On Psipog. "The truth will set you free."

Psipog. They use pictures of Homer F***ing Simpson to show how psi-balls are allegedly made.

And I should believe THAT site? Please.

Hello everyone,

I’ve been keeping an eye on this thread for quite some time now. It’s a rather understandable thread, I firmly believe if you’re curious about the liability concerning any matter that asking questions respectfully is the right way to bestow upon knowledge. However, after viewing some of the above posts, I’m assuming this is going to get personal shortly, so I figured I’d take it upon myself to introduce myself, and dwell on the topic at hand.

My name is Joe, I obviously run by the alias of “JoeT”. I’m a friend of both Sean and Mad Hatter, and former moderator of www.PsiPog.net. I’ve been a practitioner of Psionics for over seven years now, and have been contributing to the science corner of Psionics, which is known as Parapsychology, for the last few years (Primarily participating in scientific experiments at various East Coast Universities). I’m a certified technical remote viewer and have helped law enforcement twice concerning missing person cases using remote viewing.

I’ve reviewed some of the opinions being presented on this thread concerning the liability of truth behind PsiPog, and to be quite frankly blunt, I’m seeing more assumptions and stereotyping being presented, rather than healthy skepticism and/or educated questioning. Which is understandable. The topic at hand is widely debate and researched upon throughout various science communities and opinionated by nearly everyone who comes across the topic of Psi.

The topic of Psi is a very dynamic subject to dwell upon. The majority of people who question the accountability of Psi often revert to the question, like Genkai has, of “Is there evidence of it’s existence?”, which I’ll gladly respond to. I’m more interested in responding to the original questions, rather then respond to the various other questions that are irrelevant to the topic at hand. The majority of questionable individuals often neglect good old proper researching, before publicly displaying acts of skepticism. However, I’ll be more than happy to direct you all to liable links to further indulge into the topic of Parapsychology.

Dating back to the late 19th century, man indulged in researching psychic activity, along with the various dynamics of paranormal investigation. Research institutes such as; Society for Psychical Research (SPR), American Society for Psychical Research (ASPR), Rhine Research Center, The Parapsychological Association, Australian Institute of Parapsychological Research, Stanford Research Institute (SRI), and many others, have all contributed to the study of psychic activity from a scientific stance.

I myself have contributed to science concerning the study of Parapsychology. For the last two years, I’ve been personally invited to numerous major East Coast universities, and parapsychology research institutes to participate in various experiments concerning the various dynamics Psi has to offer. Such experiments where based on abilities such as remote viewing, psychokinesis, telepathy, (etc).

I always chuckle when one of my members or friends states “You’ve proved the existence of Psionics once and for all!”, because that’s far from the case. My contributions to science, as well as anyone else’s are stepping stones in further investigating the topic of Parapsychology. Science is a process, and that’s overlooked by many. A lot of you folks want to see evidence of the existence of Psionics, and as Sean has stated, there is plenty of evidence. You just need to research.

But what is evidence? If you hold a strong belief in something, are you really going to convert to a particular belief or faith because of a few Quantum or Parapsychology experiments? No, I don’t believe so. But what could be accomplished when gathering evidence of a possible existence of a particular subject (Parapsychology, in the case), possibilities can me more opened in the observers perceptional intake.

Can we currently state that Psi is a proven existence? Absolutely not. But what we can certainly say with ease, is there is a profound amount of evidence leaning to the possibility of it’s existence.

How many subjects are known as “real” that science can not fully understand? Tons! A good one for example is electricity, another is a bumble bee flying when general physics says that’s impossible. I can list hundred of examples which would signify that not all things that are claimed to be fully understood, in actuality isn’t. At least from a scientific stance. Does that make them any less real? No. But again, this is why we have science. To further investigate subjects that humanity is curious about, to advocate factual information, and overall general knowledge.

