No sleep? No sweat!

[Technodreamer]

This may have been mentioned, but Non-REM is just as important as REM.

In Non-REM ions fro mthe brain cells are released. They don’t know why, but they know it somehow helps to keep them alive. Then REM replaces these ions by bombarding your neurons with ions. It’s nto such a good idea to just keep doing this, without refreshing the ions.

[philthemn]

NREM is not as important actually! You can live without NREM sleep for as long as you want, hence polyphasic sleep. it is true that there are drwabacks; lower immune system, slower growth and repair etc. but it is entirely possilbe. I suggest you get your facts right before you share your unwitted opinions.

[1984]

philthemn:

Memories are not a sign of consciousness, they are remembering an instance in time, you were there to percive it, but you wernt consciously percieving it.

If you weren’t conscious how come you remember the dream upon waking? When was the last time you remembered something like a dream (with all the attendant features like a visual recall, a memory of words spoken, actions carried out, a plot etc) that you perceived unconsciously?

If you are conscious how can u possibly wake up. If your already conscious, you would just think; “hmm, I might get up now”.

Please explain why being conscious automatically means that you would be aware of your true state, i.e. asleep and dreaming. As I said before, you can be conscious and yet unaware of your true state of mind, e.g. through the use of drugs. During REM sleep your mind is adapted to trick you into thinking you are really somewhere else, hence most people dream without realising it at the time, most of the time. But this in no way precludes being conscious whilst dreaming, and then at some point realising that you are dreaming. I don’t see why you think there is a unconscious/conscious divide between dreaming and lucid dreaming. Surely you can appreciate they are extremely similar states of mind, it’s just that in one case you don’t realise you are experiencing this state of mind, whilst in the other you do.

If your conscious during sleep, you would remember every second of your REM sleep: around 1 and a half hours. Can you remember 1.5 hours of your dreams! I dont think so.

This is a ridiculous argument, you seem to suggest that consciousness implies perfect recall of every second of conscious perception. Can you remember every second of your waking, conscious, experiences yesturday, last week, last year, even five minutes ago? I don’t think so.

Unless you mean that consciousness only during-sleep confers the ability on you to remember every second of the experience. But surely if you have ever had a LD you will know that you cannot clearly recall every second of the experience, and yet you claim to be conscious during this state (which I agree with). How, then, can you claim that consciousness during non-lucid REM sleep automatically means that upon waking you would recall every second. Surely you can see how you could be conscious and yet have a very hazy recall of events from your dream, if any. Otherwise with the same reasoning I could claim that if you go out to party and get drunk, and can only remember certain details the next day you were unconscious during the party, whilst you were probably strutting you funky stuff.

[Presence_of_Light]

@1984

philthemn:

Memories are not a sign of consciousness, they are remembering an instance in time, you were there to percive it, but you wernt consciously percieving it.

If you weren’t conscious how come you remember the dream upon waking? When was the last time you remembered something like a dream (with all the attendant features like a visual recall, a memory of words spoken, actions carried out, a plot etc) that you perceived unconsciously?

If you are conscious how can u possibly wake up. If your already conscious, you would just think; “hmm, I might get up now”.

Please explain why being conscious automatically means that you would be aware of your true state, i.e. asleep and dreaming. As I said before, you can be conscious and yet unaware of your true state of mind, e.g. through the use of drugs. During REM sleep your mind is adapted to trick you into thinking you are really somewhere else, hence most people dream without realising it at the time, most of the time. But this in no way precludes being conscious whilst dreaming, and then at some point realising that you are dreaming. I don’t see why you think there is a unconscious/conscious divide between dreaming and lucid dreaming. Surely you can appreciate they are extremely similar states of mind, it’s just that in one case you don’t realise you are experiencing this state of mind, whilst in the other you do.

If your conscious during sleep, you would remember every second of your REM sleep: around 1 and a half hours. Can you remember 1.5 hours of your dreams! I dont think so.

This is a ridiculous argument, you seem to suggest that consciousness implies perfect recall of every second of conscious perception. Can you remember every second of your waking, conscious, experiences yesturday, last week, last year, even five minutes ago? I don’t think so.

Unless you mean that consciousness only during-sleep confers the ability on you to remember every second of the experience. But surely if you have ever had a LD you will know that you cannot clearly recall every second of the experience, and yet you claim to be conscious during this state (which I agree with). How, then, can you claim that consciousness during non-lucid REM sleep automatically means that upon waking you would recall every second. Surely you can see how you could be conscious and yet have a very hazy recall of events from your dream, if any. Otherwise with the same reasoning I could claim that if you go out to party and get drunk, and can only remember certain details the next day you were unconscious during the party, whilst you were probably strutting you funky stuff.

he’s not going to agree with us, there isn’t really a right answer but for him to be so adamant about his stances, i mean, i wonder what his NDs are like?

he should read Hypnagogia by mavromatis, it helps to elaborate on the sleep == (not equal) unconsciousness notion. Sleep is an altered state of mind, certain mental functions, especially the left brain, are repressed.

