What if the idea of the program is for us to disscover the truth. Imagine a simulated game where the end result was to make the characters disscover there true nature of reality, or would that be crule? Any way acording to the movie us lucid dreames know the secreat, and how to brake the laws of physical reality. Right? I guess it all depends on how strong our minds are.
That does make a little sense Kava.
I has a similar conversation just a few hours ago. For my purposes I will postulate a hypothetical reality identical to our own. This is to say, it began, some time passed, planets and stars and galaxies and so on were created, (presumably as a result of the big bang) and on at least one planet, namely Earth, life evolved. And so here we are. From this point, there are three possibilities.
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Humans will become extinct before being able to run such a simulation.
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Humans will eventually be able to run such a simulation, but will not be interested in doing so.
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Humans will be able to run a simulation of their universe, starting from the beginning, perhaps, or at least the beginning of life on Earth, and will do so in an attempt to learn about their own nature and their history.
There is no good reason to pick any of those possibilities over any other. It stands to reason that humans will continue to be curious, so option three is probably most likely. Let’s say that the percentage chances of the possibilities range from 25:25:50 to 33:33:33. (where the ratio is of possibility1 : possibility2 : possibility3)
For a moment we will assume that possibility three eventually occurs. Where it to be so the simulation would likely contain about the same number of simulated humans in a given time period as there actually had been. Therefore, asuming the simulation were run, any person existing in say, 2007, would have an equal chance of existing within the simulation as without.
So if there’s a 33% - 50% chance of the simulation being run, and a 50% chance of existing in it assuming it is run, then that means the chances of us personally existing in the simulation and not the reality are 16.5% - 25%. Something to consider.
Of course, this is assuming the simulation is run only once, and that it is the only simulation of this kind ever to be run, and that we are dealing only with humans. It also assumes that the simulated reality is similar (or nearly identical) to the actual reality.
Taken into account the assumptions, is is probably more likely than 16.5% - 25% but I don’t want to take it too far.
Anyways, there you have it.
Of course this is dramatically simplified, but I think it’s pretty close to being correct. The most interesting question, I think, that this leads us to is what do they do with the simulated minds (us, perhaps) once they expire?
It’s not whether it’s Ethical to create new life in the simulation, although it’s a valid question. We create new life every day in maternity wards across the world. No, the question I presume to pose is what do we do with these minds, in every way that matters legitimate human minds, after they no longer need to remain in the simulation?
-Hit the handy Delete key
-Transfer them to a sort of ‘Super Facebook/Myspace/Generic social network’
-Use them to test out new programs without having to use ‘real’ people
Presuming you’re a simulation, what would you want them to do with you? Maybe they’ll hear and comply. Maybe we’re in the real reality, and we’ll become extinct first, making it a null point. I hope not; that’d be pretty boring.
EXACTLY Kava- i was thinking the same thing.
@ twilight: sorry but as your post makes since, the real reality wouldn’t have to abide by ANY rules that us mere humans comprehend. There does’nt have to be AI at all. The funny thing about this is that
you can’t prove it right
-yet-
you can’t prove it wrong
Life isn’t like the matrix, to me, everything we see, hear, touch etc. has to be real, even our thoughts are real things, there is no such thing as a “fake” reality, if someone created our reality, than it IS real, and if we were created by someone, or something, our universe is too real to be considered fake. Well thats how I see it anyway
In case it wasn’t mentioned on the boards, a possibility which I doubt (hey, that’s the benefit of the doubt right there!), here is the web page of the KING of all Matrix hypothesis(sp?): https://www.simulation-argument.com/
The only thing I can say about the whole thing is this: simulation or not, killing the Sims people by locking them in a 1X1 room without food and then selling their tombstones is the SHIT!
@ eldwinn - thats extremely hypocritical and non logical
“our universe is too real to be fake”
that makes no since what so ever
thats YOUR opinion… well i believe this is real, if it weren’t , it wouldn’t be really a program, but something more subtle I’ m remaining vague out of purpose (and partly out of tiredness)
greets, sakoda
Sakoda - That only if you are taking programs as we know them. As said before, we have no information about the outer world. It could be identical, and it could be the most different possibility. Maybe, out there is only a single being, capabale of doing everything (God) And maybe a group of “super natural” beings (Polytheism)
But of course, it may just all be a dream…
Hmm… this is quite strange because i’ve been talking about this with Rasputin in PM…
it’s known as Silopsism.