Parapsychology is no different. The advocate of Parapsychology is to bestow upon gathered information, driven from research experiments to contribute to the overall investigation of psychic activity, and other various paranormal functioning. Like any other science, this is a process. And like any process, this will take a significant amount of time before conclusions are put together.

I’ll gladly present various links that I personally think will enlighten anyone interested in learning about Parapsychology. It’s an interesting topic to investigate, my only hope is that the majority of you will yield with displaying acts of criticism and/or skepticism before fully understanding the topic you’re focusing on. Enjoy these links:

  1. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapsychology
  2. parapsychology.org
  3. parapsychologydegrees.com
  4. rhine.org
  5. perso.orange.fr/basuyaux/parapsy_eng/links
  6. biomindsuperpowers.com
  7. espresearch.com/
    8.) parapsych.org/
  8. princeton.edu/~pear/
  9. arxiv.org/abs/physics/0003044

That should get any avid researcher started. Now onto the topic of PsiPog.

As Sean has noted several times, PsiPog was not created to prove, nor disprove Psionics at all. The main advocate of Sean’s web community was to collaborate information based on the topic of Psionics so any reader came come up with their own conclusive opinions based on the topic itself. PsiPog is known for the “How-To’s” of Psionics, does that advocate that PsiPog is stating “It’s real” based on advocating techniques? No. Nor was that implied anywhere on the website.

What was, and still is presented on PsiPog is a collaboration of information for any reader to bestow upon to gather intelligent information based on the topic of Psionics from numerous creditable sources. PsiPog stands for Psychic Students In Pursuit Of Guidance, this acronym doesn’t imply anything other then guidance to the practitioner or the curious to his or her own conclusive opinions based on the given information on the site.

Although PsiPog as well as other web communities around are criticized, their initial intentions shouldn’t. We’re not advocating that Psionics is at all factual information, nor do we imply that. We’re simply asking any curious individual wishing to personally investigate the subject for themselves to come up with their own conclusions based on research and personal experience. PsiPog contributes to the reader in various ways: Creditable information from intelligent sources, How-To’s (For the simply purpose advocating personal experience), and communication. PsiPog was and still remains an open creditable source of information to visit if anyone is interested in a conjunction of information based on Psionics.

That’s all. If someone doesn’t like the displayed information on that website, an exit can be easily accomplished. Please don’t neglect the red [X] emblem on the top right hand corner of the screen :happy:

It’s easy to criticize someone, or something without fully understanding the topic in totality. Although criticism and skepticism is certainly understandable, respect and willingness to listen to another’s perspective should always be obliged. I’m seeing people on this thread getting personal, please stop. We’re certainly not getting personal. I think you’re all a bunch of fine and intelligent people, let’s remember to stick to the topic at hand, and not throw accusations or ridiculous assumptions such as questioning another’s mental health (Unless you’re qualified to make such statements, don’t.), ability to be truthful, (etc) without having probable cause. Don’t confuse probable cause with assumptions. There’s a fine difference.

Like Sean, I’ve dealt with this same topic hundreds of times before. Many can be read online in various communities. The topic gets quite old after years of continuous contribution to the same, never ending topic. So forgive me if I conclude this post short.

I respect criticism and skepticism, as long as it’s displayed in a respectful and healthy manner. However, what I ask all you is to do your own research based on this topic before coming to any conclusive opinions. If you’re curious, learn. Learning is a wonderful thing. You might conclude that Parapsychology, and psychic activity in totality is fake, that’s fine. If you did your fair share of research and you’re displaying your skepticism in a healthy manner, good for you. I commend that. Just remember that there’s no one topic in this universe, that humanity agrees on in totality. Everyone has a right to their own opinion and perspective on any topic. Just remember to respect theirs, while still advocating your own in a healthy manner.

I must say I’m a fan of this website. I think it’s great source of information to visit regarding the topic of lucid dreaming. PsiPog, as well as my own community links this website. I’m certainly happy to have finally posted here :smile:

Take care,

~ JoeT

@Paradise Lost: Is there a rule saying one can’t use humor to express ideas, or to make things more relative to the general public and pop culture to try to ease that transition from indifference to curiosity?