Lucid dreaming includes increased cognitive functioning in comparison to non lucid dreaming, but that’s about it.

Dreaming experience is commonly viewed as qualitatively distinct from waking experience. Dreams are often believed to be characterized by lack of reflection and inability to act deliberately and with intention. However, this view has not been based on equivalent measurements of waking and dreaming state experiences. To achieve equivalence, it is necessary to evaluate waking experience retrospectively, in the same way that dreams are evaluated. In a recent study of this type (5), we found that compared to waking experiences, dreaming was more likely to contain public self consciousness and emotion, and less likely to contain deliberate choice. But it is notable that significant differences between dreaming and waking were not evident for other cognitive activities, and none of the measured cognitive functions were typically absent or rare in dreams. In particular, nearly identical levels of reflection were reported in both states.

Although we are not usually explicitly aware of the fact that we are dreaming while we are dreaming, at times a remarkable exception occurs, and we become reflective enough to become conscious that we are dreaming. During such “lucid” dreams it is possible to freely remember the circumstances of waking life, to think clearly, and to act deliberately upon reflection or in accordance with plans decided upon before sleep, all while experiencing a dream world that seems vividly real (1, 6). A series of studies to be summarized demonstrates that lucid dreamers can remember to perform predetermined actions and signal to the laboratory, allowing the derivation of precise psychophysiological correlations and the methodical testing of hypotheses regarding consciousness in sleep.

lucidity.com/Tucson2.abs.html

i don’t know what’s so hard to grasp here, i mean, if you don’t wake up from a dream, no, you aren’t going to remember it very well, if you drive down a highway really tired you might not remember much of the drive either, but that doesn’t mean you weren’t CONSCIOUS

there are varying levels of consciousness, if you wake someone up from a deep hypnagogic state they will remember perceiving things such as music, etc, but if you let them sleep, in the morning there will be no memory of it, more than likely.

hypnagogia isn’t as conscious as dreaming, dreaming isn’t as conscious as real life, and lucid dreaming is about as conscious as you will probably be while asleep.

from least to most conscious.

deep sleep - hypnagogia/NREM - NREM dreams which contain a sense of self - REM dreams - lucid dreams/OBEs/APs/NDEs - waking life.

there is no absolute constant of consciousness, it’s variable, if you get drunk as hell you’re conscious while you’re drunk, you just may not remember what you did the same day, same thing as NDs… (from my experience, and from evidence) now, for deep sleep, for hypnagogics, I understand what you are saying.

but I dream consciously and I’d wager most of us do, the only experiences I have that could even be considered “unconscious” would be hypnagogic experiences, I will only remember them if I wake up from them, or something wakes me up from them.

i do not have a notion of me being there experiencing them, there is a dichotomy between “me” and my unconscious mind… sort of…

when you are saying they are unconscious, do you mean they take place in the unconscious (subconscious) mind?

[mindfield]

I think the loosing of consciousness during deep sleep makes REM non-lucid. Even if it is very short(naps).
I mean, you loose your consciousness then “you” wake up, becuase during REM we know that EEG patterns are the same as in IWL, but it is not you who wake up because you lost your consciousenss during deep sleep and when you enter a dream scene you have different memories, different feelings, surroundings and you start wander like if it were you but it is not really you because you lost yourself. There was a spiritual noise.
Then you wake up and don’t remember it because it doesn’t fits in this time-line. You experienced a lot of things but when you realize that you are in the bed then those experiences erases from you in seconds.
Your consciousness tuned in the right place so informations that seemed to be not useful erased.

In this way you are conscious during REM but your consciousness is not tuned properly until you are awake or become lucid.

And I think on some adds:
-IWL you have stable physical data’s that you can recieve from your body/brain and you realize yourself clearly.
-In dreams you don’t have such senses just light-weight floating imaginary senses and spiritual senses.
So they don’t make a strong sense.
This can be realted to why people who try to develp a continuous dream body have greater success.(dream yoga)
Because they stabiblize the vessel in which REM occurs. So their consciousness can be tuned more properly.
I think the NREM sleep is really unconscious.But I think about what if it isn’t. If you are conscious during it but the consciousness also tuned away from parts of your personality.
If the unusuality of those states makes you non lucid. Black void, no visual data, just existing,…, it is unusual. The more you are accustomed to theese states with waking consciousness the more you will remember them with relating them to the waking world.
Probably the whole lucid thing is about holding the different frequencies of your personality together.
It is night for me that’s why I became so philosophical.

[Presence_of_Light]

" The more you are accustomed to theese states with waking consciousness the more you will remember them with relating them to the waking world. "

well this in particular i agree with, you have to either wake up from an experience while it is happening, or really dedicate yourself to trying to consciously experience these experiences, with the intent to remember, understand, get used to, and explore… to be able to be “conscious” in them.

[philthemn]

well, i’m back at school, so i cant try anything else on this front, but will anyone else try it?

[dd_dd]

Maybe if you do this for a few days since you havent had REM in so long when you finally get a nights sleep the whole sleep will be REM is that possible.