Here are some good links:
consc.net/papers/matrix.html
probablefuture.com/matrix.htm
As it says in the first link… even if it is a ‘matrix’ theres nothing wrong with that… this is a keyboard i am writing with, this is the internet… what i believe to be correct is correct based on my perception of the reality i am presented with. And being lucid dreamers… you should be able to realise that you can be aware of yourself, or aware of your surroundings, or both. Which means your surroundings are in fact there, something that is not directly connected to you, something that will be there with or without you. In our dreams if we are not aware of our surroundings, we will not become lucid… so dont go about thinking that your brain is plugged into a machine.
Saichania: It doesn’t matter if it is a simulation or not, for us it is real. I live in a realm that most would consider ‘fake’ or simulated, but for me it is real. If I lived in the real world then that would be my reality and Mecha’s mind would be the simulation to me. It’s all a matter of perspective I suppose.
Or. how about.
- There are many worlds , not just one. And how do we know if the programer has programed himself into the world.
2.They could be watching our every move and controling us, or they could be letting us make our own decisions from the problems that happen to us. They could be controlling the problems or not.
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They could be controlling life and death, or they could be just watching over us, making sure we don’t go out of the server.
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Also, like in the Matrix, you have to go through the process of getting out of the Matrix, or the program. It could be the samething. We could be in one of those tube things and just being simulated.
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But the real question is. Would you want to know.
Example: You are being simulated. Would you rather, A. know that the real world is crappy and your trying to be killed by AI. Or B. Be lied to, and be simulated and hopefully be safe from the AI, that you don’t know about. Igorance is bliss.
Whatever, its just a thought, a suggestion for everyone to think about.
You don’t have to belive this is what is real. I don’t even, but whats so wrong about thinking about it?
The many worlds theory, aside from being popular with several quantum “mechanics” is probable because suppose that simulation to the degree of real-ness we experience is possible, than what are the chances that there is only ONE simulation running? Hey- maybe we are in a simulation, but maybe we are the “Real Deal”, and in a couple of years we could be running our own simulation. I wonder wether those simulated creatures will discover the phenomenon of LDing, and open net forums to discuss it, and then, one of them will think of the matrix possibility. They will discuss it in a very heated debate and we’ll just sit one universe up and laugh at their attempts to resolve the question of what the hell is going on.
I think that if we are simulated- we are not simulated by humans. Humans tend to be a little clumsy when it comes to electricity, backing-up data etc. A human simulation will probably get re-booted every day, thus creating a new universe every day (and destroying one because SOMEONE didn’t pay the electric bills).
Introduction: hello im jim, i’ve been reading these forums for a while now and i feel i have something to add to this discussion on perceptions of reality, i myself am only 17 some of you elders may laugh upon this with skeptics and qwerks, some of you may even know alot more on the matter then me (i hope some do because im pretty bad with words) please have the patients to read all of this even if you know it already. perhaps you could even help me.
firstly i would like to point out some of the links posted previously about ‘the matrix’ (probablefuture.com etc) are very leading to the extent of obsession, to the extent of liability on another, the website although shows a lot of scientific facts quantum physics including consciousness continues after brain is declared dead does miss a very KEY factor in this whole ‘martix’ (im using the term metaphorically) which is the independence of oneself. (enlightened independence)
Most of you probably already know the brain cant distinguish between its thoughts and what it perceives to be real, meditate on that a moment- its also known that you cant have a ‘universe’ (term universe as in reality or plane of consciousness what ever you wish it to be called) with a mind entering in it, the mind is actually shaping the very thing that is being perceived. You may know this ‘belief’ as new age religion or ‘create your own reality’ they do come with some extremely true natures. eg- whats known as “the secret to health” that suggests that a strong bio-chemistry is the result of prolonged healthy emotional states (stress free) i feel im moving a bit off topic now so i’ll try get on topic in the next section.
“Dont ask the question, know the answer” i KNOW you are all that exists therefore you know all things, the illusion is that you dont, so you ask the question, and by asking the question you are accepting the illusion that you don’t know the answer, i believe that when one seeks outside himself he is accepting the imprisonment of his uniqueness, he is led into dependency on others and with that i realize one thing and its been known for ‘thousands of years’ which is life is the dream, we ARE the imagination of our selfs (we are the same consciousness experiencing itself subjectively) im not saying this to freak any one out, if you see past the grim reality of the matter (the fascist states we live in- mental warfare, ‘stress’, abolishment and discrimination of the true beauty of our beckoming)
I know the above didnt explain much about the nature of reality, however i guess im somewhat trying to be ‘Morpheus’ in explaining something i still just cant fully grasp, the truth is i dont remember half the movie of the matrix- back then i thought it was pretty dumb, then i picked up a science book, and realized global warming was all a hype to make us feel more insecure, that we need our government even more, every thought ‘inside your head’ transmits a frequency- the universe responds to each and every thought in your head like Alladin and the guinea no acceptions, yet we are always combing the mirror expecting to see results- seeking outside ourselves for the answer (again KNOW the answer) which keeps us in this circle of day to day life, and we’re pressured from cradle to grave not to find it out.