For those of you interested in the topic of reality (things like our perception, subjective reality, consciousness, etc), check out Stevepavlina.com. It’s fairly large, many of you might be avid readers already.

Its just that whenever I begin to think about things like Psionics, it stirs curiosity about reality and other topics. I believe he also has some LD stuff there, and some detailed info about polyphasic sleeping.

I know it has been said by me and several others here, but I can’t stress enough how refreshing it is to discuss ideas on a forum where people are open to what the other person is saying rather than just waiting for their turn to bash their “opponent.”

People who blatantly insult the ones who take the time to form intelligent arguments without bringing anything worthwhile to the debate are the ones who hinder understanding and openness. Those are the ones who are truly trapped in their “mind maze.”

“The more I know, the more I realize I don’t know.”
Paraphrased Proverb

-Jesse

There’s something called credibility, something which the following and the site’s approach promptly destroyed:

Turning people off with stuff like pictures of Homer Simpson is not the best idea when trying to explain something. Usually, you have to take a serious approach about something if you want to have a shred of credibility.

Stuff like that makes it look like a joke page, or worse, a joke site.

I may be open to what people have to say, but these attitudes in such circumstances make me lose all will to look further into the matter. It may or may not be the case of Psipog, but what is worse in these circumstances is, most of the time my assumptions turn out to be right.

See you when the discovery of psi is all over the news.

That’s not true, not for everyone anyways. What about the countless political satires that bring light to very serious subjects? Humor can lighten the mood when dealing with a particularly serious or dry subject. Regardless of whether humor turns you away or not, Psipog obviously had somewhat of an effect on many people. Are they wrong for not exiting the site when they saw the Homer Simpson pics?

You have already assumed that you are right. Rather than searching for unbiased truth, you constructed a reality that may block you from seeing past it. I do this too. Everyone does, I think its unavoidable to different degrees. After all, you have to “go with your gut.” Or is it a little voice?

But speaking about getting scientific credibility, this is not the way to go about it: “I think x, and I am usually right, so unless you can prove to me I’m wrong, then I must assume I’m right.”

As far as Genkai’s post that you quoted, I don’t think that should destroy the credibility of the ideas of Psionics. After all, if you review the entirety of this thread, he was at least somewhat satisfied with Sean’s responses and has resolved to focus some more time in his search.

-Jesse

1. I said my assumptions turn out to be true, not that are true right off the bat. Experience taught me not to believe in anything I read, especially if so volatile.

2. If you are explaining something observable, of public domain, and with even the faintest connection to reality and/or proof to back it up it may be a viable option, but if you choose comedy when trying to explain/prove a very delicate topic with little to nothing in hell to back it up, then you’re not going to be taken seriously.

3. The things Genkai stated are news, facts which still remain regardless of what he thinks. If you read carefully, I’ve taken out any personal opinion part (save for the illusion thing, which is later confirmed by the site’s staff as not being conclusive proof), leaving only “news”.

4. I can go as far as considering the existence of such things, but not believing in them. Not now.

Paradise,

To your points:

  1. Could you distinguish between “being true” and “turning out to be true?” My point is that if you are going in assuming that you are already right, your observations will then be slanted in that direction.

  2. This is an opinion. I believe many people, including myself, are not put off by humor as you are.

  3. I personally don’t see anything in your quotes that was not addressed. Do the addresses prove anything? No. Do they disprove anything? No. “News” is different from “facts.” Genkai seemed to be posting his observations and his experience in disbelief.

1. I inform myself to see if I was right or not

3. This is what I intended to quote:

  • Connelly created the Blog “I am probably insane”

  • Psipog has been archived in August 2006

  • About the videos, “even they mention that the videos will not prove anything to anyone, just strengthen the hope that current believers have in Psi”

  • “No one has publicly demonstrated these powers and become incomprehensibly wealthy and famous”

I do not see how these can not be called facts. Hell, all of it happened!

