spirituality is irrelevant. If the truth is that we are all just a freak accident do you have any idea how it could affect much of the world. Chances are there would be mass suicide among some religions as people whos lives were based on their religious beliefs realized everything they believed wasn’t true. Many people simply couldn’t handle that revelation. If one religion was right then all the other religions would come crashing down with the same effect as discovering there was no greater power. Finally if it were discovered that there were something that humans hadn’t thought of it would still cause the religions of the world to fall into chaos. Of course most people probably wouldn’t believe it even if there were proof to reinforce one beliefe or another.

Most people can adapt far better to physical things than having their beliefs, be they spiritual or scientific, questioned. You state two possibilities, nothing and christianity, there are far more possibilities than that. You say you would simply change if christianity were right but what if the truth were far different? Even if you could much of the world couldn’t. Things would calm down after a while but there would likely be alot of damage done first.

I don’t think that we are not meant to know the truth, I simply don’t think we are ready. I think that the truth, be it scientific or spiritual, could do too much damage to humanity as a whole to make the quest for it worthwhile at this time. Then again it isn’t likely that we will discover the truth, whatever it is, any time soon if ever (assuming there is a truth). By the time we do discover it, if we ever do, people and society may have changed to the point that it wouldn’t be so harmful.

I accept that any possibility of our existance could be true. There are simply more spiritual possibilities than scientific possibilities that I can think of, more to think about (probably a result of reading things by authors such as Lovecraft). I suppose because of this I am a bit more open minded to possibilities than those who rigidly lock their minds to thinking one way. If that is spiritual then fine. I simply admit that I don’t know, don’t pretend to, and am pretty afraid to.

It certainly may be that there is nothing behind the “curtain” as you put it, in fact there may not be a curtain. Talking about some ultimate truth will unfortunately sound spiritual. The truth could be that what you see as red I see as green. As for the truth about what happens after death the most welcome to me is to cease to exist, it’s also the hardest to imagine, not believe, just to imagine.

P.S. The quote wasn’t spiritual, it is from the greatest horror author of all time (in my opinion anyway). It’s the opening paragraph of one of his most famous stories.

12

After getting some sleep and then thinking about it I realized it seems kind of irrational for me to fear whatever any truth may be. I accept that I don’t know and that anything could be the truth. That being the case I can’t change it or affect regardless. If I have no control I should just accept that whatever is is and not worry about it. Still, I am only human, I behave irrationally sometimes and can’t help but feel some anxiety about it even though I know rationally I shouldn’t.

13

About obe’s being real from my personal experience I have found them to be. I have experienced a lot stuff with them that couldn’t have been hallucinations. I was able to identify a few remote objects with etheric projections which are much harder then astral projections but needed to view things like that in the physical world. Etheric projections are very hard to stay in and not slip into the astral and I usually have a lot of vision and paralysis problems with them.

When I was first trying to do it I had a more experienced projector that I met online come to my house and help me get out and I didn’t see him once I was out but the next day when I talked to him online and he accurately described my house and everything in my room. I’ve also had some things happen to me like being conscious in more then 1 mind at a time with all of them thinking separate thoughts simultaneously and that isn’t like anything I’ve ever experienced before. It’s very common for me when I’m leaving my body to be seeing through 2 different sets of eyes at the same time which can be very confusing.

I would recommend this guide by Robert Bruce which explains AP really well:
astraldynamics.com/guides/oobe/oobe.htm

14

I posted my astral experience on the thread in the Dream Diary section entitled “Victory of the Hellhounds”, which unlike yours was seemingly real and in real time. Everything in my room was as it should have been. I am not saying I had a true AP, but only that it was different than my LD experiences.

15

If there is anyone here that can AP and is unsure that it’s real there are a few things that you can do to prove it to yourself though it can take some time because it will probably require an etheric projection which is difficult.

  1. Tape a random playing card that you don’t look at or setup by someone else on a window so the # can only be seen from the other side, then project and try to look at the other side to identify it and once you see it verify it in the physical. The card could also be placed on a high shelf.