In a way im saying to doubt oneself is to doubt the very nature of our wellbeing, isn’t that very much what satanists believe? i find a slight sense of truth in that.
What im trying to explain is my perception of reality, many others probably have a similar one, some may not even have one, im saying that we are everything that exists, 1 great consciousness put under the illusion of division, then one becomes two, two vibrates into a slow frequency and wahey we’re off to work and got mortgages to pay? i was hinting to the fact that we are all god, we all live in paradise with peace and infinite love, we’ve just forgotten it.
reality = energy = matter condensed into a slow frequency = manipulated and shaped by the minds infinite consciousness
i wish i could write more but its 1am and i gotta get to college in the morning- hope this was useful and enlightens at least someone out there to read on, i am strongly under the influence of this illusion the same as you, thats why your reading this right now… and i am writing it, just by reading this you are helping us break out of this illusion by storing it in the collective unconscious which will eventually all be made clear. (+1 = +100 more!)
“wether you think you can or you cant, either way you are right”
-Henry Ford
I am religious, however I entertain the idea all the time that a whole set of different species are testing me alone as an experiment to see how I react psychologically with other ‘fake’ humans. This of course is a selfish thought, but it’s what I have always considered. I thought of this idea before the Truman show was released. I am not saying that the people are real actors either, they are fake, like you would experience DC in your LD. It’s just something that I find curious. Anything is possible, and so what I mean is a sequence of events, people, girlfriend, wife, friends, school, tv shows that I watch, gadgets, and even future death is all programmed/planned into my “life”. This would be a very lonely and sad thing to find out, that maybe you or I were the only one of our “species” to ever exist. That one of us were just one of our kind guinea pigs. =(
^<<< Highly doubted though, just an entertained thought. lulz Doesn’t matter to me anyways, I pay little attention to materialistic things anyways. Dream on.
Excellent post Levaithans…
The theory (which I believe to be quite accurate, and is indicated by almost every religion) is that this reality is made up of mind-matter/conscious-spirit substance. That we are all one being which has separated itself into smaller individual parts so that the individual parts can co-operate (which is something we don’t do very well here on Earth) in order for the being as a whole to learn and evolve from itself. Puts a whole different perspective on “the big bang” now doesn’t it grins 
Surely you’ve heard the expression “god is everywhere and everything” well it is meant to be interpreted quite literally. I am a part of god, you are a part of god, we are all a part of god - all those parts combined is what makes god - god. This includes the stagnant objects like a rock, table or chair - except those objects are existing at an un-conscious level. There are differing levels of this mind/consciousness-god it can either be highly aware (thus highly intelligent as seen in human beings) or highly un-aware (as seen in rocks, tables and chairs) or somewhere inbetween (trees and animals). Of course in all likely-hood this will never be proven by science because a metaphysical aspect cannot be measured in a physical sense. But all the clues are there… for example we now describe planets as “astrological bodies” when they used to be described as “heavenly bodies” - this is only an example I am sure I could find thousands more if I really wanted to but I think you get the general idea.
For more information refer to the 7 hermetic principles that govern reality.
joy101.org/03-7-hermetic-principles.html
i doubt it too- Nick Bostrom(the author of the site), Yale university- Oxford university, dare i say it?(might as well) Skull n bones… Masonic influences not only that, the whole smug’ness of the debate- the medias positivity raises suspicion to me.
Akorah thanks for the love
“the illusions of our will and ego locking us into our emotional physicality, battling to the death with our authentic angelic beingness”
Anytime Lev…
The funny thing about the “we are in a computer simulated reality” theory is that a lot of people (including myself) would absolutely love to be able to ‘jack-in’ to a virtual environment where we can play out our desires. I mean… if it were true would it really be such a bad thing? would it be any different from or better than living in ‘the real world’? knowing the truth might set you free, but at the same time might be a burden to carry.
I have a question for you all :
If we could answer ALL the questions of the universe, would you still think we’d be still here?
According to me, the only question that we will not be able to answer is WHY.
LOL, that sounds wierd but when you really think about it, it is true.
mmh , it sounds a bit like the hitchhikers guide through the galaxy…
hey i have news for you all THIS is REAL 
gah, hope this doesnt get deleted …