[edited]

“Psychic abilities aren’t real because some guy on the internet used Homer Simpson to show where the third eye is.”

Wonderful logic :smile:. You’ll have to forgive me for not replying to this topic anymore. I’ve expressed myself - any more replies would just be redundant. Joe had a bunch of nice links in his post… of course, no one will click on them and read the content. How could they maintain that they’ve never seen scientific proof if they actually read some? Hear no evil, la la la la.

~Sean

People obsessively defend their belief systems and will avoid circumstances when the system would be in jeopardy. Resistance to change and all that.

I don’t remember that “heh” being there ~5 minutes ago.

Am I going insane?

Disbelief…

Too many times I have seen, and even believed in, sites which claimed the most diverse things: The Wyoming Incident, Ted’s Caving Story, Zeitgeist, the Loch Ness monster’s most famous picture, The Secret, and the list goes on and on, only to read on another site or Wikipedia, five minutes later, that they’re just hoaxes or totally unfunded claims.

If there is one thing that those experiences have taught me is that believing things just because you read them somewhere on the internet just isn’t safe.

…and belief

But I also read news (from news agencies: sourced, funded, and scientific when needed, information) of things once considered mysteries and now confirmed, like the encounter with UFOs during the Apollo missions, the reality of the MK Ultra project, the existence of cryptids such as giant squids, tasmanian tigers, and giant Congo apes.

Those things have been proved to be real, and there’s no questioning it. They have been observed and confirmed. So, I accept them.

The morale of the tale

I do not believe in internet hearsay, unless it is ultimately confirmed to be genuine and real. If you do not have conclusive, genuine, certified proof, I am not going to believe in what you claim.

Too many times I have done that mistake.

Not caring about something confirmed to be real and agreed upon is one thing, not caring about something which has not been proved to be real and genuine is another. The latter is no big deal. I am going to care when it’s confirmed, by a reliable source, to be a real phenomenon.

And I am looking for confirmed scientific proof, for the bottom line, for the scientific community to say “yes, it’s real”. Has it happened? No. I am looking for conclusive proof. Last time I checked there was still no definitive answer.

When that statement will change, I’ll believe in it. There can be experiments and proof, but nothing definitive. I want irrefutable evidence. A reliable third party confirming that.

End of the story.

Paradise, people who do try to research Psi often risk their reputations, and any successful tests have difficulty being reproduced. It’s just very difficult to test, scientifically at least.

As long as it’s not confirmed, I’m going to believe in it like I believe in Santa.

If it is confirmed, fine. I’ll be the first one to devote all my life to hone my skills and use them for my personal gain.

Until then…

I don’t mean to be blunt, but don’t lecture me please.
I have ‘done some research’ and I would not have said what I said if I hadn’t.

Look at it this way; why on earth would a serious scientist pass up the opportunity to prove the existence of such things? Why would his or her fellow scientists not acknowledge or reward such a discovery if it were to happen? Excuses like “it has been proven,” or “if it is proven no other scientists will have anything to do with it,” are just cop-outs; if you are for real then you’ve got nothing to worry about when it comes to the skeptics.

Furthermore, you’ve got me questioning whether or not you understand what skepticism is…it’s not a position that someone just stays at, basing some ‘model of reality’ off of…skepticism is a process which forces us to ask questions and learn new things. A real skeptic isn’t someone who staunchly rejects all things new and mysterious, a real skeptic wants to learn about those things.

If there were evidence that was convincing enough and scientifically sound enough for something like psi, I would believe it. So would the thousands of honest and open scientists on the planet. Science, after all, has made all sort of counter-intuitive and absolutely mind boggling discoveries over the past few thousand years (and I mean mind boggling!)…it just escapes me how some people think that scientists and skeptics are not open to strange new possibilities, especially what you consider science has uncovered…in this sense I think you’ve got your own maze to break out of, no offense.