  2. Setup a meeting with another projector and see if you both remember the experience later.

  3. Fly to an area of town or another city you haven’t seen before and look around so you have a good idea of what it looks like then go there later in the physical to verify what you saw. This is probably the easiest method.

16

Traveller:

This is exactly why I think people are underestimating their subconscious mind. When you tape a playing card to a window, even without realizing it, there is a chance your subconscious mind was able to track the card and predict which one it was based on where it was in the deck - even if it was shuffled.

Also, flying to an area of your town you haven’t seen before is equally flawed. It’s highly likely you’ve seen your entire city somewhere, even in the most obscure photo on the wall of your library. You just don’t realize it because it’s not available to your conscious memory.

17

About the card thing the idea of it is to identify a card that your subconscious mind couldn’t possibly know. If your extremely carefull about not seeing the other side of the card there is no way your subconscious will know what it is. About predicting it from the position in the deck that is highly unlikely if it’s shuffled well several times without looking at any of the other cards but to aviod anything like that it’s best to have a friend carefully shuffle and place the card so there is no way for you to see it. I did this one a few times which is hard but I had a friend set the card up in the next room which I didn’t access to be sure that I had no way of knowing the other side of the card. The point is I had no possible way of knowing what that card was in the physical I didn’t even see the deck which was shuffled and that’s how it should be setup.

With flying to another area you do it with a place that you couldn’t have been to where there is no question about that. If you have doubts about a place in your city go to a different city that you have never seen for sure. It’s also a good idea to try going into a public building that you have never been in then go back the next day. Anyone can find a place that they have never seen before it’s not possible for your subconscious mind to know what every place around you looks like then for it to miracuously recall the location in detail when you dream it.

18

One more thing you make it sound like the subconscious can perceive everything accurately, just saying if it was real you’re making it look like it’s impossible to test because the subconscious can supposedly figure this all out. If you set it up well so your mind has no possible way of seeing or guessing something remote then there is no way that the information about it will be in your subconscious mind.

I was atheist before I started obe’ing and proving it to myself so I am very skeptical about this and extremely thorough and careful when I test it myself. I have identified many things that I couldn’t have possibly perceived without being separate from my physical body but I’m not trying to convince people of my experiences I’m just trying to suggest ways that they can test it first hand. If people test these sort things while setting it up carefully that should be enough proof for them. Whether science thinks it’s proven or disproved those are only words the only way for people to know is to open up there minds and try these types of experiments themselves because seeing is believing while actual experience always beats out those words and personal opinions.

19

You just explained exactly WHY I don’t think it’s possible. Unfortunately for most people, seeing IS believing. This is a sad reality, because much of what you see in fact does NOT originate from the physical world. People are quicker to attribute visions of future events or alternate situation outcomes to spiritual insight, and never mere subconscious hallucinations. It’s dangerous, and it’s degrading.

You’ve already demonstrated that you have absolutely NO idea what the mind is capable of, so I’m not going to bother trying to change your opinion. Some people accept the all-answering, perfect solution to any uncertainty and call it spirituality. Others search for the facts, and eventually find them. We can’t always see how something works straight away, but eventually (thus far) everything always falls into a logical and reasonable compliment to existing physical parameters.

For example, it’s possible (in theory) that some of the OBE experiments were actually demonstrations of telepathy, where the subject was experiencing a lucid dream using information available from the thoughts emitted from the nearby experimenters to obtain information about the objective room. It’s not sound, but at least it’s plausible. Although, considering the number of participants to each of those experiments that remain skeptical even after a demonstration, I’m certain there is more to it that we’re not being told. Quite simply, there would be nothing to debate if that quote of yours from the ‘OBEs’ thread was unquestionably true. OBE would be fact, spirituality (and by inheritance religion) would be globally accepted. But they’re not - so I suspect that report was highly exaggerated to look better on paper.

20

In this we are silencing the silence
such a sound of sweetness
In this moment of silence
it is such a distintive sound

Enjoy!