Paradise Lost: I’d advise you to lighten up. Remember that people look into these things to fulfill a need for something more that’s missing, like a sense of wonder or magic that has been lost through the everyday humdrum of life. I’m sure everyone accepts that you won’t believe until you gain definitive proof, and that’s understandable. Leaps of faith require taking risks, and consequently, many people aren’t willing to take them. Just remember that no one here is forcing their beliefs on you. Defending? Yes. But coercing you to accept them? I don’t think so.

Josh Redstone: Parapsychology is a pseudoscience, at best. Many of the people in the field aren’t respected as such. Sure, some have gained some renown, but they are far and few in between. Psionics, psychic abilities, clairvoyance; call it what you will, it has this stigma attached to it, that anybody who believes in it is either borderline insane or delusional. Besides, since when have great scientific discoveries been embraced and openly accepted by other scientists, and, for that matter, the general public? That’s hardly ever the norm.

Please don’t take this personally, either of you. See, I’m a skeptic, too. And not a completely disbelieving “FUCK THAT” kind of skeptic, but an actual skeptic in that I’m in a state of suspended judgement or, rather, simply uncertain.

I know that parapsychology is a pseudoscience but I said what I said to make a point…in a nutshell, we’ve learned so many ‘weird’ things about the universe that if such things as psi were real (and I don’t think they are), that the scientific community would probably have discovered them by now…and if they were yet to be discovered, they would probably be accepted, even if scientists were hesitant to do so. Granted, it can take a long time…we’ve known the earth was round since about 300 BC, but it’s taken us a long time to get used to the idea (Flat Earth Society anyone?)

So, sorry if I wasn’t clear :tongue: …my point is, if it were real, I people would not be so stubborn towards the idea. The fact that they are says “We’ve been waiting for proof for a while, but the only ‘proof’ only comes to a select few”…something fishy is going on there.

Ex-parapsychologist Susan Blackmore says it better than I can.

If everyone has that mindset, it will never be confirmed.  If you will not believe in it until it is confirmed, why not save yourself a step and either confirm and un-confirm it by yourself, once and for all, by doing some research.

Here is my little experience with psionics. All I have managed to do succesfully in psionis is create a psi ball. I can’t flare it, heat it, cool it, or make it a construct in anyway. But After about a year of un-heartedly trying (randoms 20 minute practice sessions once a month), I sucesfully created a psi ball. I knew that it was true the moment I felt it in my hands - there was no mistaking that for anything else.

Other things I still remain skeptic about - at this point I’m finding it hard to believe in telepathy most of all. As much research and evidence as there is confirming it, there as just as much denying it. I’m not devoting every second of my life to trying to find out the truth (hell, I’m only 15 - I got school to worry about), but I’m more or less on the skeptic side for telepathy.

As for telekinesis, I’ve tried doing it, many times, and have gotten no results yet. I still have hope though, and in my free time I like to look up eveidence to prove it. I haven’t 100% confirmed its existence yet, but I’d say I’m at about 65% belief right about now.

Another skill people associate with psionics is magick. (And by magick, I mean the type of magick they talk about in the bible). I don’t have much to say about it, except for that fact that I 100% believe in its existence and its reality. I try to stay away from it as much as possible to tell you the truth - I completely believe in ghosts, spirits, and demons, and from what I have heard about magick from the christian point of view, I do not believe it is very wise to practice it. But that is my opinion.

Thanks Joey for all the links, it should help me do a little more research on this stuff. I will admit though - it sometimes is hard to read through those documents - not as exciting as some of the books I like such as Harry Potter. (And no, I’m not a wizard wana-be.) And BTW, Mad Hatter, are you the same guy as the Mad Hatter from artoftheninja.net?

Never heard of that site before now, so nope.